zephyr1934

Anyone know the secret history of the gray era 12v/4.5v system?

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This thread about the 7777 book got me thinking more about the gray era train system. The advances in the gray system were huge compared to anything before and in many ways have not been surpassed (by Lego) since. Holes in the ties to screw them down to a board, remote control switches/signals/decouplers, designs in the 7777 book that would inspire future advances (you can see prototypes for the BNSF and engine shed from the early 2000's in the book).

So now a days we get a hint at the designers of a set from the initials on the license plates or what have you. And for big changes Lego gathers some number of users in focus groups to give feedback. But in the 1980's Lego was still run like a family business and I would be surprised if they used any sort of focus groups. The gray era looks more like someone sat down and spent a long time thinking about how all of the pieces should go together.

Does anyone know who was the driving force behind all of the advances that became the gray era? Are there any other insights as to how/why it came off?

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Lots of questions I also would like to know the answers. Unfortunately I can not help with further details.

But yes, there must have been a good team in the late 70s which had the task to develop a better train system for the minifigs which just started to walk, drive cars or fly out in space. The track geometry didn't chance compared to the blue era, but it was advanced using a middle tie, clips and the holes you've mentioned to screw it down on a wooden plate. And of course the color did chance to become more realistic.

And I believe that this train system was focusing the German market. Even if it would not have been called a licence, but the DB (Deutsche Bahn) stickers are used on more less every train or wagon. And some trains are kind of modeled after the real prototypes, e. g. the 7740 which is even called TEE (Trans Europa Express) on the German catalogue. Maybe the designers were Germans? Or the German LEGO headquarters in Hohenwestedt (near Hamburg) ordered this series? 

Another indicator for targeting the German market could have been Playmobil which also came up with a toy  train system (based on LGB Lehmanns Garten Bahn) and the ever strong brand Märklin. Märklin focused on model railroaders 65+ and managers in Billund might have seen the chance to offer something similar for the younger audience.

Afree a strong of the gray era in 1980, it faded out from the mid of the decade. 1986 the last new releases came out and there were no special train related catalogues any more (at least in Germany). Accessory sets seems to be available till the beginning of the 90s, some came in redesigned boxes and you might find a 1989 copyright on such boxes. Unfortunately we didn't see any further development of sets. Already in the late 80s the 12 Volt system was dead when LEGO started the 9 Volt system first with "Light & Sound" in same emergency vehicles and space vessels.

You might find this brick list over at brickset helpful: https://brickset.com/sets/list-15314

For the library at brickset I've provided various scans of the train catalogues I got: https://brickset.com/library/catalogues

I will be in Skaerbaek for the LEGO Fan Weekend. I will try to find some LEGO employee who knows more about the gray era or design processes back in the 80s.

Holger

Edited by HoMa

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A lot of the sets came with logos for many European railways in addition to DB, but yes, I would agree that Germany was the most likely target audience.

I had no idea that Playmobil trains were that old and there certainly are a lot of similarities between the offerings from the two companies, with a collection of complete sets and individual cars/locos. That makes perfect sense that Lego would be working hard to keep Playmobil from getting an exclusive on trains. On the other end of the gray era I recall seeing a lego ad from the introduction of 9v that talked about the smooth transition. It was might have been this one, (the same thing in French can be found here)

 

Thanks for sharing the brick model railroader article, I guess there is a lot of nostalgia going around these days, and yes, that would be fantastic if you can find out more about the origins of the gray era

 

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What a fascinating story it would be to find out about the masterminds of the Grey Era! They certainly took LEGO trains to the next level - just looking at @HoMa's brick list brings back a lot of memories, but also those pangs of regret - some of the sets were so advanced but so expensive!

As train sets go, the iconic 7740, 7745 and 7750 were always out of reach for me as a kid, but after starting with a 7710 I was lucky enough to be able to expand over many years, adding a 7725 and 7730 - and you would certainly have been forgiven for thinking the entire thing was a DB promotional exercise - every photo, every building instruction, used the DB stickers as the default. 

