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Star Wars Episode 8, The Last Jedi discussion. **SPOILERS**

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9 hours ago, Schneeds said:

 

3.  We've had 7 prior Star Wars movies and fuel has never been mentioned before.  It's not a thing to base a plot around.

Have you not seen Revenge of the Sith? When Obi-Wan was on "pot hole world" he ask the locals if he could fuel up his ship? Before he went off to fight General Grievous. 

5 hours ago, Sneakguest said:

Snoke. I like the way that he died, of course maybe he could have noticed the light saber turning, but in the sometime, over confidence has brought down great leaders before, so why not. But I would have liked 5-10 minutes explain his background story or at least how he recruited Kylo Ren. His evil genius just became a too empty shell.

I would like a minute of an explanation on anything. It kinda comes off like the Half Blooded Prince. When Snape tells Harry "I am the Half Blooded Prince." You are like where did that come from.  But if you read the book it is actually explained. (His father's last name is Prince.) 

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I see there’s quite a few complaints about Luke carelessly tossing his saber. They did that, I think, to portray to us that Luke wanted nothing to do with the Jedi Order-as if his isolation wasn’t enough. It was a jarring moment for me, almost crushing to a certain extent. 

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I actually thought the saber toss was kind of funny.  It made me think Luke was going to be a bit more like Yoda on Dagobah.  That did not turn out to be the case, so the scene ended up feeling out of place.

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It was awful :sick: !!! I think I am renouncing star wars for good this time, it seems to be only made to steer away the expectations of the audience all the way through, and it had so many plot holes, the force is also being overused, I prefered the direction they where taking with rouge one but it seems that didnt have enough light sabers for the fans, episode VII still felt like a star wars movie (since it was made with the very basic formila of copiing and pasting) but this has not the right tone.

I was thinking of giving it a second view but I will save my money for something else with true quality instead, it seems that it was made for that (to make you think: "maybe I missed somthing"), I like to get immersed into fantastic enviroments so I go to these kind of block buster movies open minded but I will take a stand against this and maybe never go back to a star wars screening the same way I never  see transformers movies (yes, it was that bad).

Good bie star wars, I have learned so much of you and earned such inspiration that I can really take of and fly on my own wings with really cool ideas also keeping fond memories of our good times but our relation must end now :cry_sad: .

Edited by Nom Carver

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I want to preface this that I studied film making and scriptwriting in university and its my career, that doesn't mean I know better or i'm smarter then other people at all, it simply means the lens in which I watch films is different because of my education. 

The point of me writing this is to give those who may hate the film some insight on why someone who is trained in this field loves this movie. I speak for myself and myself alone.

~

So i've re-watched the Force Awakens and on the same day went to view the Last Jedi a second time now.

I remember how the Force Awakens mystified me the first viewing before I started to see its cracks that were exposed entirely after a second viewing, so I stayed open to the possibility that the Last Jedi on a second go round is not as good as I thought.

Nope. I realized how incredible a movie the Last Jedi really is, and how awful and clumsily written the Force Awakens seems in direct comparison. People complain that Rian Johnson screwed up what JJ set up, which he actually didnt (JJ never had a story beyond TFA just loose ends for the next director), but The Force Awakens is so simplistic Rian had to shake a lot of things up to keep the trilogy from being a rehash of the OT, which is is really what JJ set up.

I remember understanding the whole story of the Force Awakens, all the symbolism, all the stuff in the background in two viewings, and thats not good writing or film making in the Star Wars tradition. When I go and re-watch A New Hope I still notice new things all the time from visuals to story that I somehow missed even after a thousand viewings, thats incredible film making, not so with TFA. I'm still trying to figure out everything about the Last Jedi and I think it may take years and ultimately I think the Last Jedi will be vindicated just as The Force Awakens has diminished in popularity over the last two years.

~

Rian Johnson has created perhaps the most complex Star Wars movie ever with The Last Jedi, which is filled with incredible depth and beautiful writing throughout. The acting is massively improved with Deisy Ridley and Carrie Fisher allowed to show more personality and Mark Hammil delivering one of his best performances. 

John William's score is phenomenal. Go listen to it (especially the Canto Bight part), every theme from the Force Awakens (a film unjustly maligned for its score) is brought back with new vigor and woven perfectly into Johnson's story and the new tracks are vividly distinct.   

