Brethren of the Brick Seas (BoBS) Intro Thread, Era II

[Mesabi]

Okay question about buying troops. 

Quote

There is a limit to how many soldiers can be "recruited" (i.e., purchased and MOC'd) from a settlement during any MRCA period, based on the settlement's level:

Hamlet:          can't recruit troops
Town:             10 men per MRCA
Large Town:   30 men per MRCA
City:                60 men per MRCA
Large City:      90 men per MRCA
Grand City:   180 men per MRCA
Capital City:  270 men per MRCA

Is this per player, or total per settlement?

[LM71Blackbird]

3 minutes ago, Mesabi said:

Okay question about buying troops. 

Is this per player, or total per settlement?

Gonna say this is per settlement. If you re-read it, the limit is based on settlement size.

[Darnok]

I just wonder myself. Could I recruit from all Corrington settlements (according to their size), given I have sufficient funds? Or is there also a limit on how many troops each player can raise in total per turn?

Edited August 16, 2018 by Drunknok

[LM71Blackbird]

2 minutes ago, Drunknok said:

I just wonder myself. Could I recruit from all Corrington settlements (according to their size), given I have sufficient funds? Or is there also a limit on how many troops each player can raise in total per turn?

Hmm… I wonder that too... if that is the case given the current status of the rules that would make it quite easy to build an army...

[Bregir]

Each settlement can recruit as many troops as the rules apply. (not per player)

So if no one else is recruiting troops, you could technically recruit the maximum amount in all settlements. That would not give you an army, but many small units. To bring them together, you will need to transport them by sea.

[Maxim I]

3 hours ago, Bregir said:

Each settlement can recruit as many troops as the rules apply. (not per player)

So if no one else is recruiting troops, you could technically recruit the maximum amount in all settlements. That would not give you an army, but many small units. To bring them together, you will need to transport them by sea.

Aha, so that means that if I want to establish an army, I need to recruit every month 60 soldiers in Trador for example?

I thought the rules were: a settlement can recruit max a number of troops regarding its size (for itself), but players still can recruit limitless.

[gedren_y]

Don't troops incur upkeep costs?

[Capt Wolf]

10 hours ago, Mesabi said:

Is this per player, or total per settlement?

Per settlement. A settlement is able to produce only so many able-bodied recruits per month, regardless of who is recruiting them.

1 hour ago, gedren_y said:

Don't troops incur upkeep costs?

Yes.

4 hours ago, Maxim I said:

Aha, so that means that if I want to establish an army, I need to recruit every month 60 soldiers in Trador for example?

Yes, that is a valid strategy.

4 hours ago, Maxim I said:

I thought the rules were: a settlement can recruit max a number of troops regarding its size (for itself), but players still can recruit limitless.

Nope.

9 hours ago, Drunknok said:

Could I recruit from all Corrington settlements (according to their size), given I have sufficient funds? Or is there also a limit on how many troops each player can raise in total per turn?

 

9 hours ago, LM71Blackbird said:

Hmm… I wonder that too... if that is the case given the current status of the rules that would make it quite easy to build an army...

 

Currently there is no limit on how many troops each player may recruit in a month. Note that troops must start at their recruitment location, and a separate MOC is required for each. You might want to check with local mayors or faction leaders before recruiting out the entire COR troop resource for a given month, but technically you can do it.

That said, time for leadership to start bricking up some loopholes...

[Maxim I]

Can one use a MOC for both a property and a troop raising thing?

If I make a MOC of troops in Trador visiting a bakery, can I use it for both? Otherwise I fear it will be kinda boring...

[SilentWolf]

1 hour ago, Maxim I said:

Can one use a MOC for both a property and a troop raising thing?

If I make a MOC of troops in Trador visiting a bakery, can I use it for both? Otherwise I fear it will be kinda boring...

In the past, they have been able to be. I don't know whether or not leadership wishes to change it with the new rules, but precedent says it is acceptable. 

Edited August 16, 2018 by SilentWolf

[Kwatchi]

14 minutes ago, SilentWolf said:

In the past, they have been able to be. I don't know whether or not leadership  wishs to change it with the new rules, but precedent says it is acceptable. 

Really? I always believed a MOC could only be licensed as one thing.  MRCA as MRCA, FB as property/ship/sister-ship build, etc..  Only exception were challenge builds which counted as an entry and could be licensed when specified..

If people have been double-dipping, that is very... 'cheesy' is the only term I can get away with here.

[SilentWolf]

9 minutes ago, Kwatchi said:

Really? I always believed a MOC could only be licensed as one thing.  MRCA as MRCA, FB as property/ship/sister-ship build, etc..  Only exception were challenge builds which counted as an entry and could be licensed when specified..

If people have been double-dipping, that is very... 'cheesy' is the only term I can get away with here.