The track/trackside accessories were really the standout though. Incredibly sophisticated and beautifully thought-out with the elegant clipping mechanism to add beside the transformer. How I loved that double-page spread in 7777 with the monstrously-huge, colour-coded control panel! The remote-controlled level-crossing was another unobtainably-expensive set, one I still haven't got in my collection.

As a lucky/unlucky owner of a 7862 remote decoupler (it was a gift, but I really wanted a 7760 signal!), I can report that while a fantastic idea, it was *extremely* unreliable - a rare mistake from the Grey Era masterminds.

 

 

 

 

Edited by jmchisel
typos

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I too have been interested in the history of the grey era for a long time, and haven't been able to find much.

A while back I contacted @LEGO Historian (Gary Istok) as I thought he might know some details, specifically, who the designers were, however, he didn't have any information on this.

I would love to find out more about the era that has made so many of us poor!!! If I could get some leads I would even think about making a documentary on the subject.

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12 hours ago, HoMa said:

Latest article id's worse reading if you ate a gray era train fan:

Fans gegessen? Wer macht denn sowas?

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Interesting read, any additional information would be great. Thanks for the various links Holger!

 

On 9/15/2017 at 8:13 PM, jmchisel said:

As a lucky/unlucky owner of a 7862 remote decoupler (it was a gift, but I really wanted a 7760 signal!), I can report that while a fantastic idea, it was *extremely* unreliable - a rare mistake from the Grey Era masterminds.

Interesting, I own two of these and tried them out quite a bit. It's been a few years, but I seem to remember them working quite well for me given their reputation after a little practice.

 

 

 

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I'd welcome any information that anyone can find - and many thanks to those who have provided interesting links and pictures!

This was 'my' era and I just took it all for granted at the time. Then they announced that they were going to release a new system but promo material seemed to indicate it would still be compatible - which it was in terms of gauge and literally nothing else! And what an upgrade - all automation removed, more limited multi-train options and launching with an ugly grey train! I've softened on the appeal of the 'Euro Express' since, but still see the 9v system as a whole a step backwards.... :(

On the positive side, my parents were able to pick up lots of track etc at sale prices when shops began to clear their stock in the early 90s.... :)

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Very interesting (and nostalgic :cry_happy:) forum!

The 7740 was my first love and despite I'm an Italian (old) guy, I have always wanted to conform to the lego catalogs by applying the beautiful DB stickers on every my convoy! :wink:
The main market of this era was certainly Germany, but who was the development team of the gray era I have never known but I would like to know like many of you.

12volt-367.jpg

Bonus pictures... :laugh:

12volt-403.jpg

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Oh those good old days... But I am also curious in the development of the system at that time. I must say that back then also "normal" model railroad trains and accessories were available in abundance. I remember complete sections filled with these in my toys stores. But now... Hardly any train to see. So it was also typical of that time.

@LEGO Train 12 Volts Don't make me even more jealous than I already am. :tongue:

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It would be good to hear more about the background to the 4.5/12v trains. I think that someone high up in LEGO was very keen on trains. Looking at old catalogues there was always a high proportion of trains compared to what is available now.

I also liked that some of the different sets were linked by using red & yellow as a colour scheme.

I wrote an article for Brickset a few years ago about 12V trains - https://brickset.com/article/11351/classic-lego-sets-12v-trains

also about the blue track era https://brickset.com/article/11954/classic-lego-sets-blue-track-trains

and the 9V era https://brickset.com/article/11532/classic-lego-sets-9v-trains  

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Some weeks ago, I started an article series about the grey era for Promobricks. Until now, 6 parts have been released, many more will follow:
https://www.promobricks.de/category/lego-eisenbahn

It's written in german, so readers will be limited. But I will show some pictures and scans of catalogs, which most probably most people never have seen before.

HoMa already knows the complete text and most of the pictures :classic:

Besides Playmobil, there were 2 more remarkable companies: Fischertechnik introduced it's H0-sized "Bauspielbahn" (build & play train), but it was dropped only a few years later.

And Faller overhauled it's previous "playtrain" system and introduced the "E-Train" in 1980:
http://www.gunnar-gröbel.de/html/faller_train/etrain/etrain.html
 

It looks as if 1979-1980 was THE time to introduce a new toy train system...

