BotBS and realism

[Darnok]

To start with the TL/DR version: how realistic do you consider the BotBS setting to be, and how realistic should it be in your opinion?

 

Now for the wall of text...

 

It is obvious that the BotBS setting is roughly based on a 16th to 19th century era of exploration, colonisation and seafaring (usually referred to as the "Age of Sail"). Overall, it seems like the romantic aspects are emphacised - especially in relation to piracy - but it is a RPG in the end, so that is only fair. I do wonder though how much realism is integral to the games setting, and what its players expect or are willing to accept. I will try to draw two sketches from the oppsoing end of the spectrum to illustrate what I am talking about:

1. The setting is deeply rooted in realism and historical accuracy, mostly based around earths history of a given timeframe. In game terms nothing that would not be historically plausible is acceptable. In terms of roleplaying and Lego builds you would have to strictly go by historical examples. Ever ship built needs to meet the standards of a specific timeframe, any building has to mirror the architecture of a certain period. Some might even go as far as restrict what minifigures (depending on clothing style) are accepted or not.
2. The setting is, at best, loosely based on any historical precedents. There are heavy influences from fantasy and/or sci-fi - take any "Final Fantasy" as a good example. Anything goes, as long as it is even somewhat plausible. Your roleplaying and any builds you come up with can be crazy, as long as you don't get downright silly.

From what I have gathered so far, the BotBS setting is much farther from "2" than it is from "1", but obviously not close to the first example. Historical accuracy is appreciated by most current players, but not strictly enforced, I would describe it as "Pirates of the Carribean Light - without the zombie pirates".

 

To further illustrate my point: think about Lego ship sets and their place in the BotBS setting. Anybody with even the slightest bit of knowledge of shipbuilding history is aware of the historical inaccuracy of any and all existing Lego Pirates ships. There is nothing wrong with that, they obviously have to take play features and the restrictions of a "kids toy" into account. All Lego sets are an abstraction of their real world counterparts, and those sets are no different. They are loosely based on historical examples, but not more.

So the question is: are you happy with using those exact sets in a game like this? Or would you object to them - either by claiming "MOC one yourself" or by "please be more historically accurate"? The guidelines are clear: this is about the "Age of Sail", steampunk and dragonriders are obviously out of the picture. There is lots of wiggle room with this though, and everybody has his or her own red lines not to be crossed.

 

Having said that: how do people feel about this? What do you expect from this, and what are you (not) willing to accept? Where do you draw the line?

 

 

P.S.: I will state my own opinion on the matter at a later point, for now I do not want to force the discussion one way or the other.

[Capt Wolf]

7 minutes ago, Drunknok said:

From what I have gathered so far, the BotBS setting is much farther from "2" than it is from "1", but obviously not close to the first example. Historical accuracy is appreciated by most current players, but not strictly enforced, I would describe it as "Pirates of the Carribean Light - without the zombie pirates".

This is a good description. The key is that BoBS is set in a fictional world, but that world operates much as our historical world did/does.

8 minutes ago, Drunknok said:

think about Lego ship sets and their place in the BotBS setting. Anybody with even the slightest bit of knowledge of shipbuilding history is aware of the historical inaccuracy of any and all existing Lego Pirates ships. There is nothing wrong with that, they obviously have to take play features and the restrictions of a "kids toy" into account. All Lego sets are an abstraction of their real world counterparts, and those sets are no different. They are loosely based on historical examples, but not more.

So the question is: are you happy with using those exact sets in a game like this? Or would you object to them - either by claiming "MOC one yourself" or by "please be more historically accurate"?

Using those exact sets? No, because part of the goal here is to go beyond the sets and build your own creations in some manner. Using builds modified from those sets but that do not address the toy-like aspects or historical inaccuracies? A-OK. Or build something from scratch that is similar in lack of historical accuracy to an official set? Also A-OK. While some players prefer to build to a more RL historical standard, some don't, and that's fine. And among those that try to build "models" rather than "toys" there is still quite a gap in what various players do and do not prefer. The great thing about BoBS is there's room for all of it. Players of different skill levels and different building interests still get to come together and play a fun game. I think the storytelling and roleplaying is the bigger part of BoBS, and we also get to build with Lego, so it's all good.  That's my take on it.

