ElectroDiva

2018 Lego Trains

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The simplest for backward compatibility is a BT receiver using the same cables and connectors as the IR receiver.  Then you can just pull out the IR receiver and plug in a new BT receiver in your old PF trains and you're done.

 

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8 hours ago, Capparezza said:

Oh, well... I'm a bit confused now. Promobricks is talking about a BT receiver which is integrated in the battery box, while Zusammengebaut.com talks about a receiver being about the same size as the current infrared one...

 

7 hours ago, BurkusCircus said:

Maybe they’re trying to incorporate both systems? Have the BT receiver+battery box for when PF2 comes out in a couple years, and current IR receiver for right now? 

 

It could be like how Lego currently has the AAA battery box (88000) and the LiPo one (8878)-- except this round, the rechargeable box has a built in BT receiver instead of an integrated speed knob... and then the AAA battery box will either still be usable, or it will get an upgrade to help it play well with a new standalone BT receiver.

 

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8 hours ago, BurkusCircus said:

Maybe they’re trying to incorporate both systems? Have the BT receiver+battery box for when PF2 comes out in a couple years, and current IR receiver for right now? 

More likely, the prototype trains had the old IR recievers built into them, and were observed by Zusammengebaut; but these parts won't be on the final production PF 2 train.

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14 hours ago, icemorons said:

...and a new Bluetooth transmitter.  Either LEGO's own, or an app through your smartphone/tablet.   This is the best case scenario.  The battery box and train motor and connectors would all remain the same.

FYI, I contacted TLG customer service yesterday to inquire about the currently "out of stock" 88002 train motors on shop.lego.com.  They said it is "temporarily out of stock", meaning that there is no known date yet for replenishment, but that they will be getting them back in.  The CSR said there is no indication that part 88002 is retiring anytime soon.

So here is one problem with BT controlled trains or anything else lego. Eventually the App will become obsolete and not be supported by the current operating systems. So unlike today where we have many people still running their 12V systems that are 30+ years old, if lego does not have a standalone controller, the new trains could become uncontrollable in 10+ years. Ah well, we'll worry about that headache when we come to it.

Meanwhile, thanks for the info about the current PF motors.

 

 

9 hours ago, Carrera124 said:

At least, the new Powerfunctions 2.0 are a proof that Lego trains are not dead. Otherwise they wouldn't have spent money to develop a new system. Maybe the technic sets will also benefit from it, but battery box and motor are train-specific.

I suspect the only "train-specific" components will be the train motor itself and a software UI. Everything else should be cross-theme. That was the whole point of going PF in the first place, to standardize the motors, batteries, etc. Now it looks like they are trying to pull the three power systems together (PF, mindstorms, and WeDo). Hopefully they won't mess up the other PF motors and make them too large or otherwise difficult to fit in trains.

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29 minutes ago, zephyr1934 said:

So here is one problem with BT controlled trains or anything else lego. Eventually the App will become obsolete and not be supported by the current operating systems. So unlike today where we have many people still running their 12V systems that are 30+ years old, if lego does not have a standalone controller, the new trains could become uncontrollable in 10+ years. Ah well, we'll worry about that headache when we come to it.

I highly doubt this would be the case; Lego knows that the reverse-compatibility is huge for them. I'm predicting a new receiver and controller pair, which will communicate over Bluetooth. Presumably, they'll look slightly different than the current PF components so that it's easy to tell them apart.

Hopefully the Bluetooth receiver is much smaller than the IR ones! All it really needs are two connection points for motors and such, and some space for a PCB with the Bluetooth chip and power-handling components attached. I'm curious to see if the Bluetooth chip is integrated with a general-purpose microcontroller, or if it's just a radio and needs a separate chip to do the grunt work.

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2 hours ago, zephyr1934 said:

I suspect the only "train-specific" components will be the train motor itself and a software UI. Everything else should be cross-theme. That was the whole point of going PF in the first place, to standardize the motors, batteries, etc. Now it looks like they are trying to pull the three power systems together (PF, mindstorms, and WeDo). Hopefully they won't mess up the other PF motors and make them too large or otherwise difficult to fit in trains.

That would mean, that Technic would also use the small battery box with less capacity than today? Imho unlikely.

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16 hours ago, ColletArrow said:

On the other hand, when I first saw it I presumed it would simply be colour detection, similar to the Mindstorms. Why over-complicate a young child's train set? 

What if the bright colours are for the young child and the Bluetooth is for us? A man can dream, no? :grin:

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22 hours ago, ColletArrow said:

On the other hand, when I first saw it I presumed it would simply be colour detection, similar to the Mindstorms. Why over-complicate a young child's train set? 

