Digital Builders vs. IRL Builders

[Eggyslav]

Is it just me, or in Lego communities in general, people who build digital MOCs, are discriminated? By that, I mean, In most contests digital builds are not allowed, and LDD MOC's are largely ignored, while those built with real bricks are getting attention and are praised by many? I understand that software allows some things that real bricks can't do, like making a part in any colour, and that the contest needs to be fair to all the participants. But I can't understand why no one cares about LDD MOCs, it really irks me. Yesterday, I posted an LDD MOC, and no one even cared to view the topic. NO ONE. An LDD MOC was, as far as I know, never featured on the Eurobricks frontpage. Those who have lots of bricks and whole photo studios and whole rooms dedicated for storing Lego bricks, sets and MOCs, do not realize that some people build in LDD out of necessity, that they live in small appartments with no space to display huge dioramas, or they can't afford to buy new Lego sets, not to mention, that in some countries, like Poland (where I live) there are no Lego Brand Stores, and the luxury of Pick-a-Brick is unavaible to them.

In some ways, us, LDD builders are treated like plebes. The IRL builders have an unfair advantage over us, because, paradoxally, when it takes more effort, time and money to build their MOCs, they also gain more recognition and respect, while the LDD users are treated like amateurs and "casual buiders", just because they are not building in real bricks. I'm not writing this to antagonize anyone, I'm just trying to analize this problem, and raise awareness of it. Maybe it's just my impression, maybe in fact those who build in LDD aren't discriminated, maybe it is just me who is ignored because my LDD MOCs are rubbish and no one cares about them... Who knows, but let's get one thing straight: The digital builders are also passionate fans of Lego, and their work also deserves appreciation. And what are your thoughts? Please, do not ignore this thread, it is very important to know your opinion.

[supertruper1988]

I think it is about presentation. I saw your post in the Sci-Fi forum. I would recommend making renders instead of screen shot (look at blue render here in the LDD Forum) and make sure you have a good story to go along. The Sci-Fi forum is also a slower paced forum on here so the content isnt as commented on. 

As for the lack of digital builds in contests, that is so that you are only unsing pieces in colors that are actually produced. Many folks see the digital build as not able to win a contest because its not as laborious to make content. 

[Eggyslav]

I know about bluerender, but I made 12 pictures, and rendering them all would be time consuming. Besides, If it's about presentation, then you could as well say it in my MOC's thread, instead telling me this here. I am open for constructive criticism, but if there's none of it, if my work is ignored, than this is not good. Just like any other builder, I need feedback, I'm not sharing my MOC's so they be ignored. But I apologize, we are going offtopic here.

[supertruper1988]

I mean I wasnt gonna just bugger up your thread saying "dude ur pix sukz0rs!!!11!" but since you posted this topic, I figured that I would chime in. I have had many people ignore my threads as well but such is life. I only have mostly digital designs of modern american freight moving vehicles like trucks/trains/etc and I like to build in the scale of many train builders of 8 studs = 10 feet which is hard but also the creations are HUGE. Just a single tractor trailer is over 50 studs. People dont care about that tho. 

I know that blue render takes a while but IMO its so worth it. The screen shots from LDD are so crowded that its hard to see details but a render makes it look pretty realistic which helps people be able to focus on the MOC and not the low poly and dark screenshots. 

[Eggyslav]

See? Then you know my pain, and the pain of all those who's creations ae ignored BECAUSE THEY ARE DIGITAL. It's perplexing, why is it so? The real brick MOCs are dominant, after all, Lego are plastic bricks in the first place. Are LDD MOCs too niche for mainstream Lego fans then? Is there a way to popularize them, so the digital MOCs would be on equal rights?

Edited November 29, 2017 by Eggyslav

[1963maniac]

I've been where you are, not having the assets to build with plastic. It's very frustrating! I wished for a long time for the software to do it digitally. But, I also know that when you build with Technic Legos, you can put parts together digitally, but it does not always work well in plastic. I have often gone back to the drawing board to re-do a MOC. When building with plastic long enough, a better understanding is gained from the effort. Blakbird always makes sure his building instructions actually work in plastic before he releases them. All great Moc builders do that. That's the reason real  plastic MOCs are more dominant.