[Spud The Viking]

I'm a history buff, studying it at university, so I love the realism and tight 'rules' to history. Though, I feel no restrictions to building something wacky or unrealistic. I think you may only feel this way because nobody has really pushed the boundaries in terms of historical accuracy and it isn't easy being the first one to do so. I am bias towards history but I'd be totally willing to accept anybody's contribution, no matter the relevance to textbooks or encyclopedias.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Spud The Viking

[Mesabi]

43 minutes ago, Drunknok said:

From what I have gathered so far, the BotBS setting is much farther from "2" than it is from "1", but obviously not close to the first example. Historical accuracy is appreciated by most current players, but not strictly enforced, I would describe it as "Pirates of the Carribean Light - without the zombie pirates".

To further illustrate my point: think about Lego ship sets and their place in the BotBS setting. Anybody with even the slightest bit of knowledge of shipbuilding history is aware of the historical inaccuracy of any and all existing Lego Pirates ships. There is nothing wrong with that, they obviously have to take play features and the restrictions of a "kids toy" into account. All Lego sets are an abstraction of their real world counterparts, and those sets are no different. They are loosely based on historical examples, but not more.

So the question is: are you happy with using those exact sets in a game like this? Or would you object to them - either by claiming "MOC one yourself" or by "please be more historically accurate"? The guidelines are clear: this is about the "Age of Sail", steampunk and dragonriders are obviously out of the picture. There is lots of wiggle room with this though, and everybody has his or her own red lines not to be crossed.

I like pretty much all of where BoBS is at. The way I look at it, is that it's a smorgasbord of all of the age of sail. And, it does romanticize a lot of it. I mean let's face it, Columbus was a genocidal maniac, and the discovery of the new world made slaves a massive commodity. And that's just to start. But, let's not be social justice warriors here or anything. We're playing a game. And it's a fun game. 

Personally, the only problem I have with the lore of BoBS is the Kracken. I would like things to be more realistic. 

6 minutes ago, Spud The Viking said:

I'm a history buff, studying it at university, so I love the realism and tight 'rules' to history. Though, I feel no restrictions to building something wacky or unrealistic. I think you may only feel this way because nobody has really pushed the boundaries in terms of historical accuracy and it isn't easy being the first one to do so. I am bias towards history but I'd be totally willing to accept anybody's contribution, no matter the relevance to textbooks or encyclopedias.

Me too actually! I'm a double major in History and Political Science. I think there's just some unwritten rules in regard to historical accuracy, where no one does anything ridiculous, or anachronistic. I mean, we're all here because we like Lego pirates, so we all come in with expectations of what we want to build.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Mesabi

[Sir Stig]

29 minutes ago, Drunknok said:

- without the zombie pirates".

Yet...

Using the exact sets - not so much. Changing the colors and/or redesign parts of it would have to be what I think is the minimum for calling it a MOC (you need to have an MOC to license a ship if in the EGS). 

 

I prefer as few restrictions as possible to keep the imagination/fun and games as open as possible. I appreciate rules for the RPG aspect. Also, new players should not feel threatened that their builds are not good enough. Personally I put too much pressure on myself to improve with every build, so I appreciate when someone lightens the mood and takes the seriousness level down a notch.

[Ayrlego]

Capt Wolf sums it up well. Especially this bit:

29 minutes ago, Capt Wolf said:

The great thing about BoBS is there's room for all of it.

And I think that is the most important thing of all. Some players like to build more 'toy' like designs, keeping in the spirit of Lego as a toy. Others like to go more realistic. I think the game needs to be flexible enough to be able to include both types of player and everything inbetween - and I think we are pretty good at doing that!

A good example of flexibility is the range of military units depicted. When I started playing, my troops were quite Napoleonic era in appearance. In contrast players like Capt Wolf went for a mid-late 1600s feel. Eventually I changed out my shakos for tricornes and tried to slide back a century as I realised I wanted to change the style I was building in. I guess the point is that you can be flexible and modify your style depending on what you want to build. 

I think the only official red lines are 1. No slavery. and 2. No steam engines. (although 2 has been slightly bent - Corrington's Royal Cocoa factory has a prototype steam device, but this is justified by history as it was first used within our time period, and is only used in a very small and isolated way.  

6 minutes ago, Mesabi said:

Personally, the only problem I have with the lore of BoBS is the Kracken. I would like things to be more realistic. 