The script is one of the most solid and succinct i've seen in a film in a long time with every part of the film serving a purpose to either move the story forward or to distinctly develop or indicate a character's...well character. That's the first thing you learn in script writing, every part of a script needs to matter, superfluous junk serves to destroy the flow of a film. Superfluous scenes are one of the fundamental flaws of the prequels (and two dimensional writing yowza).

~

EDIT: After writing this I came across an article that I entirely agree with, especially in terms of what Rian Johnson had to work with what JJ left him.

The Force Belongs to Us: The Last Jedi's Beautiful Refocusing of Star Wars

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1 hour ago, Forresto said:

The script is one of the most solid and succinct i've seen in a film in a long time with every part of the film serving a purpose to either move the story forward or to distinctly develop or indicate a character's...well character. That's the first thing you learn in script writing, every part of a script needs to matter, superfluous junk serves to destroy the flow of a film. Superfluous scenes are one of the fundamental flaws of the prequels (and two dimensional writing yowza).

Finn, Rose and every scene they appeared in was superfluous. You could say the constant cutting from this arc to that arc destroyed the flow of the film, it was so higgledy-piggledy - without those useless scenes it would've been much better. Phasma was superfluous. Maz was superfluous.

Some of this movie was very good, some was very disappointing. Nearly every Star Wars movie has been that way. It's still enjoyable but I wouldn't venerate this or the previous

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I have no idea how anyone can make the claim that there aren't many superfluous scenes. Like half of the scenes were superfluous. The script sucked. So many useless scenes. So much failed humor.

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7 hours ago, BrickG said:

I have no idea how anyone can make the claim that there aren't many superfluous scenes. Like half of the scenes were superfluous. The script sucked. So many useless scenes. So much failed humor.

I agree, it felt too much like an Marvel movie, and they put an Star Wars sticker on top of it to boost merchandise sales.

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Hi everyone,

after seeing TFA and now TLJ none of my many questions has been (again) answered:

1. Anakin-Vader was the chosen one, but by killing Palpatine he didn’t bring balance to the force. why?

2. wasn’t the republic after Yavin reestablished or why was it so weak that an insurrection became so strong?

3. Snoke knows the ways of the force. how is it possible. was he a Sith - Ren the apprentice replaces his master, but Vader should have been Palpatines only(?) apprentice.

Seems really strange to kill a figure with so much exciting potential.

4. seems that Luke quickly abandoned the idea of reestablishing the Jedi Order. we know of no other pupils. strange that he gave so easily up or they could have hinted at something.

On the whole the film wasn't that good for me, watching Rogue One was more satisfying. I really liked some battle scenes but I wonder now what the future storyline will be…

I really hope that Rey is a Skywalker after all and that Kylo wanted just to make her doubt/weak… and Luke didn’t tell her anything to shield her, just like Obi-wan did in the past. Time will tell. 

 

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

 

 

Edited by brimbolet

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3 hours ago, brimbolet said:

1. Anakin-Vader was the chosen one, but by killing Palpatine he didn’t bring balance to the force. why?

2. wasn’t the republic after Yavin reestablished or why was it so weak that an insurrection became so strong?

3. Snoke knows the ways of the force. how is it possible. was he a Sith - Ren the apprentice replaces his master, but Vader should have been Palpatines only(?) apprentice.

Okay, let's be fair -- all of these were true of the old EU also, and it's pretty hard to write an interesting story in which there are no meaningful antagonists.

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On 15-12-2017 at 2:10 AM, Artanis I said:

2 That annoyed me. Unless it's revealed somehow later, he's yet another "super incredible all-powerful bad guy that came from nowhere in no time" like all these blockbuster nerd films. That really drives me up the wall.

...just like The Emperor (who got a backstory 16-22 years later) ;)

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I'm still conflicted about this movie. I enjoyed watching it in the theater (aside from the runtime), but looking back, there was stuff I just didn't care for.

- Rose especially did nothing for me, and I felt could've been cut entirely from the movie with very little rewriting needing to be done.

- Snoke's death I'm not sure about. It was a cool twist, but at the same time, we still know nothing about this guy. I find him interesting and want to know what his story is. I guess there's always force-ghost potential in the next one?

- Super slow space chase was super slow! I'm not sure if there was any way to rectify this since it was kinda necessary to bide time for other characters' stories. Eh.

- The humor. Humor is good when used right, but I just felt there was way too much of it. As others have said, it felt like a Marvel movie. I mean, I'm fine with Marvel doing it because that just seems par for the course, but it just didn't really click with the SW setting and the tone this movie had.