Edited by Carrera124

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10 hours ago, Carrera124 said:

It looks as if 1979-1980 was THE time to introduce a new toy train system...

Hmmmm, that might be the answer to getting more love from TLG in regards to trains - Lego needs a strong competitor in the model train market and just maybe we will get more choices!

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If this is true, then there is no hope. Playmobil dropped their train series at the end of 2015 - they (and the retailers) just sell the remains of the stock.

"Brio" and "Märklin My world" seem to be the only competitors that have survived.

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It was good to read the article by Carrera124 about the history of LEGO trains - after translating it using Google.

Please post on the forum when you add more sections. I was surprised that you wrote 6 sections but only covered the first year (1980) of the 12V system, it would be good to hear your comments on the rest of the range.

I hadn't realised that the single blue/red passenger carriage 7818 was no longer available when 7715 the push along steam train with blue/red carriages was released.

With the buildings, you could not see any logic with the included track sometimes including conducting middle rails – I think the more advanced buildings had 12V track, the simpler buildings had the non-electric track.

You suggested that the train station 7822 and bus station 379 could be combined – they could but so could most of the train and LEGOLAND buildings – the Fire Station 6382 was also similar but I think this is more to do with the limited colour palate and the flat roof design.

I couldn't understand the section on the remote controlled elements about how there had been a change in design – maybe all my sets are of the older style.

Everybody comments on how good the remote control elements were but I think there were several disadvantages. The wires are messy (a conventional model railway has them hidden under the base board). The points (turnouts) are not self isolating therefore to run two trains on the same track you must have at least two signals 7860 – they look nice but are  an expensive addition.

The remote controlled de-coupler 7862 was omitted from the discussion – maybe because it was released in 1981.

Looking back over the 12V range I'm impressed with the consistency of the sets – it does appear as if they were designed by one person. The same also looks true for the start of the 9V system. It would be good to also know about the secret history of the 9V system!

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4 hours ago, Dav1d said:

It was good to read the article by Carrera124 about the history of LEGO trains - after translating it using Google.

Please post on the forum when you add more sections. I was surprised that you wrote 6 sections but only covered the first year (1980) of the 12V system, it would be good to hear your comments on the rest of the range.

 

Thank you for your feedback. Unfortunately, I cannot figure out how to switch the EB editor back to BBcode, so I cannot quote single sections from your answer.

  • First of all - yes, right now, part #6 ends with the end of year 1980. Together with the introduction, this covers ~ 35% of the complete text, so many more parts will follow. The decoupler 7862 will be handled in the 1981 section.
  • Buildings and conducting rails: Yes, I cannot see any logic in that. I do not consider the big stations 7822 as "simple" buildings :wink: . And in contrast, the crossing 7834 has middle rails, but I can't see anything advanced in this set.
  • Remote controlled elements: The remote devices exist in (at least) 2 variants: First, the rear lower edge had no groove, and the contacts were visible as metal rings. Later on, the rear lower edge was modified with 2 studs groove, which makes it easier to remove the 2x8 plates underneath. Moreover, the second version has flat plastic covered holes and doesn't show the metal rings any more.
    The 12v switch baseplates from 7856, -58 and -59 also exist in 2 variants: first, they had 4 technic-style pins. As we all know, these pins often break when the switch motor is removed. Later version of the baseplate came without these technic-styled pins, just with normal studs.
    And the boxes got a major overhaul in 1989: styrofoam was omitted. Some boxes became smaller, while others grew bigger. The final version of 7864 even has a "1990" copyright on it...

 

Moreover, when I checked my sets with BL inventories, I found out that BL was inconsistent, and that some parts were unknown to BL.

Therefore, I made an approach to create a so-called "train parts master list", tha describes
a) which part in which variants exist
b) which years can be assigned to each part variant
I discussed with many other collectors, but it was really hard - sometimes impossible - to get a consensus. It is really complex.
Whoever wants to look at it and contribute, I uploaded a PDF version:
http://www.124er.de/temp/lego_train_parts_master_table.pdf
Important: there are many blanks, many question marks, and lots of "best guesses".