Hmmm, I kind of agree with Mesabi here (he's probably pretty surprised to hear that!) I wouldn't say I have a problem with it. but personally I think that the more fantastical elements should be able to be explained in some sort of rationalistic way and their definite, confirmed existence should not be part of official lore eg. nobody else saw the kracken, and it is widely believed the first officer was drunk at the time and hit a submerged reef... and again I think we have done that pretty well with the Kraken.

Having said that, I wouldn't want all fantasy banned from BoBS - it may not be my thing, but it is others and it brings something different to the game. I think if we all stuck strictly to historical reality not only would we drive people away, but the game would become (even more) serious and loose a lot of the fun aspect.

At the end of the day, if you don't like someone else's story arc as it doesn't agree with you perception of the BoBS world, I think it's pretty easy to just ignore it/appreciate it as being a different perspective and move on with your own - and the game needs to be flexible enough to be able to do that.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Ayrlego

[gedren_y]

I fall in the 'some mythos' category. My ships aren't very realistic, but I do try to apply a certain logic to them. I invented the Triuri faith, which makes allowances for mythic creatures as 'other realms beasts' that have crossed into the world.

There was also the Fountain of Youth contest. For that I had the Crahaish neh Triuri acknowledge that there are multiple places that can be called 'The Fountain of Youth' so as to not invalidate others' accounts. My story included some very specific 'magical' effects, and dangers.

I think I have a couple of other instances of 'magical' happenings in my builds, but try to avoid world altering fantasy.

As to build realism:

My ships are usually a strange mix of types, but I make certain to acknowledge this in the text of the threads. I am always willing to accept advice on improving the realism of ship design, though.

For structures I will sometimes use styles as old early medieval, and as recent as mid-1800s. It all depends on the story needs. I try for a relative realism, but often am limited to cutaway builds by parts limitations. This adds to the ability to develop action scenes, so it is a good trade-off. I do try to make my cutaways more real than LEGO sets get at the relative size.

I think the term 'relative realism' is the best description of BOBS.

[Elostirion]

Someone builds MOC with a huge Kraken devouring a ship - sure, that MOC is there and will be there.
But what does it mean? Is it reality? Or just a sailor's tale? Rumors? Exaggeration? A fantasy tale within the BoBS-world, told in taverns?
That is for me to interpret it the way I want to - and everyone else can do the same.

 

This would apply to all such things, like a mermaid, a priest making a wonder come true, mythology and gods in general, etc.
Sure, a wizard burning a city with lightnings he conjures... not so much. But noone does that anyway.
A crazy Sea Rat walking around with a pointed hat and making everyone believe he is a wizard - I would love it!

 

And while I think the world is quite historically accurate, we may bend it. We have seen very early attempts at aviation, or pre-real-time machinery, and that is totally fine for me.
We have definitely seen both animals and especially plants that don't exist in the real world, but which could.
(Again: Not talking about dragons, rather about sth. like a blue or brown panther instead of a black one)

 

Also some excurse into exaggeration and craziness (i.e. humor) is always cool - like having natives wear giant helmets with parrots on top of them.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Elostirion

[kaiju]

2 hours ago, Drunknok said:

From what I have gathered so far, the BotBS setting is much farther from "2" than it is from "1", but obviously not close to the first example. Historical accuracy is appreciated by most current players, but not strictly enforced, I would describe it as "Pirates of the Carribean Light - without the zombie pirates".

...give me time...

...actually, it will likely be ghost pirates, but anyway...

I've already got a nigh-immortal sigfig who'se youth was restored by a witch, an undead captain on another ship, a cursed dealer in rare items and I built a ghost ship (even if it is now in the hands of another player). I'm quite willing to get as close to PotC as I can get away with.

If BotBS were just SimTrader then I probably wouldn't still be here.

Edited October 5, 2017 by kaiju

[Kwatchi]

1 hour ago, Ayrlego said:

At the end of the day, if you don't like someone else's story arc as it doesn't agree with you perception of the BoBS world, I think it's pretty easy to just ignore it/appreciate it as being a different perspective and move on with your own - and the game needs to be flexible enough to be able to do that.

