Purism

[Andy D]

20 hours ago, schraubedrin said:

I like to build my models in a way that anybody might go out, buy a number of currently sold LEGO Sets, and then build an exact copy of mine. And this includes changing my building style over the years.

This is something I really appreciate! I often see MOCs on ReBrickable that I like, only to look at the parts list to find that the designer used several "old, rare and/or out of production" parts. Unless one has a similar parts inventory to the builder the MOC may not be buildable. I have a fairly good collection of parts from the last 3 to 4 years or so, but I have very few (many times none) of the out of production or rare parts. So I find it difficult (maybe not possible) to build the MOC.

i also like it when some "special" parts are built from connectors, like the engine mount built in the 40th Anniversary Chassis.

As for color... I really don't care! For me, function beats color. I have my favorite colors and colors I would rather not use, but having everything in the same color doesn't matter to me.

Just MHO, YMMV

Andy D

Edited May 14, 2017 by Andy D

[Splat]

My goal when designing a Lego model is to build something unique, using the Lego system of parts.  Something that anyone else could have built, if they had thought of it first.  For me, this rules out the use of most 3rd-party pieces, and especially 3D printed pieces.

When looking at 3rd-party pieces I ask myself this:  "Does Lego make the same piece (just more expensive/less supply)?"  If so, I'm generally ok using the 3rd-party equivalent.  So I admit that I do use 3rd-party string and rubber bands.  I haven't done too much with pneumatics, but I would consider using 3rd-party tubing too.  I have also used an SBrick in models when I know that I am going to be using them outdoors (where IR range is really bad or virtually non-existent).  But, if IR worked better outdoors, I would continue to use the Lego IR Controllers/Receivers.

I also enjoy building (rather than designing) Lego models designed by other people, either as official sets designed by Lego designers or MOCs designed by other AFOLs.  In these cases my goal is to learn new techniques and new ways of using Lego pieces.  If I see a MOC by an AFOL that is using pieces that aren't created by The Lego Company (or direct equivalents such as string or rubber bands), then I become disinterested very quickly as it is no longer something that I could have designed myself, given the guidelines I have set myself.  I try not to speculate about what their thinking was when they chose to use non-Lego parts, but at the same time I'm thinking: "If they are going to use non-Lego parts, why didn't they just 3D print the whole thing?"

I also don't like to modify or paint any pieces.  This time I ask myself: "Can someone else build this model I designed using just Lego parts?"  If they cannot buy the parts directly from Lego without having to modify them, then I have failed my goal of staying within the Lego system of parts.  I understand that the range of parts changes each year as Lego release more parts, and some parts get older and harder to find, but this is also part of the challenge.  

As an example, I started designing a model several years ago, but had to stop as I moved to a different country and left my Lego collection behind.  I still think about that design occasionally and I do hope to get back to working on it someday, but now I would build it totally differently since new Lego parts are available, and in new colours.

As others have mentioned, I think there is a "spectrum of purity".  What I am willing to do to design and build a model can be (and from the posts in this thread, obviously is) quite different to what others are willing to do.  If it is a "spectrum of purity", with official Lego sets and MOCs that follow those same guidelines at one end, and 100% non-Lego models at the other end, in the middle somewhere there has to be a point at which you are no longer making a "Lego model with non-Lego parts", and you are now making a "non-Lego model with some Lego parts" (hopefully you can see the distinction there).

In the paragraphs above I have tried to use words such as "I" and "my" and "myself" as this is my opinion, and I understand that yours may vary.

I have set myself these goals and guidelines, and while I admit that I'm not 100% purist, I like to think that I am fairly close to a purist.

[mocbuild101]

I agree with a lot of what you said @Splat, I try to be purist but I will sometimes use 3rd party parts if I have to.

[shadow_elenter]

I AM A SINNER!

I cut up 2 motors to make an ELECTROMAGNET and a LASER, and that is sinful in the eyes of a lot of people here. TLG wil most likely never release a PF laser due to the obvious safety hazards and since the same can not be achieved with original parts I decided to allow myself to build one.

The electromagnet might be something TLG could release(not dangerous, cheap to produce and opens up a world of possibility's) , but as of yet the have not and since once again the same can not be achieved with original parts I decided to build one.