There is nothing in the rules that states that a build can not be used for what it is. So if my MRCA build shows a building or dock, I can license it appropriately. If my MRCA build is a ship, I can license that ship. The MRCA only designates a different type of entry, as in not simply a Freebuild. It doesn't have any other specifications. The same applies for all other types of builds historically. The first type of build that was designated as not usable as more than one item, was the ship limit increase, and the commanders of fleets. 

[Legostone]

Troops have, unlike other licenseable things, no given limit for the size of their MOC, so I don’t see an issue recruting them alongside another build. Though I’m not sure if a bakery is a good example...  Maybe if you wanna license a group of baguette warriors?

[Darnok]

As far as I am aware, "troop builds" do not come with any requirements at all, so anything from a small vignette to a 100x100 parade ground is accaptable - right? Going with this, licensing a build as one thing and also using it to show troops to recruit is perfectly fine in my opinion. I also prefer a build that organically includes some troops - in contrast to "here is a plate with some soldier minifigs in lines on it". Both are accaptable of course, I just prefer one over the other.

[Kai NRG]

2 hours ago, Kwatchi said:

Really? I always believed a MOC could only be licensed as one thing.  MRCA as MRCA, FB as property/ship/sister-ship build, etc..  Only exception were challenge builds which counted as an entry and could be licensed when specified..

As a general rule of thumb I think in the past the criteria for "double licensing" builds has been whether they showed effort in two directions.  Eg. Maxim could build a small bakery on a 16x16 and a platform with troops on it and post and license each separately; or he could combine them into one build.  Clearly from a build quality POV a 20x20 bakery + soldiers is nicer than a smaller bakery and "figs on a plate".  Or for instance it would be perfectly legitimate to build a dock and include a ship that's licensed separately, provided both show effort.  Or to build a 16x32 with half the space dedicated to a forge and half to a brewery, and license that as two small artisans.  Multiplying threads is not necessary.  Although, I should mention, doing so will I believe flag the forms for leadership and they will have to manually verify that the creation is indeed worthy of two licenses.  Bottom line: footprint/size should justify two licenses.  The amount of pictures you take/threads you post it in is secondary.

MRCA is a different animal, personally I've understood with SilentWolf that a MRCA build can be used just like a Free Build (though I've never used it that way).  You can't submit a MRCA build as a FB, but you don't license MRCAs, as MRCAs, so licensing them as whatever they actually are (provided they are a unique build that falls within property license/ship license categories) seems to me perfectly legitimate.

[gedren_y]

I did this with the Valiant Phoenix, licensing the ship, and the warehouse on the dock as a small commercial property.

[Elostirion]

By leadership in the ESL A-MRCA:

On 7/20/2018 at 9:35 AM, Bregir said:

[...]

• A permanent mission
  Eslandola must establish a permanent mission to Terraversa at once to give mutual good relations the best possible starting point.
  Build (and license) the embassy, and show preparations for the arrival of the first ambassador. It must be a medium or large property.

[...]

[Bregir]

To make it clear:

Builds can generally be licensed, if they meet the requirements for a licensable build. This is regardless of whether it is a troop build, MRCA build, or a freebuild, for instance.

What is important is that the build meets the requirements for each function it serves. The requirements for a troop build is that it represents the troops and explains how many and where the troops are being raised. The requirement for a property build is that it shows some sort of licensable property in the proper size and with the proper effort.

There is no reason a 32x32 (or perhaps 32x40, etc.) build cannot serve both as a troop raising build and as a medium property. We have no interest in discouraging larger builds with several different properties and stories going on. That said, in case of insufficient effort, it is the courts right and duty to step in, regardless of which aspect is being underrepresented (in terms of effort and possibly stud count).

[Darnok]

@dr_spock

 

Just asking: what is the planned schedule for this years NTSC? Last year planning started back in July, with the whole thing being done in September. I assume you want to wait for Challenge II to end, I just wonder when we can expect the NTSC afterwards.

 

P.S.: Something with your user profile is very odd. You are shown as "Last visited September 21, 2016", while you were active just hours ago...

Edited August 31, 2018 by Drunknok

[Darnok]

Also @Capt Wolf: what is the status on this years Weelond Octoberfest? The real world one is in about three weeks from now.

[Capt Wolf]

47 minutes ago, Drunknok said:

Also @Capt Wolf: what is the status on this years Weelond Octoberfest? The real world one is in about three weeks from now.

It's been on my mind. I try to change it up a bit each year. I'll have something come October.

[dr_spock]

On 8/31/2018 at 1:57 AM, Drunknok said:

@dr_spock

 

Just asking: what is the planned schedule for this years NTSC? Last year planning started back in July, with the whole thing being done in September. I assume you want to wait for Challenge II to end, I just wonder when we can expect the NTSC afterwards.

 

P.S.: Something with your user profile is very odd. You are shown as "Last visited September 21, 2016", while you were active just hours ago...

