Milan

Scale Modelling Forum needs your input!

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Hi all!

As you noticed, we have upgraded Scale Modelling Forum into the full blown forum.

Now we would like to hear from you guys: what, in your opinion, regarding vehicles, belongs in the SMF? I specifically mean size-wise and complexity-wise.

So, scale model is, for example, this:

29687001942_75c4c024e1_b.jpg

It has nearly perfect proportions, no gaps in the body, has more than decent size, features like openable doors, and has functions like steering, outriggers, working ladder etc.

 

But, can we say that this:

2838484-o_1b7gutvmgb8mdb617omvmp16ekp-thumbnail-full.jpg

...is also a Scale Model that fits in Scale Modelling Forum?

This IS a scale model, beautiful scale model, but should this model be in SMF, since it is smaller and therefore less complex and has less details, has no functions etc.?

Do you think there should be a line which should not be crossed?

Do you think there should be size, level of details, or functions requirement?

What criteria is most important for you?

Other thoughts?

 

We would like to hear from all of you guys, so please take a minute or two and let us know what you think, so we can together make this forum the best we can!

This discussion has already started in SMF discussion topic, but we would rather have it here for more visibility, and we will merge it later.

Thanks!

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Well, in my opinion, there should be functions in a scale model. Opening doors, steering, working cranes, and it should have a decent size. 1:24 as sort of minimum scale.

A good looking, more Technic like, but very realistic supercar can be put in here also, as long as it is not to open, must have a good build body.

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The bottom belongs here too because in my eyes those are scale models of Porsche and very close to what is possible in that scale in Lego.

Eurobricks is about Lego and this is a scale modelling forum.

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Since this is supposed to be a scale modelling forum than the projects should mainly look like their real life counterparts. The amount of functions and their complexity should not impede their right to be in here. This is not Technic.

The little Porsches look awesome and seem to keep very good proportions. Thus they should stay in the SMF. I assume they will not get as much recognition and praise as for example one of Sariel's tanks but they should definately be allowed a place in the SMF.

Maybe a special 'Pretty Little Models' thread could be created for all the smaller models?

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Maybe the key word should be Model.  It's supposed to replicate something that exists, I don't think the scale or the amount of functions is relevant.

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Scale model = an accurate scaled down or up copy of a thing that exists already. 
Technic, mindstorm ect.. = Anything else. 


Best explained by:

An engine can be a motor. But a motor can't be an engine. 

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I understand the sentiments of reputable scale modelers who do not want smaller, less detailed models in this forum, but I think it is also slightly arrogant and hypocritical to dictate what models cannot exist in this forum. The porches shown above are mostly scaled correctly and therefore by definition are scale models, but do not have the details that most models have. 

 

Solution: 

Create a sub-forum for said smaller scale models

result: 

Both the scale modelers and newcomers would be satisfied.

 

In regard to details: 

If the exact type of the real life counterpart is apparent to the viewer it should go in scalemodeling, but if not, it should be in the technic and model team.

 

I think there should not be any function requirement.

 

One other Question:

Does interior detail matter, of say a cabin of a truck?

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You could argue that most Technic models are scale models too...

I think if it has any advanced fuctions (like drive, steer, RC, etc) it is a Technic model (so like Sariel's latest tank would be a Technic model). If it is built out of studless parts, it is a Technic model. If it is a scale model of an existing vehicle, it goes to the Scale Modeling Forum. If it is a car like some Creator sets, then I think it should be in the Special Themes Forum.

Edited by LvdH

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I personally think both should qualify as scale models since they are both scale models in the end.  Scale modeling is not defined by size or function, rather accuracy to a real-life vehicle.

Edit: Eurobricks is for all AFOLs, regardless of skill. Barring out a portion of scale modeling (the bottom in this case) will greatly reduce the diversity of the SMF. It would become an elite club for the same few people (the people who build those gigantic, beautiful models) with an occasional newcomer.

I hope what I am saying makes sense.