[supertruper1988]

I dont think its a winning battle to be honest. There is a general perception in the world that digital is not as good/cheating/easier than the physical. I mean look at modern art. There are some great painters that are painting in Illustrator or Procreate but their work wont be recognized at the same level as those who are actually putting paint on a canvas. Part of that is because paint on a canvas takes time to prep the canvas, pick the paint medium, pick the colors, mix new colors, pick the brush(es), etc and that thats all before there is even one brush stroke on canvas. 

If you apply that to our medium of creating with Lego, you get the same thing. For a digital MOC you "build" from an unlimited supply of virtual bricks in any color you can imagine that are pre-sorted in to categories for you. There is also no gravity so a build might work digitally that is totally unstable in real life.

For real builds, there is so much more prep. You have to buy bricks either thru Lego, BrickLink, etc then you have to sort the Lego into a system that works for your building style. Once you have all that and a blank slate, then you have to build your MOC and wait for parts build and wait and so on. 

I prefer to build in LDD to plan out a build and I even generate instructions, I then gather up the pieces that I have and order the missing ones then build the MOC. If I have a part that I feel is going to be weak in real life, I will test the build with peices on hand before I place it digitally. I also have bought large amount of bulk brick to sort and build with but I dont have a space for builds these days so I store them and will build and rebuild MOCs one day. 

[SylvainLS]

2 hours ago, supertruper1988 said:

There is also no gravity so a build might work digitally that is totally unstable in real life.

The opposite is true too: a lot of builds are easy IRL and very hard to impossible in LDD. Try, well, about any big Star Wars vessel (old or recent) actually (MF, Destroyers…), you’ll have a hard time finding the right angles for all those bits of hull to fit together.

Edited November 29, 2017 by SylvainLS
Correct typo and missing word

[roland]

imho you should primarily build for yourself, if other people happen to like it too you should consider it a bonus. It is futile to try and please everyone.

Just my 2cts from lessons learned while working on my LDraw software and animations.

[supertruper1988]

1 hour ago, SylvainLS said:

The opposite is true too: a lot of builds are easy IRL and very hard to impossible in LDD. Try, well, about any big Star Wars vessel (old or recent) actually (MF, Destoryers…), you’ll have a hard finding the right angles for all those bits of hull to fit together.

I know I tried to do a MOD of 31039 to make it into an F35B and the wings in that alone were a headache i cant imagine a FM or SD/SSD

[EnderWiggen]

On 11/29/2017 at 7:17 AM, Eggyslav said:

Is it just me, or in Lego communities in general, people who build digital MOCs, are discriminated? By that, I mean, In most contests digital builds are not allowed, and LDD MOC's are largely ignored, while those built with real bricks are getting attention and are praised by many? I understand that software allows some things that real bricks can't do, like making a part in any colour, and that the contest needs to be fair to all the participants. But I can't understand why no one cares about LDD MOCs, it really irks me. Yesterday, I posted an LDD MOC, and no one even cared to view the topic. NO ONE. An LDD MOC was, as far as I know, never featured on the Eurobricks frontpage. Those who have lots of bricks and whole photo studios and whole rooms dedicated for storing Lego bricks, sets and MOCs, do not realize that some people build in LDD out of necessity, that they live in small appartments with no space to display huge dioramas, or they can't afford to buy new Lego sets, not to mention, that in some countries, like Poland (where I live) there are no Lego Brand Stores, and the luxury of Pick-a-Brick is unavaible to them.