Aye, it is not good etiquette to run another challenge while a major challenge is happening. 

It could be I'm logging in from the Tardis. 

Unexpected Visitors by dr_spock_888, on Flickr

 

[Mesabi]

So, I've been doing some investigating on forts, and I've got to say, in the current game they're quite overpowered. 

From my research, and my simulations, it would take five class 5 ships, fully loaded with troops. (in total, 125 men) to overwhelm a large fort even somewhat reliably. (This is using the HMS Pegasus, a standard faction warship, as a model. (Guns: 4 ; Crew: 4 ; Hull: 3 ; Carried Troop Points: 5.))

Say you manage to gather up five of these, and send them out on a raid. Well, you'll need troops as well. You'd need ~3 Cities to raise the full amount of troops for them, or you'd need to wait 3 MCRA turns. (Or you could do it with a Large City, and a regular City, or 5 large towns, etc.) 

And that gives you the following stats:

Guns	Crew	Hull	V.	Guns	Crew	Hull
20	45	15		15	40	20

RED is Fleet of 5 Class 5s

BLUE is 1 Large Fort

Red Fleet is still not beating the Blue fort in terms of Hull. So, you'd need more, larger ships, or more ships. Now let's calculate the cost of all this.

5 Class 5s... (420*5=2,100) 150 Troops: 1 Company and 2 Battalions... (220+80+80=380) 

Total: 2,480 Dbs. (Not counting upkeep)

1 Large Fort: 300 Dbs. (Not counting upkeep of 60 Dbs)

So let's say I invest 2,480 Dbs, months of building to make 5 class 5 ships, raise the troops, and attack this settlement with 1 Large fort.

By my calculations, using the data provided about how combat works, I would successfully raid the settlement around 60% of the time. 

Spoiler

So, this is assuming all battles are treated equally, (which they are not in game.) This weighs around 200 engagements of Hull v Gun, Gun v Hull, and Crew v Crew, with a D10 added. This does not factor in the extra damage that a good maneuver score can give, or what order the battles are done in. 

In game, as I understand it, a D6 is added to the maneuver score of the lowest ship, deciding the first battle for the favourable technique of the player. The next four battles are a bit of a mystery to me, as to how they are done. However, I do know that only 2 of the 5 battles can be crew engagements. 

So, not knowing the order of the battles, I simply run hundreds of D10 scores added to the raw data, and then calculate the percentage of victory for each side. 

This may be wrong, and if so, please let me know, as I would love to improve my data. 

Conclusions:

ASSUMING my data is correct, raiding is basically impossible at the moment. While I appreciate the Court's addition of the feature to the game, I feel it is impossible to really successfully raid a settlement with the current fort stats. 

That being said, this is all theoretical data, and I don't know how right my data is for battles. We will see, with the upcoming MCRA results, how right I am as to this. 

If anyone has any questions, please let me know. 

[Keymonus]

Probably raiding mechanics could be a little improved (but this is also the first time they are applied, so we will see), but I think that making raids aganist fortified settlements something difficult is historically right: in real life the equivalent large/royal forts (Gibraltar, Malta or Cartagena, for example) were almost impossible to take from sea, even with a whole fleet and a large army; pirate and corsairs raided mainly undefended and unfortified settlements, and still it required large forces (Morgan considered 10 ships and 500 men not enough to take L'Avana). Portobello was taken by land and by surprise, and still it was considered a remarkable deed.

The problem, according to me, is the "raidable" loot: in real life it was made up of "town bank", but also of goods imported/ready to be exported, private wealth of the inhabitants, alcool, weapons, dresses, sailcloth, but also ransoms for wealthy people or a kidnapped doctor for the ship… for this reason, I think that raids should be made somehow more profitable, but not too easy.

 

@Mesabi, by the way great job (as usual) with your simulation!

Edited September 3, 2018 by Keymonus

[Kwatchi]

The fort issue likely stems from the switch of rules mid-Era 1.  Originally you had one small fort, which you could upgrade in stages.  A colony would upgrade one fort stage per level increase, which could be used as either a fort size increase (with appropriate MOC) or additional small fort.  The problem ofc was the gaming data systems could not accommodate that rule set so things morphed into simple Fort license slots.  So forts were already overtuned and then their numbers exploded.

Tack on challenge micro-forts which were handed out very liberally & the poor financial return compared to trading, and raiding immediately became a dead-end.  Which is a pity because as the only succesful colony raider in BoBS history, it gave my brother and I a fun storyline, even if we only made 27dbs in total.

My take is that these new rules should be seen more as national army combat rules than for lightning attacks.  It was the now defunct SR-Prio conflict that brought to the forefront anyway and it was to be a true war before everyone meddled. True raid and pillaging will require some major changes to the economic and property system before it is made viable, and I doubt that is on the ‘front burner’.

 

 

Edited September 3, 2018 by Kwatchi