Edited by BrickbyBrickTechnic

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I think it is enough for a scale model to be generally perceived as 'true to scale'. It should resemble something we can imagine to be a real object, but it need not necessarily be a copy of a real life object. What about a highly detailed motorcycle that we all perceive as real, but doesn't resemble anything real. Such models should not be excluded. Function are nice to haves and size should not matter at all imo. Big will mostly be more accurate, but small is sometimes more clever.

The Porsches shown are enough 'true to scale' to me, they are instantly recognizable, have no holes, etc. So I'd say they belong in the scale model forum.

I would even think more cartoonish models should be allowed too, as long as they are instantly recognizable as something we can imagine to stumble upon in real life. No need to have all the details in place, no need to ressemble a real object. But I can imagine others would exclude this category. EDIT: Not sure about this category myself actually. I guess the 'Creator'-style models do not belong in this forum, they would blur the theme too much.

800x400.jpg

800x400.jpg

Edited by Didumos69

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5 hours ago, Milan said:

should not be crossed?

Do you think there should be size, level of details, or functions requirement?

What criteria is most important for you?

Other thoughts?

I think the name scale model refers to building a model of a car, boot, truck, house ect. Of the real thing. That being sayd, it is trying to get as close as possible to the real thing. Cars for example with doors witch can open, a lot of details ect. If you have a little build, that is allmost impossible. So minimum size would be recommended. A maximum size could be as big as you want it to be. This because the bigger it gets, the more details you can bring in to it. An example is are the trains from @Bricksonwheels. Or the ships from @Edwin Korstanje. Maybe it is an option to create a mine scale modeling subforum. And if the staff see that is going to be to big to be a subforum, then a normal forum is an option. But i think that scale modeling shouldend be limited to cars alone. Say you build a beautyfull moc of lets say the Eiffel Tower on scale with all the details, then that can also be qualifeid as a scale model...


 

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Without taking anything away from the excellent scale vehicles displayed in this forum-------

I would like to see more non vehicle scale models. As an example I am working on a minifig scale Blast furnace and casting facility. It combines technic, remote control (Sbrick), train and and EV3 controlled elements. Having a place to show this kind of a combined build would be nice.

The ones that are on the forum show excellent work and I guess I'm interested in promoting scale modelling and 'multi-media' type builds.

Ed

Edited by knotian

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2 hours ago, LvdH said:

You could argue that most Technic models are scale models too...

I think if it has any advanced fuctions (like drive, steer, RC, etc) it is a Technic model (so like Sariel's latest tank would be a Technic model). If it is built out of studless parts, it is a Technic model. If it is a scale model of an existing vehicle, it goes to the Scale Modeling Forum. If it is a car like some Creator sets, then I think it should be in the Special Themes Forum.

I think builds with normal bricks will be more realistic. A car, truck, boat ect. dont have holes in them in real life. And a truck like the trucks from @dikkie klijn or @2LegoOrNot2Lego... are more realistic. If you want the technic models to be realistic, the you should build it in the way the horsetruck from @Edwin Korstanje is build. Dont get me wrong i like the technic models a lot ( have a few build from @Lucio Switch) but creator build is something else then a scale model. And maybe not every build is 100% as it should be ( my vw t1 is an example of that ) but that is the way to learn. You have an idea, build it, post it and get comments on it. The little models are nice also, but like allready sayd here in is this topic, a scale model is a little version of the real thing. With all working components, and a realistic look to the real thing.. Thats why i would like to see those little builds  ( for now and maybe in the future in its own forum ) sub forum.:wink:


 
Edited by JDL1967

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This is one of those questions that seem simple and get more complicated the longer you think about it.

To me, the small Porches are definitely scale models, while the small models posted by @Didumos69 are definitely not. I think it comes down to whether I need to make a mental check if it's actually Lego or not. Or, worded differently, is it a model which happens to be made with Lego, or is it Lego made into a cool model. (Does the model transcend the medium or not.)

Perhaps a tagging system could be applied, something that mentions scale and maybe whether it's a vehicle or a building for instance.

