Kolonialbeamter Posted November 22, 2017 Hi mateys, just a micro build today El Palacio de la Ribera - The Riverside Palace in Londa, Mardier Located in the center of Mardier's capital on the northern bank of the river Minho, the Riverside Palace is perhaps the most dominating structure of Londa's skyline. Its origins can be traced back to the times of king Alphonse IV's reign, when Mardier's kings used to live in a large castle in the rural countryside. In an effort to increase royal authority over the capital, the crown expropriated a local noble, took possession of the land, and started the construction of a palace for the king to have proper accommodations when residing in Londa. Over time, the Riverside Palace grew in size and importance to the royal family, and since Alphonse X all Mardierian kings - with the exception of king Harln - have permanently lived within its walls. The palace has seen numerous extensions and has adapted various architectural styles during its existence. Fortunately, it has survived the devastating Mardierian civil war almost unscathed - even its vast collection of priceless paintings and pieces of art is said to miraculously be intact. One can only speculate how the royal family managed to overcome the ruining effects the war has had on the royal coffers... About: Well... as ever so often, this started out small - almost micro () - but then things sort of escalated. Now it contains 43.000+ parts, resulting in the single most parts-heavy LDD file I've ever had. As always, it should all be buildable in real bricks. But then, who would do such a mad thing... As inspiration I used the (destroyed) Ribeira Palace, and Praça do Comércio in Lisbon, Portugal. The palace will be licensed as a royal art & culture property by the Oleander Crown. Thanks for watching, C&C welcome! Vive le Roi! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodi Posted November 23, 2017 That's genuinely astonishing! A true beauty. The radiating light beams on the first pic looks fantastic, and all these details, best microbuild I've ever seen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Professor Thaum Posted November 23, 2017 Wow... this is Versailles ? in Mardier !!?? I like very much the "just a micro built" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darnok Posted November 23, 2017 "Microbuild" ... I doubt you really understand the meaning of that word. Absolutely fantastic. Great architectorial details, a believable structure - it looks just like its story describes it, while not looking random at all - and an overall excellent composition. The troops on the main place and the ship on the river give fine scale references, underlining just how huge this thing is. The idea to present it with this star-shaped halo is genius. May I ask what the piece count would be without it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maxim I Posted November 23, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, Kolonialbeamter said: Hi mateys, The palace will be licensed as a royal art & culture property by the Oleander Crown. Honestly, I really don't get this... Why would Oleon licence the royal palace of Mardier? There is something as creating lore without the need exploit it. Elostirion build a market section in Londa as well, that could go as a royal property. I really see no point in Eslandola licencing that as a royal commercial property. And maybe we could say it is an Eslandolan Warehouse (like if we would be allowed to have that after our war). But Oleon licencing the royal palace of Londa? I really don't get it... --- Anywho, the build itself is really superb! It took me a while before I realised it wasn't in minifig scale :D It has something very royal and grandesque, so once again you did an amazing job KBB! Edited November 23, 2017 by Maxim I Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flavius Gratian Posted November 23, 2017 Absolutely stunning! The more I look at it the more impressed I become, noticing all your clever design choices! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Garmadon Posted November 23, 2017 6 hours ago, Drunknok said: "Microbuild" ... I doubt you really understand the meaning of that word. What he said Just gorgeous micro, KB! - the architecture is fantastic, and the layout is really well-thought out too! And like the others, I'm digging that star shape you've added around it! All around spectacular job - and I would be amiss not to mention that beautiful water and the ship there! In fact, I may just have to copy your design there pretty soon myself You know, seeing builds like this for Mardier almost makes me sorry we went out and crushed them... almost Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ayrlego Posted November 23, 2017 Spectacular 'micro' build KB! It really captures the grandeur of the palace complex in a way that would simply not be possible in minifig scale. Amazing job! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kai NRG Posted November 23, 2017 What a beautiful micro KB, you really never disappoint with your massive digital builds! Great job, excellent layout and super impressive size! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elostirion Posted November 27, 2017 That is superb. Nothing else to say. Just great. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maxim I Posted November 27, 2017 (edited) Oh and just wondering another thing, isn't a palace supposed to be a royal palace? aka a royal residence property? (edit: I really admire the work you put onto this, but from a gaming point of view, it doesn't makes sense what Oleon is doing) Edited November 27, 2017 by Maxim I Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bregir Posted November 27, 2017 Absolutely FANTABULOUS, KB. I really like the grandeur of the whole thing, and it really acts the part - keeps up symmetry with some local differences. If anything, I would have liked to see a bit more variation to showcase that it has been built over several phases. Can you show a breakdown of how you did the round main tower? I can't seem to figure that out, but it looks great. The inclusion of gardens, colonnade, dock, bell tower and main plaza tiling really makes it stand out to me. The whole scale is hard to fathom, but it surely is huge! ______________________________________ And now to the penible question of licensing brought up by @Maxim I: Type of property A palace is a funny thing - is it a residence or an administrative center? In the latter case, it could definitely be art and culture. The important thing is that it fits the lore of the build, at least to me. In this case, I think it can be both, so KB's choice is as good as anyone's, I think. Ownership vs. Lore I tend to agree with Maxim here. Why would Oleon pay for and benefit by a palace in Londa? It seems rather odd, and just seems off. And it does seem a bit like gaming the system, when the EGS does not fit the lore (although, as I try to explain just below, I don't actually think it is!). On the other hand, I don't want to discourage these kind of builds - it is great to see NPC nations developed, and KB could just as well have placed this in Granoleon and Oleon licensing it would not be strange at all. But right now, the story is just off - it makes no sense. And I think this needs to be corrected, as the EGS should be a servant of the lore, not just a way to make money. How can this be fixed?Possible solution The story highlights the oddity in how the Royal Coffers has been able to support this palace. What if Oleon lent Mardier the sum to refurnish/repair/whatever the palace after the civil war (the license expense) in return for continuous payments of interest (property income)? Then it all makes sense. Does this make any difference for the game as such? No, not at all. But it EXPLAINS why Oleon pays for the licensing, and why Oleon gets the income. And with this sort of internalising the EGS into the lore, I believe both me and Maxim will be happy. Or what do you say, @Maxim I? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maxim I Posted November 27, 2017 (edited) 54 minutes ago, Bregir said: ______________________________________ And now to the penible question of licensing brought up by @Maxim I: Type of property A palace is a funny thing - is it a residence or an administrative center? In the latter case, it could definitely be art and culture. The important thing is that it fits the lore of the build, at least to me. In this case, I think it can be both, so KB's choice is as good as anyone's, I think. Ownership vs. Lore I tend to agree with Maxim here. Why would Oleon pay for and benefit by a palace in Londa? It seems rather odd, and just seems off. And it does seem a bit like gaming the system, when the EGS does not fit the lore (although, as I try to explain just below, I don't actually think it is!). On the other hand, I don't want to discourage these kind of builds - it is great to see NPC nations developed, and KB could just as well have placed this in Granoleon and Oleon licensing it would not be strange at all. But right now, the story is just off - it makes no sense. And I think this needs to be corrected, as the EGS should be a servant of the lore, not just a way to make money. How can this be fixed?Possible solution The story highlights the oddity in how the Royal Coffers has been able to support this palace. What if Oleon lent Mardier the sum to refurnish/repair/whatever the palace after the civil war (the license expense) in return for continuous payments of interest (property income)? Then it all makes sense. Does this make any difference for the game as such? No, not at all. But it EXPLAINS why Oleon pays for the licensing, and why Oleon gets the income. And with this sort of internalising the EGS into the lore, I believe both me and Maxim will be happy. Or what do you say, @Maxim I? It would make a lot more sense Although a loan would have been cheaper for Mardier About the palace stuff: the name of a royal residence is: "royal palace". It is like making a "Royal Factory" but licence it as a royal Art & Culture because it is producing golden statues. Every palace has some cultural and civilian purposes, but in the end, it is a residence. KBB even states that the kings of Mardier are non-stop living here... Otherwise I could have licenced my palace in Trador as an art & culture as well, but that doesn't feel right to me. I know Oleon got the interesting bonus for Art & Culture buildings, but please for the love of the game, don't make everything art & culture. I know the income of a royal residence is very meager. And a loan of 300 db's, resulting in a montly income of 15 db's (loan is paid back after 20 months) is way more possible than a loan of 2400 with a monthly rent of 600 (loan is paid back after 4 months and all following months are a bonus of 25%)... Edited November 27, 2017 by Maxim I Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Dee Posted November 27, 2017 Fantastic microbuild. I would love to see this in real bricks, in person. The overall design and layout is beautiful. The star base is impressive, but I think it would look more natural if it depicted more of the surroundings - unless the surroundings are all other buildings, in which case the star makes sense. I also wondered about the story, but basically came to the same conclusion as Bregir: settling war debts. An explanation would be cool though. Good work. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bregir Posted November 27, 2017 Just now, Maxim I said: It would make a lot more sense Although a loan would have been cheaper for Mardier Would it? Who would lend them money? Instead, they have defacto sold a perpetuity to Oleon for getting the palace up and running. (If KB adapts the story, that is). During/after a war, many countries would take out expensive debts. 1 minute ago, Maxim I said: About the palace stuff: the name of a royal residence is: "royal palace". I agree that not everything should be shoehorned into the bonus categories, but a Royal Palace in the capital would very likely be an administrative center, although the story could be more clear on this. And I think the rules are fair on this - a royal residence is for prestige (although I believe it still has a massive effect on settlement size and TV?) and is cheap with low income, while a Royal Culture is expensive and brings in more cash. I can't recall your palace story, but yes, I think it could probably have been a culture too. Perhaps what we really need is some more incentive to license residences? (Either boost price and income, or make them more important for settlement level) 12 minutes ago, Captain Dee said: I also wondered about the story, but basically came to the same conclusion as Bregir: settling war debts. An explanation would be cool though. I actually think it would be more than cool... I am personally of the opinion that it should be a requirement that the EGS actions are explained to ensure coherence. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darnok Posted November 27, 2017 Just now, Bregir said: Perhaps what we really need is some more incentive to license residences? (Either boost price and income, or make them more important for settlement level) This is something I have thought about some days ago. I agree that residences should play a bigger role in a settlement. Of course a settlement is not only about people living there, but currently each residence is as important as all other kinds of properties. I wonder where all those artisans, factory workers and people in commerce live - three of each per residence? And that does not even take into account people working in arts&culture, education or on plantations. On the other hand I do not think that residences should provide a lot of income. The current numbers are fine in my opinion. The simplest solution would be to raise the number of residences needed per settlement level. Maybe double it? Another idea could be to make the mayors pay depend on the numbers of residences - after all the citizens pay the taxes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kai NRG Posted November 27, 2017 30 minutes ago, Bregir said: I agree that not everything should be shoehorned into the bonus categories, but a Royal Palace in the capital would very likely be an administrative center, although the story could be more clear on this. And I think the rules are fair on this - a royal residence is for prestige (although I believe it still has a massive effect on settlement size and TV?) and is cheap with low income, while a Royal Culture is expensive and brings in more cash. I can't recall your palace story, but yes, I think it could probably have been a culture too. Honestly I think a Royal Palace should be a residence and shouldn't be thrown into Culture just because it can fit (and seriously, what palace wouldn't be able to fit Art & Culture?). Of course it can fit, but palace is the archetype of a large residence and that's where it should go. Otherwise who in their right mind would license a palace as a residence? I can see why Maxim is annoyed. I'd be annoyed too, if I licensed a huge palace as a residence only to find that other people were licensing them as Art & Culture. The mere prestigious feeling of knowing that you've built and own a huge palace is enough (obviously, it's been done at least twice I think) for people to have incentive to license royal residences. In fact the low income is kind of added bonus in some sense - like, I'm so rich, I can just buy me a palace that's never gonna pay me back. A higher income shouldn't be necessary, but just letting the whole residence concept by bypassed would mean that the income does need to be adjusted on residence so people have some reason to use that bracket. I'm not accusing KB of bending the rules or anything, as I said a palace obviously does fit in Art & Culture, and it's perfectly natural to want to get the most out of a beautiful build like this, but I personally think that the rules should be edited to be specific that palaces are Royal Residences and will never fit in Art & Culture, unless perhaps they're made into a museum (though even that IMHO is borderline and I would be glad to see it disallowed, because the reason a palace could be a museum would be because it was a palace or represented a palace, i.e. a residence, in the first place), any more than you can build a log cabin or a gothic-style house or any other "cultural" looking house and license as a small Art & Culture instead of a residence. If it's built to live in, then it's a residence, no matter how artistic or cultural it might look. The question shouldn't be, what category can I possibly squeeze this build into, but what category is the best fit. And if we decide that Art & Culture is best fit for a palace then the Royal Residence slot has become completely obsolete. Anyway! Sorry to hijack KBs thread. To return to a more pertinent question, I add my seal of approval to the lore addition that's been suggested for explaining why Oleon owns this residence, which in the first instance made absolutely no sense to me either. 