NFC tags are cheap and don't rely on optical sensors. Should be a more robust system, too.

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1 hour ago, 3797 said:

NFC tags are cheap and don't rely on optical sensors. Should be a more robust system, too.

And people will need to buy them, whereas they're not going to need to sell us (or likely even kids) extra yellow tiles to do colour detection.

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On 31/01/2018 at 5:26 PM, ColletArrow said:

On the other hand, when I first saw it I presumed it would simply be colour detection, similar to the Mindstorms. Why over-complicate a young child's train set? 

Why even go that complicated. Lots of simple toys (like the old duplo "intelli-train") work on essentially pressing buttons. The bars on the tracks pressed a button underneath the train for a particular time compared to a standard bar, and gave it different functions. Similarly code bricks in the toolo  mybots worked in a similar way.

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2 hours ago, 3797 said:

NFC tags are cheap and don't rely on optical sensors. Should be a more robust system, too.

True. Thinking about it, if it were based on colour detection then if you placed the track on a coloured surface that could trigger the sensor. Unless it's been designed to only trigger when it sees a colour for a certain distance.

10 minutes ago, MAB said:

Why even go that complicated. Lots of simple toys (like the old duplo "intelli-train") work on essentially pressing buttons. The bars on the tracks pressed a button underneath the train for a particular time compared to a standard bar, and gave it different functions. Similarly code bricks in the toolo  mybots worked in a similar way.

Hmm, so the track tiles are different lengths, and the train does something dependent on how long the button is depressed for? I like it, but in the photo the tiles all seem the same length. Also, each one would need a ramp at the end if it were to push up a button, unless of course the button is tapered. Even so, as the tiles aren't taller than the rails, such a button would also trigger on points and level crossings.

NFC style chips in the tiles, read by a sensor on the train, does seem the easiest option then. As with so many things TLG is doing this year, we'll have to wait and see.

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High quality images of the sets have appeared...

 

I love both of them. The signal in the passenger train is a downgrade from the previous one, though. The robber within the freight set kinda reminds me of a train hopper, wearing all black :tongue:

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1 hour ago, legonerd54321 said:

High quality images of the sets have appeared...

 

I love both of them. The signal in the passenger train is a downgrade from the previous one, though. The robber within the freight set kinda reminds me of a train hopper, wearing all black :tongue:

Where?

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5 hours ago, ColletArrow said:

True. Thinking about it, if it were based on colour detection then if you placed the track on a coloured surface that could trigger the sensor. Unless it's been designed to only trigger when it sees a colour for a certain distance.

Hmm, so the track tiles are different lengths, and the train does something dependent on how long the button is depressed for? I like it, but in the photo the tiles all seem the same length. Also, each one would need a ramp at the end if it were to push up a button, unless of course the button is tapered. Even so, as the tiles aren't taller than the rails, such a button would also trigger on points and level crossings.

NFC style chips in the tiles, read by a sensor on the train, does seem the easiest option then. As with so many things TLG is doing this year, we'll have to wait and see.

The original tiles were the same length, the bar on the top was different lengths (the standard bar was always the same).

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3 hours ago, nitramvortimid said:

I see the same one in Google search or Youtube which I have posted here, but were removed :)

Where? I can't find any hi-res images in the usual places.

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9 minutes ago, Paperballpark said:

Where? I can't find any hi-res images in the usual places.

I also do not fine hi-res images. Just the one that I have posted, but was removed, which pic is not hi-res. I typed "Lego City 2018 SUMMER SETS ! NEW TRAIN" in youtube and see low-res pics, but they are enough for me to get the idea. Probably legonerd54321 will share where and how did he/she find the hi-res pics :)

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21 hours ago, Phoxtane said:

I highly doubt this would be the case; Lego knows that the reverse-compatibility is huge for them. I'm predicting a new receiver and controller pair, which will communicate over Bluetooth. Presumably, they'll look slightly different than the current PF components so that it's easy to tell them apart.

Reverse compatibility is important for up to 5 years, e.g., the 9v motors were available for a few years after 9v trains were discontinued. But with the move to a software based controller, once the hardware it runs on is obsolete it becomes much harder to control, e.g., my pile of old RCX bricks. Not a huge problem, if lego doesn't provide a solution to outlive contemporary smart phones I'm sure someone will come up with an emulator app or simulator down the road.

On the other hand, I can't wait until someone hacks the protocol and puts together an automated layout using 100% unmodified lego parts.

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If LEGO publishes the protocol like they did with the IR protocol, then it wouldn't be hard to hack your own controller. 