 

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I think Speed Champions-style and other minifig-scale vehicles should find their home in this new forum. At the moment they are posted in the Town forum but they get lost easily. A small scale model can still be a model - smaller representation of the original object - although due to the limitations of the building material (lego pieces) at that scale not all functions can be presented in a fully functional way. If the intention is to replicate the original look, then I think it can be treated as a scale model.

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1 hour ago, DutchChris said:

To me, the small Porches are definitely scale models, while the small models posted by @Didumos69 are definitely not. I think it comes down to whether I need to make a mental check if it's actually Lego or not. Or, worded differently, is it a model which happens to be made with Lego, or is it Lego made into a cool model. (Does the model transcend the medium or not.)

The more I think about it, the more I tend to agree with your line of thinking. The Creator-like models I showed don't belong here. The mental check if it's actually LEGO seems like a good way to draw the line, imo.

Edited by Didumos69

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For me is easier, a real scale model is proportionated with its wheels, the truck is a real scale model the porsche has oversize wheels.

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e

10 hours ago, Milan said:

But, can we say that this:

<image of cars removed>

...is also a Scale Model that fits in Scale Modelling Forum?

This IS a scale model, beautiful scale model, but should this model be in SMF, since it is smaller and therefore less complex and has less details, has no functions etc.?

 

If you agree that it is a scale model, then it has a place in the scale modeling forum. Otherwise you should change the name of the forum. This will mean some overlap with other forums, but I'd say that if a significant design consideration has been in keeping the relative proportions as close as possible to the same scale over the whole model, then you can display it in the SMF. Size, complexity, functions oughtn't to come into it. As a sub-forum of Technic, then perhaps you could make a case for requiring some level of functionality, given that Technic is all about functions, but for a full-sized forum I think that's too restrictive.

I'm in two minds about whether to stipulate that the subject matter should be a real-life object. My first thought was that yes, you need to have something on which to model your model.
But then I looked at that fire-truck again. We all agree that this belongs in SMF, but is it based on a real-life vehicle? Probably? Maybe? Who knows? I've certainly never seen a fire-truck like that, but that doesn't mean they don't exist - and even if it doesn't exist, it certainly looks like it could exist. So maybe Didumos' suggestion of "something we can imagine to stumble upon in real life" has merit.
But again, suppose someone builds a beautifully proportioned model of something that definitely doesn't exist (I'm struggling to think of something that wouldn't fit in any other forum, maybe a dinosaur or something). Wouldn't we want to see that, too?

Actually, the more I think of it, the less sure I am of what SMF is for. Why, for example, would that beautiful fire-truck not belong in the Town forum?

Anyway, these are just my two cents. It's not like I'm going to stop lurking solely in the Technic forum, so y'all can just do whatever you want :-)

Owen.

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I've never really taken to the beams-n-pins Technic theme (really just too complex for my head) so I do appreciate that there's a place for high-detail, plates-n-bricks-n-slopes work apart from the Brickheadz and Minifig threads in Special Themes.

That said, maybe the answer to this isn’t so much in honing the definition of a “scale model” but instead looking at the problem that is the melee of “Special Themes.” It’s much too much of a catch-all and pretty much everything gets lost in there. The more it grows, the worse that problem is going to get...

A quick look and I see:

  • Brickheadz
  • Minifigs
  • Architecture
  • Tiny Turbos
  • Creator
  • Speed Champions
  • City-scale ish sub-Speed Champion MOCs
  • Super-detailed scale military mega MOCS
  • Saturn V Rockets
  • Piggy bank mods

Perhaps Special Themes should be managed to be less of “Everything Else” and get more organized. Perhaps it should be broken up in more granularity; get all the Architecture stuff together in its own (sub?) forum. Get the Brickheadz infection into its own forum. Give the Minifig collectible debates a place to call home. If the more granular corners of the community have a clearer sense of place, they’ll be able to thrive and maybe Scale Models can be inclusive without worry about its own identity.