29 minutes ago, Drunknok said: This is something I have thought about some days ago. I agree that residences should play a bigger role in a settlement. Of course a settlement is not only about people living there, but currently each residence is as important as all other kinds of properties. I wonder where all those artisans, factory workers and people in commerce live - three of each per residence? And that does not even take into account people working in arts&culture, education or on plantations. Well I think the natural growth rate is all residences? Sort of a background explanation. After all it's kind of boring to build tons of residences. And lots of people with small shops would live in the second story or something in those days. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bregir Posted November 27, 2017 Kai, I get your point, but it has been established before that administrative buildings fall into the culture category - so I am not talking about the cultural importance or it being turned into a museum, but about its administrative purpose. Could be a town hall, for instance. Or a seat of parliament. "Palace" in itself does not signify a residence. Some palaces are more administrative than residential. That is why I say it can fit in both, depending on the story/lore and purpose of the building. Of course, if it is mainly a seat of residence, it is (surprise!) a residence, but if it is a seat of government it fits better into the culture category. As such, a residence is a rather narrow category, but it has that nice prestiguous touch, and a much cheaper price. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maxim I Posted November 27, 2017 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Bregir said: Kai, I get your point, but it has been established before that administrative buildings fall into the culture category - so I am not talking about the cultural importance or it being turned into a museum, but about its administrative purpose. Could be a town hall, for instance. Or a seat of parliament. "Palace" in itself does not signify a residence. Some palaces are more administrative than residential. That is why I say it can fit in both, depending on the story/lore and purpose of the building. Of course, if it is mainly a seat of residence, it is (surprise!) a residence, but if it is a seat of government it fits better into the culture category. As such, a residence is a rather narrow category, but it has that nice prestiguous touch, and a much cheaper price. But aren't all palaces used to welcome guests and discuss diplomatic stuff? Don't have all palaces a cultural purpose as it host an amazing art collection? KBB clearly said the palace has a residing function, so I would say that (for the sake of the game), it is a residence. I know it is a grey zone, but if we decide all palaces are art & culture, then no-one will ever build a royal residence anymore. edit: even my small palace in Trador has been licenced as a residence, even if everyone can clearly see the administrative purpose of this build... Edited November 27, 2017 by Maxim I Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bregir Posted November 27, 2017 I don't disagree that a residence should be licensed as a residence, but I maintain that a governmental/administrative building should be classified as cultural. So no, not all palaces are anything. A property's class should be defined by its primary purpose. Whether this or any other specific property should be/have been classed as this or that, is a separate discussion. I don't think this specific build is clearly one or the other, although I tend to agree the current description mainly emphasizes residence. On another note, perhaps Royal Residences should have additional *IP income to reflect the prestige of owning a palace? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt Wolf Posted November 27, 2017 First, the MOC: stunning build. All I can do is echo what others have said at this point. What I can add was that I was somewhat relieved to discover that it is, in fact, only a microbuild! Second, the licensing question: when I was looking at it for the first time, before reading to the end, I assumed this was part of the NPC Development Group effort. Having it licensed by Oleon doesn't make sense to me either. I think this should be a great contribution to the game and its lore, but not a profit center for Oleon. (We could always convene a leadership group to roleplay Mardier for a bit and see how long it would take for Mardier to seize it! ) As for a palace being a residence or an Art & Culture build, we've generally kept them as residences to this point in the game, and despite its grandeur, I'd prefer to see us follow precedent as much as possible. And finally, addressing Bregir's suggestion re IPs, it's a wonderful build, but there's no need to go changing the game system as a result. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Genaro Posted November 27, 2017 KB, this build came out great as always. Nothing short of amazing details everywhere I look, and the presentation is second to none. This truly is a sublime build (though I still think the ship is a bit small). About the licensing, I will note that KB asked in one of Oleon's PMs if it should be a residence, and the consensus was that a palace can serve as either a residence or arts and cultural. Yes, people live there, but people could also live on the upper floor of an artisan or a farmer may have a small shack by his plantation. Like these examples, a palace's function far exceeds a place to live. Rather, it is the center of government where the King rules and the fate of the nation is decided. For an absolute monarchy, it truly is the center of the nation's government. Furthermore, the grandeur of a palace is designed to highlight the epitome of a nation's architecture and design. Art and culture is a major focus of the building. Even KB's description references a "vast collection of priceless paintings and pieces of art." As for Oleon licensing it, I fully support licenses that relate to a player's story and that make logical sense. Nonetheless, I am unaware on any rules that require this. If KB wants to expand his story to show Oleon being more involved, that's fine, but I don't believe it is required. Note that I am not commenting on whether or not it is logical for Oleon to own the license. Finally, I would point out that KB could just as easily have licensed it somewhere in Oleon with the only difference being that Oleon's, not Mardier's, lore would be better developed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt Wolf Posted November 27, 2017 42 minutes ago, Captain Genaro said: About the licensing, I will note that KB asked in one of Oleon's PMs if it should be a residence, and the consensus was that a palace can serve as either a residence or arts and cultural. Yes, people live there, but people could also live on the upper floor of an artisan or a farmer may have a small shack by his plantation. Like these examples, a palace's function far exceeds a place to live. Rather, it is the center of government where the King rules and the fate of the nation is decided. For an absolute monarchy, it truly is the center of the nation's government. Furthermore, the grandeur of a palace is designed to highlight the epitome of a nation's architecture and design. Art and culture is a major focus of the building. Even KB's description references a "vast collection of priceless paintings and pieces of art." And I think an art & culture license in this case is perfectly acceptable. I just don't want every palace turning into an art & culture property, that's all. 47 minutes ago, Captain Genaro said: As for Oleon licensing it, I fully support licenses that relate to a player's story and that make logical sense. Nonetheless, I am unaware on any rules that require this. If KB wants to expand his story to show Oleon being more involved, that's fine, but I don't believe it is required. Note that I am not commenting on whether or not it is logical for Oleon to own the license. Finally, I would point out that KB could just as easily have licensed it somewhere in Oleon with the only difference being that Oleon's, not Mardier's, lore would be better developed. And if KB had placed this in Oleon, there would be no issue. But he chose to add to Mardier's lore (which I think is great!), and I think that it is likely Mardier would seize such a property as their own, as is their right in the rules, if it were licensed by Oleon. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Genaro Posted November 27, 2017 Just now, Capt Wolf said: And if KB had placed this in Oleon, there would be no issue. But he chose to add to Mardier's lore (which I think is great!), and I think that it is likely Mardier would seize such a property as their own, as is their right in the rules, if it were licensed by Oleon. There's always a possibility that Mardier will seize it, just as any NPC can seize any player build in their faction, but that doesn't prevent the player from licensing it. I don't believe this is the right place to discuss when NPCs will and won't seize property. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maxim I Posted November 27, 2017 Tomorrow I am going to unlicence my royal palace as a royal residence and I am going to licence it as a royal commerce. Why? Because it is here I sign trade agreements with other players and where I stack my treasure. Following the Oleon logic, this would make perfect sense... Honestly, I am very tempted to do this because this whole “licence a palace as something else then a palace and because well screw whatever the lore is, you can licence whatever you want wherever you want.” And no, I am not going to do that. I feel too much pride in playing the game as it should be. A palace is a palace... Yes KBB should be rewarded for building such an amazing build for a NPC faction (just as Elostirion should). But licencing the royal RESIDENCE of the royal family of Mardier as an Art & Culture for Oleon is something I really don’t get and makes me even wonder what the whole point of this game is. So my Oleon friends, keep playing this way, but you really lost me... In my opinion, you didn’t crossed the boundaries once, but twice with the same action, which really makes it a no go for me... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