In some ways, us, LDD builders are treated like plebes. The IRL builders have an unfair advantage over us, because, paradoxally, when it takes more effort, time and money to build their MOCs, they also gain more recognition and respect, while the LDD users are treated like amateurs and "casual buiders", just because they are not building in real bricks. I'm not writing this to antagonize anyone, I'm just trying to analize this problem, and raise awareness of it. Maybe it's just my impression, maybe in fact those who build in LDD aren't discriminated, maybe it is just me who is ignored because my LDD MOCs are rubbish and no one cares about them... Who knows, but let's get one thing straight: The digital builders are also passionate fans of Lego, and their work also deserves appreciation. And what are your thoughts? Please, do not ignore this thread, it is very important to know your opinion.

Hello Eggyslav, I love that you have made this post. First it strikes me as off as I am a IRL Lego builder I only have my legos from my childhood allmost 20years of McDonalds happy meals, birthdays and Christmas I am now in my mid 30s, With that I have always felt restricted on all of my builds as I am unable to put my designs in front of me and actually see the mess of a creation that I have cooked up in my head. For me I see lego like emit in the lego movie when he becomes a master builder with that I am limited to what parts I know of and not the full lego part catalog. I would love to be able to create and build in LDD but do not have the funds for a computer that can run LDD. My point is just be aware that As a builder I see it the other way around. Hope that made seance to you and never stop being creative.

[M2m]

On 11/29/2017 at 10:17 PM, Eggyslav said:

An LDD MOC was, as far as I know, never featured on the Eurobricks frontpage. 

Not true. I got my bmw i8 frontpaged and it’s a ldd moc. I felt very happy about it. Thing is, it is maybe more difficult to get a nice presentation of a ldd moc. But then on the otherhand real life build pictures shot on crappy smartphones also get less attention then studio picture quality shots from a dslr. 

Edited December 2, 2017 by M2m

[Eggyslav]

On 2.12.2017 at 3:25 AM, M2m said:

Not true. I got my bmw i8 frontpaged and it’s a ldd moc. I felt very happy about it. Thing is, it is maybe more difficult to get a nice presentation of a ldd moc. But then on the otherhand real life build pictures shot on crappy smartphones also get less attention then studio picture quality shots from a dslr. 

But still, your case is singular, one might say it's an exception that proves my point, but I guess you're right, presentation is important, but not as important as the MOC itself. Sure, professionally photographed huge dioramas are very impressive, but not everyone can afford a good camera, or have enough space to display them. I think that virtual builds deserve even more recognition, because their authors struggle, yes, I said STRUGGLE, to express their creativity despite their material limitations. Also, the LDD is not an unlimited powerhouse, it has it's own restraints, like limited decorations, or lack of the newest elements, and I don't think we'll get an update anytime soon. An IRL builder who has the money, room and time can go to his local Lego Store, or Bricklink, and order any bricks that were released. But we don't have this possibility, and we need to build with what we have. I, for one, am an unemployed  student living with my parents in a small flat in Warsaw, Poland. There is no Lego Brand store here, and if there was, I don't have money to buy me some bricks, not to mention, that currently we have a general makeover of our apartment, and there is no place for me to display my MOCs. My sucky life aside, I'm pretty sure many AFOLs are in the same, or even worse situation, But we all are passionate people, just like the Uber Pro MOCers out there, we just lack the possibilities that they have, and thus, we are sentenced to use LDD and other programs, and so, we are shunned from this community.

[Littleworlds]

I don't like the idea of a "us vs. them" mentality regarding physical bricks and LDD. I was reading an interview with the designer of the UCS millenium falcon and he mentioned he used digital building tools as well as making physical prototypes for it.

At the end of the day, if you have made a decent MOC, presentation is the key really. That is as much part of the process as building itself is. I have seen some digital MOCs here that look so real that only the colours of certain pieces, that don't exist in reality, told me its not a physical build. And at least in one case it was done with blender, a free 3D modelling software. It takes some skill though to render something in that quality. Just like a 1000€ camera doesn't makes one a good photographer. You still have to learn it.

I can understand some frustrations about the pricing for Lego though. New sets are quite expensive, but at the same time, visits at local flea markets or using "fleabay" can lead to spectacular bargains. Even for relatively recent pieces.

