Jetflap

12v UP SW10 set prototype recreation

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I posted some photos of this set in my 7777 thread, but I wanted to tap the community brain trust, and didn't want it to get lost or confused in the other thread. To recap, this is my attempt at recreating the prototype.

37107167642_ce5060f23b_c.jpgIMG_20170904_062803990 by jet_flap, on Flickr

Original Photo:

37280214185_fb43dcbc09_c.jpg12V_2 by jet_flap, on Flickr

My primary question relates to an unseen area in the photo, the rear (or is it front?) windows. I have left them "blank", but there should be 4 windows here.

36442512264_503c85697d_c.jpgIMG_20170917_070536243 by jet_flap, on Flickr

37137766571_a7cdf0903f_c.jpg6289140695_d0d01da386_b by jet_flap, on Flickr

My best guess, is they used two of these on the sides...

36882524080_ecff611664.jpg29 by jet_flap, on Flickr

... and two of these in the center. To my knowledge, no variation of this part was released in black however, so that would be impossible to recreate.

37137727241_e3a7158bcc_t.jpg27 by jet_flap, on Flickr

I am looking for ideas on this. Is there some other option I am missing? Remember the parts would have to have existed by the late 80's. The center windows have to fit in one brick high worth of space. The plate on top has to stay as is, to follow the normal convention of allowing a removable roof.

36465849893_3eda045646_c.jpgIMG_20170917_070725019 by jet_flap, on Flickr

They could have used two of these windows, but I doubt they would have had the bottom half crudely overlapped. 

36882524200_02f04463ce.jpg7026 by jet_flap, on Flickr

I would love to hear anyone's ideas on this. It is interesting to also note, they already used a curious mix of old and new windows on the front (I think I have this right) so having another more odd style of window in the back doesn't make much sense either.

36441816714_62ff1f8294_c.jpgIMG_20170904_062812619 by jet_flap, on Flickr

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Jetflap said:

Remember the parts would have to have existed by the late 80's.

There may have been exceptions like:

2877.png

The first time I saw this brick was christmas 1991 when I built my Metroliner 4558. Bricklink seems to agree:

Quote

Years Released: 1991 - 2017

Overall I think that your version seems to be spot on. To me it looks as if they reworked this one multiple times until they ended up with set 4564. That was also the first set that had those modified 1x2 bricks in yellow.

Edited by 3797

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1 hour ago, Jetflap said:

They could have used two of these windows, but I doubt they would have had the bottom half crudely overlapped. 

36882524200_02f04463ce.jpg

 

This could be a valid option ...otherwise you can use a trans-clear brick 1 x 4

Edited by LEGO Train 12 Volts

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6 hours ago, 3797 said:

There may have been exceptions like:

2877.png

The first time I saw this brick was christmas 1991 when I built my Metroliner 4558. Bricklink seems to agree:

Overall I think that your version seems to be spot on. To me it looks as if they reworked this one multiple times until they ended up with set 4564. That was also the first set that had those modified 1x2 bricks in yellow.

I think you are right about that part. I am quite sure that is what is used on this prototype as the louvers for the engine compartment. That could very well be the case with set 4564 as well, although the only real similarity in the end was the color.

5 hours ago, LEGO Train 12 Volts said:

This could be a valid option ...otherwise you can use a trans-clear brick 1 x 4

I had previously tried both these ideas, I just modified it again now for a few photos, to see what you guys think:

This one looks the best I think, I'm just not sure they would have covered the bottom of those middle windows like that. I can not think of any case in a production set where a window of any type was half covered.

37116546652_a83cd9d561_c.jpgIMG_20170917_141200400 by jet_flap, on Flickr

 

This one is what I was referring to when I mentioned too many different window styles, it just looks odd.

37116546092_4c2f522fec_c.jpgIMG_20170917_142357220 by jet_flap, on Flickr

 

I only had one of the half-windows at hand, but you get the idea. If they made them in black for the prototype, this would look good. It would have been quite a late year to still be using this particular part though, I believe.

36891359140_4cc7254193_c.jpgIMG_20170917_142832285 by jet_flap, on Flickr

All of these options by the way create a destabilization when you try to remove the roof, being two bricks plus a plate high back there without any interlocking of parts, which I also find unlikely in a production set. It's quite possible these details had not yet been fully worked out. I would still be interested in hearing other ideas. I had also tried two 1x2 Technic bricks in the center, kind of a porthole affect, but again not likely.

 

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There are two other areas that are less important, but I had trouble figuring out from the fuzzy original image.

First the fuel tanks. I think I have it right or at least close?

36474870233_ff74118c2e_c.jpgIMG_20170917_142153827 by jet_flap, on Flickr

36891312000_1c574c7a72_c.jpgIMG_20170917_074124087 by jet_flap, on Flickr

Second, the black top of the engine compartment, the area with the two exhaust stacks. I did mine with 4 2x4 bricks in a row. This is probably not right, maybe instead a 4x8 plate on top with stacked 1x8 plates under it? Incidentally, The inside of the engine compartment is hollow save for the standard 2 train weights, except for the end with the ladders.