- The length. Sorry, gotta complain. It was a long movie. By the time they were having their big fight on Snoke's ship, I thought the movie was almost over. Then I remembered all the scenes from the trailer on Crait and realized there was still another almost half hour left. And the generally slower pace of the movie just made it feel longer than it was.

- And on a less extreme note, Porgs were useless. Personal preference, but I really don't care for the "hoard of cuteness" type characters. 9 times out of 10, they never offer anything outside of comic relief and adorability, and the same can be said about the Porgs. 

 

BUT. There was still a lot I did enjoy.

- I thought the characters were all well written. I really enjoyed Poe's rash, almost loose-cannon personality. Really fit his character especially since he's such a daring pilot and quick decision making regardless of outcome works for him. 

- Kylo Ren. I wanna talk about him. I really have to applaud this franchise for giving us a good villain in cinema. Too many movies these days just have one-and-done villains, and I love that Star Wars is giving Kylo plenty of character development. The whole "he could be good, but he ends up not being" was wonderful. And it really made me happy that he's still very much the villain (even more so now that he's usurped Snoke). Not to mention, his internal conflict mixed with how much of a space Nazi Hux is will no doubt be enjoyable to watch in the future. Hope they build on that for VIII.

- The tone. So much the tone. This movie was pretty dark, overall (which is also why I didn't enjoy the humor too much). The Resistance is all but wiped out. Essentially, the bad guys won. How many times has that happened in recent movies. I loved it. I loved the sense of helplessness the TLJ gave off, and I can't wait to see what Episode VIII does next with this.

 

So yeah, I think the pros outweigh the cons for me. Still, not a perfect movie, but plenty watchable and enjoyable.

 

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3 hours ago, Jedi-Bendu said:

...just like The Emperor (who got a backstory 16-22 years later) ;)

Yeah, but I'd say his buildup and death were handled much better than Snoke's.

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Just in case anyone was still trying to claim Mark Hamill's comments were misconstrued and he supports the new film, he just set the record straight once and for all.

http://www.indiewire.com/2017/12/mark-hamill-hasnt-accepted-stars-wars-last-jedi-luke-skywalker-1201910486/

I don't know why RJ and Kathleen wanted to tear down Luke Skywalker, but in doing so they turned off a huge portion of the fan base and made a movie that just comes across as stupid and out of place.

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On 12/22/2017 at 2:09 PM, Schneeds said:

Just in case anyone was still trying to claim Mark Hamill's comments were misconstrued and he supports the new film, he just set the record straight once and for all.

http://www.indiewire.com/2017/12/mark-hamill-hasnt-accepted-stars-wars-last-jedi-luke-skywalker-1201910486/

I don't know why RJ and Kathleen wanted to tear down Luke Skywalker, but in doing so they turned off a huge portion of the fan base and made a movie that just comes across as stupid and out of place.

Actually that is more then old news but infactual at that. Mark has since contextualized what he said.

Mark Hammil Sets the Record Straight on the Last Jedi

"“That’s the hard part. You don’t want to admit how possessive you’ve become. There are times where you go, ‘Really? That’s what they think of Luke? I’m not only in disagreement – I’m insulted.’ But that’s the process and you thrash it all out."

"SHOUT-OUT to @rianjohnson for no particular reason other than being my friend, collaborator & guru. You quelled my fears, listened to my endless stream of terrible ideas & occasionally used a few here & there. #GenialGenius#ThanksFromAGr8fulPadawan"

Haters, and that's not aimed at you Schneed, have been warping his words and comments he made much earlier in the process rather then his current thoughts.

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3 hours ago, Forresto said:

Actually that is more then old news but infactual at that. Mark has since contextualized what he said.

Mark Hammil Sets the Record Straight on the Last Jedi

"“That’s the hard part. You don’t want to admit how possessive you’ve become. There are times where you go, ‘Really? That’s what they think of Luke? I’m not only in disagreement – I’m insulted.’ But that’s the process and you thrash it all out."

"SHOUT-OUT to @rianjohnson for no particular reason other than being my friend, collaborator & guru. You quelled my fears, listened to my endless stream of terrible ideas & occasionally used a few here & there. #GenialGenius#ThanksFromAGr8fulPadawan"

Haters, and that's not aimed at you Schneed, have been warping his words and comments he made much earlier in the process rather then his current thoughts.

No, that's just from the other day, not the November article. 

http://www.newsweek.com/mark-hamill-luke-skywalker-last-jedi-rian-johnson-757329

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Yes, Disney was not happy with Mark Hamill's original comments, and he got in trouble for saying them.  He admitted this himself.  So walking back his comments and praising the direction that the movie took is towing the corporate line.