I am one of the "worst offenders" when comes to the fantasy element, between my medusa oracle and Captain Meloche constantly doing evil spell-casting nonsense.  I also am the proud owner of someone's aforementioned ghost ship (muahahaha).  Of course, all those elements have simply been plot devices for my storyline rather than something that interacts with the game mechanics and I add them in for fun.  I realize some players are looking more for CS Forrester/Patrick O'Brian universe, so I keep the wackiness confined to my little corner of the world, but I figure to each his own.  We're just finding an excuse to play with our toy collection in the end.

Having said that, my schooner I built last year was an attempt at more realistic build and I came away with a greater appreciation for the time and attention to detail those classic ship builders put into their creations.  So being in one camp doesn't preclude the other.  Unfortunately, you can only build with what is in your collection and mine contains more castle than hinges & brown 1x plates.

Short answer: I am happy playing a fantasy-heavy aesthetic but I understand if you want to ignore me to be more serious minded; I won't take it personally.

[Bregir]

10 hours ago, Kwatchi said:

Captain Meloche

Personally, I find the Dark Bishop the perfect example for mystic occurrences in BoBS. There are a number of builds about him using dark arts to rejuvenate or similar, which I treat like rumours that would often be spread about notorious personalities. And I believe different characters will react differently to such rumours. The typical, pious Oleander will probably see it as heathen practices flying in the face of the true Pantheon. The typical, scientific Corlander will question its reality, and wonder if there might be a scientific explanation. The Sea Rat may fear or look-up to him. The typical mercantile Eslandian may consider whether there might be a profitable opportunity in this. And all these interpretations can coexist with taking Kwatchi's contributions seriously and enjoying his stories, even if you are yourself playing a more "realistic" universe.

The good thing about Meloche is that he does not impose the supernatural upon the rest of us. Like Elostirion described, we can consider it how we want.

The same can be said for for instance the ghost ship or a sea monster. Some will consider it rumours, exaggerations or myths, and look for more logical or scientific explanations, while others may take it at face value, consider it a sign from the gods, or whatever.

The age of sail in consideration, there were many myths, and rumours of notorious pirates or opponents. It was a time of superstition, religion, and early scientific discovery. Many scientists would like think that mermaids were not mythical beings, but as of yet undescribed species. And BoBS certainly has room for it.

 

As for vessels of this age, we have seen a wonderful mix of highly accurate models and lego set-like constructions. Some colourful, alternative approaches, and others, subdued replicas of real ships. We have seen cogs and longboats from the start of the last millennia, galleons and caravels from the age of exploration, native crafts and far east inspired junks, and Napoleonic era frigates and ships of the line. And all sorts are welcome in BoBS, as long as they conform with the spirit of the game. (Eg. no steam engines or magically powered hovercrafts...) The twist is that in BoBS they coexist, and that a similarly sized early caravel may well best a (in RL more modern) Napoleonic era frigate, although in reality firepower and manouverability might have made it unlikely.

When people ask for advice in our shipwright's guild hall, I do tend to give advice towards a more realistic approach, and according to my personal preference. (For instance, I don't personally like Lego's approach to ships, where the cabin is placed like a box on top of the hull) But that does not mean I do not appreciate people preferring the Lego style for their MOCs.

As to official Lego sets in themselves, they are only "excluded" because they are not MOC's, not because of their style or "quality". As someone else said, to participate in the EGS or MRCA, you need a moc (or at the least, a heavy mod). If someone uses official sets in their stories, that is ok, but they can't be licensed. BoBS is, at least partly, about improving our building skills, afterall. :)

 

What is your own position on this? I find it interesting (and inspiring) to see new participants jumping into the game with such enthusiasm, and as leaders it is always interesting to hear positions on these matters.

[Darnok]

Oi, it seems like I have hit a nerve here. Great replies so far, I will get back to some of them later. For now, as promised, my own opinion.

 

To be honest... it is complicated. On the one hand, I admire people who do some research and put extra effort into building something as close as possible to the original. That is a creative act of its own, and often quite a challenge. On the other hand: Lego is an obvious abstraction from reality, and I think one should embrace rather than hide this. In the end I feel being limited way too much by "historic accuracy", whatever that means in a hobby around standard sized building blocks.

 

One of my first "big" sets was the Black Seas Barracuda. I loved it, despite all its faults (especially by todays standards). My current favourite is the Brickbeard's Bounty, and I'm sure you can see the similarities. This is the style I prefer when it comes to Lego ships, and it is quite a bit away from "realistic".