In the end it is really about how you play your cards. If you want to compete with somebody who can drop a four figure sum for a project, then you probably have the wrong expectations. But if you are inventive with what you have, you can still make fine builds.

[Eggyslav]

Yes, I can make fine builds, that's not the problem. The problem is that the Virtual builds, even the really, REALLY good ones are drastically underappreciated, in favor of real brick MOCs. They are ignored just because they aren't built with real Lego. I rarely post my LDD MOCs, but when I do, I do it so that other AFOLs can see it and discuss it's merits and flaws, share opinions and advices, so I can learn from them to be a better builder. But I can't do it if no one even bothers to look, just have a little glance at it. That is what pisses me off, that is the cause of my frustration, that is why I started this topic. Don't treat LDD builders with contempt, don't be put off by [LDD MOC] tag, or raw screenshots, Virtual builders are as passionate and tallented as the IRL ones, just give them a chance, that's all I ask for. Love our work, Hate it, but don't ignore it, please...

Edited December 12, 2017 by Eggyslav

[LM71Blackbird]

I completely agree! I spend a lot of time on Lego Ideas, and I some people won't even support digital designs. I mainly use the LDD because of three reasons. (1) I can't afford to buy tons of bricks. (2) Through the years off brand bricks have been mixed in. As a kid I could care less but now I would never find them all to remove them all. (3) My room is only 8ft by 10ft... that is the size of some people ''small'' cities!

 

And for the people that don't know this, the actual designers at Lego HQ use the LDD to build models and they released it to the public so we could have the same experience!

[M2m]

On 12/12/2017 at 10:29 PM, Eggyslav said:

But still, your case is singular, one might say it's an exception that proves my point, but I guess you're right, presentation is important, but not as important as the MOC itself. Sure, professionally photographed huge dioramas are very impressive, but not everyone can afford a good camera, or have enough space to display them. 

But that’s exactly what I am saying. A good build shot on a crappy phone will also easily be ignored. So it’s not really a IRL vs VIRTUAL feud going on but rather ignorance in case of what appears to be lack of good or interesting presentation. 

[koalayummies]

I have definitely observed the sort of real brick vs digital build comment bias on the forums but Lego Ideas digital submissions for example often reach the coveted 10,000 supporters and have even been selected and produced as real sets. So I agree with others that the presentation, build quality and content have a significant impact and that its not just digital builds being selectively or systemically disregarded because they're not built with real bricks.

I can absolutely empathize with all of the reasons you have stated for building digitally. LDD and all the other programs allow people to build with complete freedom and on a massive scale that the majority just don't have the resources for. Don't be discouraged. Many amazing MOCs built with real bricks average several hundreds of views for every one comment. Even if AFOL don't comment doesn't mean your work isn't appreciated and admired. 

[Lyichir]

It's definitely frustrating. I see people all the time complaining about digital MOCs because they aren't necessarily buildable in real life, but the same applies to some extent to "real-life" models that are glued or use other non-purist techniques. I wish instead of dismissing all digital models out of hand, they'd actually apply critical thought to whether or not they'd be buildable. After all, if a model would be overly large or absurdly fragile, it's usually not hard to tell that kind of thing at a glance, and the same applies to moderately-scaled and well-constructed MOCs.

Personally, I tend to build a lot digitally merely out of convenience, since going back and forth from college I rarely have my full collection on hand. But I still like to adhere to the sorts of rules that would apply with physical building, and build physically when possible. If anything, the digital building is often more of a challenge (despite my proficiency with LDD), especially if I want to work with odd angles or functions that would actually work in real life.

[zor2ox]

I always consider digital tools as developing tool. It is still not a way to make a model. You have to touch, to see and to feel the sturdiness and forces between the connections to have a full perspective to your models. 

[Eggyslav]

10 hours ago, zor2ox said:

I always consider digital tools as developing tool. It is still not a way to make a model. You have to touch, to see and to feel the sturdiness and forces between the connections to have a full perspective to your models. 