It wouldn't be hard to make a BT jammer either and have some fun with your LUG members who use BT to control their MOCs.  :laugh:

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What if new IR receiver will have 1-4 switch as now, and on other side of brick, will have IR/Bluetooth switch, so it's compatible with old and new systems ? With a switch it shouldn't consume more energy (like having two enabled at same time).

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9 hours ago, nitramvortimid said:

I also do not fine hi-res images. Just the one that I have posted, but was removed, which pic is not hi-res. I typed "Lego City 2018 SUMMER SETS ! NEW TRAIN" in youtube and see low-res pics, but they are enough for me to get the idea. Probably legonerd54321 will share where and how did he/she find the hi-res pics :)

I've seen them now, and very frustratingly, there are stickers over the PF section in the bottom right. Not on purpose though - there's stickers in the same place on other set boxes too.

I think I can make out though, that the extra word on the new Power Functions logo is '2.0'

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15 hours ago, ColletArrow said:

True. Thinking about it, if it were based on colour detection then if you placed the track on a coloured surface that could trigger the sensor. Unless it's been designed to only trigger when it sees a colour for a certain distance.

Hmm, so the track tiles are different lengths, and the train does something dependent on how long the button is depressed for? I like it, but in the photo the tiles all seem the same length. Also, each one would need a ramp at the end if it were to push up a button, unless of course the button is tapered. Even so, as the tiles aren't taller than the rails, such a button would also trigger on points and level crossings.

NFC style chips in the tiles, read by a sensor on the train, does seem the easiest option then. As with so many things TLG is doing this year, we'll have to wait and see.

Here is a site explaining how the old intelligent train worked:

https://www.ullright.org/ullWiki/show/lego-duplo-intellitrain

The "tiles" are all the same length, but the bars have different length.

42388.jpg

42389.png

By varying the patterns on the bars, different signals are sent to the train. This was all mechanical, with no need for RF.

(table copied from website)

Left

Centred Right

 

Reverse

 
               
 

Station

 
               

Horn

 
               

Repair Shop

 
               

Train Wash

 
               

Cargo

 
               

Tunnel

 
               

not used

 
               

Octan Fuel

 
               

not used

 
               
 

Stop

 
               

 

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4 minutes ago, MAB said:

The "tiles" are all the same length, but the bars have different length.

Yes, however in the pictures of the 2018 Duplo trains we have seen, the tiles have no such ridges and are all identical in shape, meaning some other method of identification is necessary. I think it seems likely this will either by colour-sensors or NFC-style chip.

49 minutes ago, Paperballpark said:

I've seen them now, and very frustratingly, there are stickers over the PF section in the bottom right. Not on purpose though - there's stickers in the same place on other set boxes too.

I think I can make out though, that the extra word on the new Power Functions logo is '2.0'

So it's pretty certain trains are being used as the testbed for mainstream PF 2.0 sets, although exactly how it is going to be implemented is still a mystery. Are the other elements of the sets identical to what we have seen in the earlier images? What other details can be distinguished?

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23 minutes ago, ColletArrow said:

So it's pretty certain trains are being used as the testbed for mainstream PF 2.0 sets, although exactly how it is going to be implemented is still a mystery. Are the other elements of the sets identical to what we have seen in the earlier images? What other details can be distinguished?

This actually would make sense, TLC did kind of the same with the introduction of the first RC trains which still were officially speaking part of the 9V system. If you look at it, trains are anyways the ideal testbed; it can be used for almost all ages, you anyways need to produce some sort of remote controlling system, its within system not technic so a broader age category of children are going to buy it, etc...

Regarding the Bluetooth; I will be mostly interested how much customization will be possible (if any at all), just like with both Sbrick for different layouts etc, and PFx Brick for all the different speedsteps, automation and all those other cool gimmicks. 

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1 hour ago, ColletArrow said:

Yes, however in the pictures of the 2018 Duplo trains we have seen, the tiles have no such ridges and are all identical in shape, meaning some other method of identification is necessary. I think it seems likely this will either by colour-sensors or NFC-style chip.

 

1

Yes, the new ones are, I was explaining the old.

I doubt it will be a colour sensor, and RFID/NFC is more likely. Very cheap colour sensors are quite bad at getting constant colour readings under different light conditions. And I doubt they would use quality sensors for such a simple task. This can be overcome by having a light underneath the train to provide relatively constant light conditions, but this is unlikely. So my money would be on RFID, cheap, reliable and low power. The bright colours will be there to help kids identify which is which. One of the nice things about the old style ones was that you could make your own easily enough by sticking a couple of layers of thick card or plastic on top of the rails.

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