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I feel like as someone who is critical of the prequels, redlettermedia has ruined our approaches to movie reviews. There are no neccesaey hard rules for filmmaking in the grand world of cinema and there are many choices one film can make that are a symptoms of its problems but not the cause, and therefore what necessary to one film isn't necessary to another.

I think the TLJ reaction has been truly out of the context of the film. I think a good comparison would be to imagine if the fan audience reaction that The Last Jedi got was the same for the Wolverine film Logan. If that film was analysed in the same fashions fans have TLJ, the film would have been burnt down for all it's different or strange narrative and stylistic choices and pacing. But people let it play out and absorbed the film and understood and enjoyed the narrative and thematic values. With TLJ it's that people want the stuff at face value to fit there expectations, and when the stuff not experienced with joy and taken at face value feels shallow to them (when in context even many of the 'jokes' are reasonable thoughtful) they can't value it because they let those differences take them out of the movie and into the realm of how they expected the film to be interpretable to them as enjoyable.

the thing about the Last Jedi that makes it feel different overal is does not have as many of those moments where you can pause and take a breath and look in awe and say 'this is Star Wars,' but it's also a more intense film that's used structure and writing to be witty in a way that's typically handled in a more straightforward fashion in a Star Wars film. Because of that I think the film feel less Star Wars in the typically way, but some of the writing is more Star Wars than Star Wars has ever been.

One important visual and narrative element is that the films perpespective and character perspectives are constantly subverted. It's fundamental to the films story structure but antithetical to the traditional 3rd person narrative style of Star Wars, but it is used to make a very Star Wars point in every scene and is a big part of the ending--that you are not in control, the 'force' is. Ren, Luke, Finn, Poe and Snoke all have moments when they think they are in control, moments where they think they are in their own (hero's) journey, only for it to be subverted and the larger picture to take control.

Therefore the film makes the point that it's not about you...but the larger world and things can't be taken at face value. It's telling the audience not to get complacent with what is...by constantly pulling them out of the powerful MOMENT for them to see the bigger picture or the perspective of others. Because it does this to the greatest Jedi...to the ultimate villain...and to the meek resistance fighter it reminds us that even in our grandest understanding (and knowledges of what is wrong) our understanding still fails. Luke tries to destroy his assumptions of past failures and has them destroyed anyhow, because the power they hold is not material but within him/us. In the manner in which what was done before cannot be destroyed because it is part of us, the force in the film is ultimately about change, and the idea that even as 'a powerful Jedi' we live with the dark side and constantly fight it: the need to hold onto what we think IS in the moment, rather than aiming for the larger light.

Edited by the last chronicler

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6 hours ago, Milan said:

@the last chronicler

Please remove or resize your signature. It is way too big.
You can find detailed info about signatures in our Guidelines. Thanks.

Your website converted my URLs to actual videos at some point when you updated the site. I couldn't see them in the signature until I got off my phone.

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I quite enjoyed the film. I remember one of the critics who went to the early screenings said both the battles were among the best bits of the film, and I definitely agree. The whole sequence with Leia was also very well done :thumbup:. The whole sequence on Canto Bight was cool, but unnecessary. 

I did like the way they did Snoke's Death, although like others have said we learn nothing about his backstory, which had been teased so well. The final moments of Luke were amazing! The binary sunset, the music, very powerful. 

On 22/12/2017 at 5:01 PM, Kalhiki said:

So yeah, I think the pros outweigh the cons for me. Still, not a perfect movie, but plenty watchable and enjoyable.

I think this really sums it up for me, there were some very good moments as well as moments I didn't enjoy. But overall I was impressed.

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Posted (edited)

So Finn and Rose's storyline is perhaps the most heavily criticised aspect of the movie. 

I personally enjoy that whole storyline because it does one thing Star Wars typically doesn't do, protagonists failing. Failure not due to external forces but by the very choices the characters make. At every turn Finn and Rose make choices that sink them further into danger. 

The show Rebels often presents similar storylines but with the exception that it's characters ultimately succeed. These incredulous successes happen far too frequently on that show and the new canon expanded universe, much to my frustration, so much so I will follow any major story line that ends in its main characters failing. 

As for their storyline accomplishing anything, well that depends.

We get the first post prequel glance at the galaxy's military industrial complex, we get a cool new planet that's allegiance to the Corporate sector will probably tie into the Solo movie, we got a new unpredictable player in DJ, and more then anything if you care about the characters at all we got a ton of character development for Finn and Rose. 