And because of such ignorant mindset the Digital Builders are treated as they are. Well, for your information, @zor2ox, not everyone can allow themselves to build with real bricks, as we disscussed earlier. If you design a MOC digitally, and have enough bricks and workspace to build it, or have money to order more bricks, then good for you, you have the pleasure and privilege to be an IRL builder. Unfortunately, the Digital builders don't have this type of luxury, and so we must resort to just digital builds. We don't treat digital designs as a blueprint, or schematic, we treat them as a fully pledged MOC, because LDD is all we got to develop our passion for Lego. We do not have the means to feel the sturdiness or forces, but speaking for myself, I really try to build my digital MOCs as realistic as possible. So, basically you are just saying that LDD builders are a worse kind of Lego Fans, because they don't have, as you put it, "full perspective on their models". And if that's the case, then GTFO from my thread this instant, I don't want such an elitist rhetoric in here. Why do you even come here, if this thread doesn't concern you? After all, you are the representative of Super Elite IRL Builder Master Race, why would you care for us, dirty LDD peasants? If you just came here to trigger me, then congratulations good sir, your stupid, snobbish opinion did trigger me.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Eggyslav

[Count Sepulchure]

I am primarily a digital builder and as much as I would love to say otherwise, IRL and Digital Lego are NOT the same. They may look similar on the surface, but the principles and philosophies are entirely different. Neither system is better or worse - just different. I just can't see how the two can be treated on equal terms, it is in fact a miracle that the two coexist under a single roof in communities.

Another thing is, the technology is advancing (good for LDD), whereas plastics are raising environmental concerns (not too good for IRL).

In my opinion the golden era of digital building (be it Lego or something else) is still yet to come. Just give it some time...

[1963maniac]

 LEGO Is Plastic! When it's all said and done it's still plastic! A lot of good comes out of digital building. BUT, it will still be made in plastic!

[3797]

Use MLCad and render your "MOCs" properly. LDD screenshots look terrible. Also, that space station simply wasn't anything special. That's something that your average 10 year old would build.

Btw, I'm German and the closest LEGO brand store is more than 200 km away from where I live. Not having an official LEGO store in town is not a very good excuse. You could buy a random 20€ set and see what you can build with the bricks that came with it. You don't have to spend 100€/month in order to be able to build nice things with real bricks:

http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=133999

http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=133012

[Eggyslav]

 

2 hours ago, 3797 said:

Use MLCad and render your "MOCs" properly. LDD screenshots look terrible. Also, that space station simply wasn't anything special. That's something that your average 10 year old would build.

Btw, I'm German and the closest LEGO brand store is more than 200 km away from where I live. Not having an official LEGO store in town is not a very good excuse. You could buy a random 20€ set and see what you can build with the bricks that came with it. You don't have to spend 100€/month in order to be able to build nice things with real bricks:

http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=133999

http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=133012

Well, that was a brutal truth bomb you've thrown in my face, I was very proud of that station, I've spent most of my vacation evenings to build it, but if you say it's nothing special, and a 10 year old kid would build it, I guess I'm a rubbish builder and I suck. I AM VERY SORRY, That you didn't like my "MOC" (Do the quotation marks imply my creation doesn't deserve to be called MOC?). Oh, wait, no I am not sorry. NOT AT megablocking ALL. I don't care about your stupid condescending remarks, I made my digital MOC (without quotes), and I'm 100% satisfied with it. And if you have no feedback for me other than "hurr durr Ur MOC sux0rz use MLCad u stupid feg", then, Mein Freunde, GO. megabluck. YOURSELF. I asked for CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM, not for thrashing, argumentation ad personam and ridicule. Jeez, I though Lego Community was a friendly one and free of trolls...

 

And getting back to discussion, @1963maniac, Your post doesn't bring any merit to discussion. Yes Lego mainly is plastic bricks, but Digital builders are also part of this community, and they also deserve equal rights and respect.