3 different boxes for 7864:

  • 1980 version ((c) 1980 on the instructions), black lever with open top, "big" instructions
  • 1982 version ((c) 1982 on the instructions), black lever with closed top, "small" instructions
  • 1990 version, bigger box

7864.jpg

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21 hours ago, Dav1d said:

...Looking back over the 12V range I'm impressed with the consistency of the sets – it does appear as if they were designed by one person. The same also looks true for the start of the 9V system. It would be good to also know about the secret history of the 9V system!

I agree, it's either one person or a very small group. These sets definitely don't look like they were "designed by a committee"!!!

No watering down here!

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22 hours ago, Carrera124 said:

Thank you for your feedback. Unfortunately, I cannot figure out how to switch the EB editor back to BBcode, so I cannot quote single sections from your answer.

  • First of all - yes, right now, part #6 ends with the end of year 1980. Together with the introduction, this covers ~ 35% of the complete text, so many more parts will follow. The decoupler 7862 will be handled in the 1981 section.
  • Buildings and conducting rails: Yes, I cannot see any logic in that. I do not consider the big stations 7822 as "simple" buildings :wink: . And in contrast, the crossing 7834 has middle rails, but I can't see anything advanced in this set.
  • Remote controlled elements: The remote devices exist in (at least) 2 variants: First, the rear lower edge had no groove, and the contacts were visible as metal rings. Later on, the rear lower edge was modified with 2 studs groove, which makes it easier to remove the 2x8 plates underneath. Moreover, the second version has flat plastic covered holes and doesn't show the metal rings any more.
    The 12v switch baseplates from 7856, -58 and -59 also exist in 2 variants: first, they had 4 technic-style pins. As we all know, these pins often break when the switch motor is removed. Later version of the baseplate came without these technic-styled pins, just with normal studs.
    And the boxes got a major overhaul in 1989: styrofoam was omitted. Some boxes became smaller, while others grew bigger. The final version of 7864 even has a "1990" copyright on it...

 

Moreover, when I checked my sets with BL inventories, I found out that BL was inconsistent, and that some parts were unknown to BL.

Therefore, I made an approach to create a so-called "train parts master list", tha describes
a) which part in which variants exist
b) which years can be assigned to each part variant
I discussed with many other collectors, but it was really hard - sometimes impossible - to get a consensus. It is really complex.
Whoever wants to look at it and contribute, I uploaded a PDF version:
http://www.124er.de/temp/lego_train_parts_master_table.pdf
Important: there are many blanks, many question marks, and lots of "best guesses".

3 different boxes for 7864:

  • 1980 version ((c) 1980 on the instructions), black lever with open top, "big" instructions
  • 1982 version ((c) 1982 on the instructions), black lever with closed top, "small" instructions
  • 1990 version, bigger box

7864.jpg

Nice index, maybe I can help a little in a week, my dad has a nice 12v-collection. Maybe you should add a little note that you can check the week/year a certain 12v motor was produced by looking underneath it. Also, you should add an index over the boxes if you want to make it even more detailed.

 

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5 hours ago, Edde said:

 Also, you should add an index over the boxes if you want to make it even more detailed.

 

That would be the 3rd step.

2nd step should be to create correct inventories incl. alternates for all sets. Right now, at least 3 different variants for e.g. 7740 would result.

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I have a 1981 train European version catalogue which mentions that 7750 was not available in Italy, UK and France.

I assume it was only released in Danmark, Germany, Netherlands and probably Belgium as it's written in French on the box.

One more reason for this set to be the most expensive nowadays.

 

 

Edited by Bloodwave

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9 hours ago, Bloodwave said:

I have a 1981 train European version catalogue which mentions that 7750 was not available in Italy, UK and France.

I assume it was only released in Danmark, Germany, Netherlands and probably Belgium as it's written in French on the box.

One more reason for this set to be the most expensive nowadays.

 

 

And explains why I could never find it in shops as a child, despite it featuring in the amazing layout photos that graced the back of the instructions for other 12v sets (and of course 7777 Ideas Book)....

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