37116545942_c096ef0e0e_c.jpgIMG_20170917_142538052 by jet_flap, on Flickr

Lastly, I am quite pleased with how the headlamps worked out on the end. It took me quite a few different tries but I think I got it correct. In the end the solution was typical for LEGO of the era: Simple! I love trying to figure out these little details in recreating this set, and the sets from 7777.

37116546352_12c71a3fa1_c.jpgIMG_20170917_142038675 by jet_flap, on Flickr

36891311750_29cf9553c0_c.jpgIMG_20170917_141753514 by jet_flap, on Flickr

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For the middle back window: What about a black hinge vertical roof holder? 

https://www.bricklink.com/v2/catalog/catalogitem.page?P=4214#T=C

The upper part of this element without the roof counterpart shows done nice tiny details which can be used as windows frames.

Btw, great that you work on that prototype as a real model. I remember seeing this prototype before but can't remember where? BrickJournal or RailBricks magazine? 

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I think it would look pretty nice, but I don't think Lego would have used this part in that way. Too MOCish. I got the photo of the prototype right in this forum, along with 3 other ones. I think it was from a few years ago, and the photos were given to someone who had interviewed the designer. It may have originated from one of the magazines you mentioned, I'm not sure.

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Oh wow, that is a great little piece of history. I would agree about the windows (best being 1x1x2 + 1x2x1), but in a pinch replace the 1x2x1 with 1x2x2. If you dig up the original post of the prototypes that would a very interesting read as well.

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1 hour ago, zephyr1934 said:

If you dig up the original post of the prototypes that would a very interesting read as well.

Here it is from 2009:

 

On 1/20/2009 at 8:18 AM, Freddie said:

I posted some prototype trains a few pages back, but that's a while ago (and I've since cleared my attached files) so I'll re-post them. These are from the 80s, with a pair of prototype 9V trains, as well of two prototype 12V trains. Notice the use of parts that were never released, such as the nosepiece on the red loco, the 34 studs long baseplate for the car it's pulling, and the 1x3x5 doors on the brown crocodile locomotive.

und360x230us0tog11.jpg

und360x230us0tog14.jpg

und360x230us0tog4.jpg

und360x230us0tog9.jpg <- This eventually became the legendary 4558 Euro Express aka. Metroliner.

These pictures were actually released on to LEGO's train site, as part of a interview with a train designer, and as such were available to the public!

 

Also a link to the thread : https://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?/forums/topic/6833-pre-production-design/&page=5

 

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If you want to use only 80's parts, you can try with 1x2x2 shutter.

2017-09-18_22.01.35.jpg

With only 3 shutters

2017-09-18_22.11.55.jpg

 

Of course the white parts need to be yellow.

 

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4 hours ago, freestorm said:

If you want to use only 80's parts, you can try with 1x2x2 shutter.

I guess I shouldn't have been so specific when saying 80's since I'm not sure when the prototypes were developed. It could have been in 1990 or so, since two of the other prototypes are 9v, so I should have said "period correct." Your shutter variation looks nice, and indeed I did test out your single shutter model. I know the original photo is a bit blurry, but I am quite confident my version is correct in this regard. I did a careful measurement on the photo, and the single shutters are too narrow, the double too wide. The part didn't appear in a set until 1991 apparently, but it was surely available to LEGO designers for at least sometime before that. It looks like quite a few were used in brown on the brown prototype engine as well, a whopping 20 on the visible side.

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Another thing not yet mentioned is the pantograph of the crocodile locomotive - another part that never made it into production, right?

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On 9/20/2017 at 8:54 AM, ScotNick said:

Another thing not yet mentioned is the pantograph of the crocodile locomotive - another part that never made it into production, right?

I believe that is correct. Also, the large brown slope pieces at the front and rear, I don't think this part exists even today. Appears to be one continuous shallow slope, 1 brick of rise over 6 studs. 

On 9/20/2017 at 10:00 AM, Carrera124 said:

Regarding the rear window of the cabin - what about using a 1x4 trans-clear brick without inner tubes? Imho, this wouldn't look too old-styled.

Just the same one as it was used in set 7838:

https://www.bricklink.com/v2/catalog/catalogitem.page?P=3066&idColor=12#T=C&C=12

I agree that would look better than with the tubes.

Two of these panels would look pretty good too, but didn't appear in trans-clear until the late 90s I think. Could be installed in either direction.

4865.GIF

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On 9/20/2017 at 4:54 PM, ScotNick said:

Another thing not yet mentioned is the pantograph of the crocodile locomotive - another part that never made it into production, right?

Don't forget the doors either, they're 1x3x5. Though they could easily be substituted for standard train doors if it were to be recreated.

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