If you think about it, this storyline aacomplishes as much if not slightly more then Han Solo and Leia's storyline in the Empire Strikes Back. Half of that was hiding in an asteroid field and a space slug, a scene I'm certain is at least as long as most of the Canto Bight scenes. 

Important to note the importance and beauty of the Empire Strikes Back is that no one accomplishes any of their goals only barely achieving survival at the end. It's essentially a character development movie.

Can we also talk about how this is the first time the bad guys quickly captured intruders. I salute you First Order Security Bureau 

Failure is the theme of this movie however it's Rose that has the epiphany and vocalizes that true victory comes from saving what you love. 

Edited by Forresto

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Posted (edited)

At the end of the day what matters is if you like it or not and about half the people don't like this movie. I consider that a failure. It's more divisive than Rogue One. It's the most controversial Star Wars since the prequels. It's getting a lot of hate and a lot of love. Rain FAILED to make a movie that is widely accepted by both critics and the fanbase. That's just a fact. The wide appeal was lost. 

If you think TLJ was better than TFA, well I'm not going to argue with you. You're entitled to an opinion. But the FACT of the matter is this movie failed when it comes to being loved by (generally) all people compared to the other Star Wars movies that aren't the prequels. And if it failed at that even if you love TLJ you've gotta ask yourself if they did something wrong to piss off so many people and have so many people just actively dislike the movie. They gambled with a new strategy and it did NOT pan out.

 

The details of the movie aren't super important. We can argue why X and Y sucked or didn't. We can compare the movies endlessly. Opinions are opinions. But facts are facts and this movie is just not getting the love that IV, V, VI, or VII did.

Edited by BrickG

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Posted (edited)
On January 4, 2018 at 1:20 PM, BrickG said:

At the end of the day what matters is if you like it or not and about half the people don't like this movie. I consider that a failure. It's more divisive than Rogue One. It's the most controversial Star Wars since the prequels. It's getting a lot of hate and a lot of love. Rain FAILED to make a movie that is widely accepted by both critics and the fanbase. That's just a fact. The wide appeal was lost. 

If you think TLJ was better than TFA, well I'm not going to argue with you. You're entitled to an opinion. But the FACT of the matter is this movie failed when it comes to being loved by (generally) all people compared to the other Star Wars movies that aren't the prequels. And if it failed at that even if you love TLJ you've gotta ask yourself if they did something wrong to piss off so many people and have so many people just actively dislike the movie. They gambled with a new strategy and it did NOT pan out.

The details of the movie aren't super important. We can argue why X and Y sucked or didn't. We can compare the movies endlessly. Opinions are opinions. But facts are facts and this movie is just not getting the love that IV, V, VI, or VII did.

In what way is it actually a failure?

Its the second highest grossing Star Wars film. Even if you adjust for inflation it made far more then Rogue One, and all it had to do was make at least as much as RO to show success by preventing a downward trend. It absolutely panned out for Disney. 

Half the people didn't like it? Where did you get that statistic from? Can you please cite sources because if you're going to make such a broad sweeping statement you ought to have something to back it up. Especially if you're veiling them under the guise of facts. 

~

If I sound a bit snippy its because I am. 

My problem with the Last Jedi Divisiveness has nothing to do with people disliking the film, man if we all thought the same we'd still be living in caves. Disagreement and divergent ideas are brilliant (as long as you know they aren't harming other people). Its the extreme manner in which it has been done with total disregard to those who may have found joy in it. 

Such as this. Its not enough to simply dislike the film, you have to say its a failure? That's like the people who say it ruined Star Wars or Star Wars is dead. 

I'm not going to say most people loved or even liked it because theres no way of knowing just as there is no way to know the reverse. However in my personal, anecdotal, experience most people I know who saw it loved it or enjoyed it. That does not give me evidence that is the great majority's opinion, but merely illustrates the opinions of those in my sphere. 

EDIT: Much of this isn't directed at you. Its just impossible to go anywhere on the internet without being able to say "I love the Last Jedi" and not be responded to with angry comments. 

Edited by Forresto

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I just watched it with my wife, and to me, a lifelong star wars fan, it came across as mediocre fanfic written by someone who doesnt really care for star wars. My wife, who only watched TFA but barely remembered any details, liked it much better than "the other stuff i made her watch" (MCU mainly). Well, i'm watching ESB on netflix right now, to purge this recent trauma from my memory...

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