 

For anything in the BotBS game I would happily use any regular Lego ship set, even unmodified - as long as it is for "background purposes" only. Take my characters introducton as an example: I used an (almost) unmodified Imperial Flagship, but only as "scenery" to showcase my character. The model did fit the situation I wanted to show, and to be honet I had nothing better at hand in that moment. I would never use that model "ingame" though. Same goes for my unmodified BBB - nice for some action scenes as background, but not usable as my own "content".

 

Currently I am contemplating on what to do with some "raw material" I aquired over the last weeks: two BBB kits and a Brick Bounty (similar, but different). Both would leave me with enough parts to build a sizable merchant ship in Corrington colors.

 

One idea is to go for a more massive "regular ship" with three or four masts, wider hull and bigger and more ornate everything. While history nuts would raise an eyebrow, I think this would be fine for almost everbody. But then there is another idea...

 

Think about a massive two-hull ship with a structure between them. Similar to this or this (swimming, and without the steampunk elements of course), with two or even three masts per hull. It would be an absolute beast - The Beast? - completely over the top and unrealistic. But I would love it. In my opinion this would raise more than a few eyebrows, and even provoke disapproval from some - but as long as this monstrosity did not interfere in other characters storylines, it should be okay... ish. Right?

 

I can tell you this: while I am heavily influenced by steampunk, movies like "Hook" or "Pirates of the Carribean" (the first and only!) and video game RPGs as well as action adventures from the 90ies (Final Fantasy 6-9, Secret of Mana/Evermore, Breath of Fire 2), I will respect the rules of this game. My "style" is a good bit away from history - I just named my main influences - but there will be no machines, magic shotguns or similar shenanigans in anything I bring up here. I might build The Beast though...

 

Finally, I want to stress that I have the utmost respect for anybody striving for historical accuracy. As stated above, this is a real creative challenge, and I respect the effort going into it. It is just not the cup of tea I would like to have on my personal shelf. That will not stop me from enjoing the works of others though!

[Capt Wolf]

Drunknok, I don't think you've hit a nerve so much as you've hit upon a topic that garners a lot of opinions.

Just now, Drunknok said:

For anything in the BotBS game I would happily use any regular Lego ship set, even unmodified - as long as it is for "background purposes" only. Take my characters introducton as an example: I used an (almost) unmodified Imperial Flagship, but only as "scenery" to showcase my character. The model did fit the situation I wanted to show, and to be honest I had nothing better at hand in that moment. I would never use that model "ingame" though. Same goes for my unmodified BBB - nice for some action scenes as background, but not usable as my own "content".

And that is perfectly acceptable, and would lead to some good illustrated storytelling.   Nothing to apologize for here.

Just now, Drunknok said:

Think about a massive two-hull ship with a structure between them. Similar to this or this (swimming, and without the steampunk elements of course), with two or even three masts per hull. It would be an absolute beast - The Beast? - completely over the top and unrealistic. But I would love it. In my opinion this would raise more than a few eyebrows, and even provoke disapproval from some - but as long as this monstrosity did not interfere in other characters storylines, it should be okay... ish. Right?

I'd love to see that in real bricks! I think the only problem with The Beast is that you'll give Bregir a heart attack trying to figure out how to classify it!  

2 minutes ago, Drunknok said:

Finally, I want to stress that I have the utmost respect for anybody striving for historical accuracy. As stated above, this is a real creative challenge, and I respect the effort going into it. It is just not the cup of tea I would like to have on my personal shelf. That will not stop me from enjoing the works of others though!

Don't worry too much about historical accuracy. I think you've got a good perspective on things, and your cup of tea will fit in the BoBS tea shop just fine.

[Mike S]

If my bricks weren't practically all boxed up, I had planned on pushing the boundaries a bit....  

On an uncharted island somewhere in the Brick Seas there lives a crazed Corrington scientist intent on.... well no one is sure what he is intent on as he is crazed after all. But beware any poor soul who is unfortunate enough to become shipwrecked there....

Edited October 7, 2017 by Mike S

[Mesabi]

1 hour ago, Mike S said:

If my bricks weren't practically all boxed up, I had planned on pushing the boundaries a bit....  

On an uncharted island somewhere in the Brick Seas there lives a crazed Corrington scientist intent on.... well no one is sure what he is intent on as he is crazed after all. But beware any poor soul who is unfortunate enough to become shipwrecked there....