There are builds lost in that randomness which, to me, are exactly the kind of work that should be in Scale Modeling. GiantAmbushBeetle’s stellar MOCs aren’t of specific cars but are precisely what I’d consider “Lego scale modeling” https://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?/forums/topic/152804-moc-group-c-race-car/ 

Even then, the lines are hazy... Shouldn't the accurately-scaled super-detailed and highly-researched Saturn V be here instead of tucked in Special Themes with its Ideas-mates Wall-E and the Old Fishing Store? I really don't know, though I think putting some clarity around the Themes which can easily be clarified (there's no mistaking a Brickhead), the remainder may sort itself out.

Edited by prototyp

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Or a few subforums

Scale modeling with mostly technic

Scale modeling mini builds

Scale modeling of non vehicle builds..

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I already predidcted this discussion.

I dare to say that our book The Art of Lego Scale Modeling sums it all up from my part. Scale modeling as a LEGO niche started already in the 90s. My friend Dennis Bosman can be considered as one of the founders of the genre and the niche developped greatly the last years, heavily influenced by a small group of builders.

The concept of scale modeling is building with Lego bricks as main medium and custom addons to create the most realistic true scale models. Our scope has always been vehicles, trains, ships and trains. In other words the common scale modeling subjects. Realism is the key, and too small scale just lacks that.

What I consider scalemodels:

Planes: Ralph Savelsberg, Carl Greatrix

Ships: Konarja, Edwin Kostanje

Cars: Firas, Carl Greatrix, Luca Rusconi, Andrea Lattnazio

Trucks: Ingmar Spijkhoven, Dennis Bosman, Nanko Klein Paste, etc.. but also Lasse, who managed to create wonderful trucks in 1:22 scale

Trains: Not the regular trains, as 6 to 8 wides are far off scale. There are however some true scale trains around that are very good.

It will always be a discussion regarding quality, but not all have equal skills and budget, but the aim should be the same.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Bricksonwheels

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Differentiating between the two models mentioned above in Milan's post would be like considering a 1/64th scale Hot Wheels car and a 1/12th scale model kit of the same vehicle. The 1/64th scale model captures the external features of the original vehicle. Though that is the limitations with the scale is all you can achieve is the external aesthetics of the body. While the 1/12th scale model captures the entirety of the original vehicle to the best capabilities of the medium used, it pushes the limits of the material, recreating the detail of every aspect to the original vehicle. This is how I would describe the differences between creator style sets and some of the super-detailed models that should be the main defining factor for what is considered a Lego scale model, not just a rendition that appears to be similar to its real world counterpart. 

The attention to details and the methodical design process for a large scale model is what defines the challenge and the painstakingly long process that it takes to go from a blueprint to a highly accurate scale model. These models can take weeks if not months to build. I really enjoy seeing the effort and skill that it takes to accurately build something and push the limitations of what is possible with Lego. This often doesn't just involve making the model look nice, at larger scales you encounter the limits of what Lego pieces are structurally capable of, not to mention the added challenge of making the model functional with motors. That adds an additional level of complexity and challenge to the design process. Another definitive factor for the scale modeling forum would be the time investment, If you look at the first model, to build something of that scale and detail is going to take monumentally more time to design and the time carefully planning and scaling the model and its various components will take more effort than the couple hours required to design and build the creator style models below. The time and effort is immense, the research process to replicate details is not something to be taken lightly, and I think placing such smaller models in this form degrades the overall quality for the appreciation to build a detailed scale model is not an easy task to do. 

Drawing the line between the two models as being scale models may be a little misconceiving, as by the definition of scale models, both would fit, though for a definition of Lego scale models would be the immense amount of effort and time that goes into conceiving a true scale replica of its real world counterpart. Setting a scale limitation isn't the best solution either as for architecture or say ship models, building a 1/25th or bigger is rather improbable to do considering the costs and pieces required.  

This forum should bring together the small community of the amazing scale modelers, to provide assistance, and direction to inspire others to build scale models of similar stature. 

Edited by Tommy Styrvoky

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