I must confess that I build  them mostly to see if I could (personal elektro-technical challenge)and I don't really like using them because of purist reasons.

 

I agree the challenge is to build with LEGO only, and if at all in any reasonable way possible one should use original parts. That said I use Sbrick's extensively since the IR system allows for a maximum of 8 channels to be controlled and I have a tendency to go FAR over those limits with my MOC's

You could get multiple mindstorms sets, but the cost of that would be insane in comparison to a few Sbricks not to mention bulky in your MOC's ,you would get benefit's like step motors and more programming options, but at a very high price.
Sbrick's offer up to 64 simultaneous control channels, speed control, longer range, sequences, sensors, are more compact (than 2 IR receivers) and you can hide them inside your MOC. so it outperforms LEGO IR in al ways... , why limit yourself to LEGO only?

So for me... If the same is in no (financially reasonable) way achievable with original parts, I allow myself to sin. I think it would be a shame to let cult-like-purism prevent me from using  Sbricks and building insane things like this: 

             The terraformer

Naturally anyone can do what they please, but If a purist solution is absolutely impossible I do encourage builders to break the LEGO-cult law If that is wat truly holds them back. 

[Andy D]

9 hours ago, Splat said:

I also enjoy building (rather than designing) Lego models designed by other people, either as official sets designed by Lego designers or MOCs designed by other AFOLs.  In these cases my goal is to learn new techniques and new ways of using Lego pieces.

This is what I enjoy most about LEGO... Learning new ways to use existing LEGO pieces to build new things. What amazes me is the number of times I find something in a LEGO set or MOC that just leaves me thinking "what?" I really enjoy those moments of LEGO amazement of what can be built using commonly available LEGO pieces.

I am often more amazed by some of the sub-assemblies than by the final model, I also even tend to keep some sub-assemblies longer than I keep a completed model.

Andy D

Edited May 16, 2017 by Andy D

[JJ2]

I'm sure I'm a well known non-Purist since I extensively use non-Lego parts in my MOC's, but building with purist rules is fun also. I have actually am starting to miss just using Lego and my next few MOC's will most likely not have any 3rd party parts in them.

[Kelkschiz]

Very interesting topic with many interesting opinions.

Like @Attika, I consider myself a pragmatist where LEGO is concerned. For me LEGO is primarily a tool to express my creativity. As such it is an awesome tool, but it also leaves somethings to be desired sometimes. I am in two minds about this fact. On the one hand I detest 'harming' LEGO pieces. On the other hand, if you have a need for a part that TLG does not provide, and it is essential to have that part, then it is acceptable to fabricate that part.

For example: two years back I build a LEGO sailboat. Now TLG doesn't make sails that are actually usable. Nor a remote control system that has the range to work outdoors on a lake. And then there is the rigging rope, which you want strong nylon for... So in this case you can either: A, be a purist and not build a sailboat (or a piss poor one). Or B, make use of some third party items and build a mostly LEGO sailboat.

Personally I think not making the 'sailboat' is the wrong choice, at least for me. The bottom line is that LEGO should enable you to express your creativity, not limit it. However if the non-LEGO parts are not essential and the person is just taking the easy way out then I would agree that that makes the creation less interesting and beautiful.

But that is my personal opinion. I will never ever try to decide for someone else where that line between acceptable and unacceptable should be. Because it is a personal choice and it should be a personal choice. I have noticed that that line has shifted for me in recent years to being more tolerant of 3^rd party parts. Especially parts for which there is a big demand which TLG seemingly ignores. An example would be the Sbrick, Buwizz and other such electrical systems. I also follow what more enterprising spirits do with interest, like: @efferman. @Attika, @MajorAlvega and others. I like to know what is going on and decide for myself what I find acceptable.

In general I am happy that we don't see a lot of discussion about what is and isn't acceptable on this forum. I mean, a topic like this is great because it isn't directed at anyone in particular (for the most part), but I would not like to see people getting lots of negative feedback on their MOCs for the choices they made in this regard.

Edited May 16, 2017 by Kelkschiz

[Immo]

I'm a purist. First and foremost "thing" with Lego for me is the challenge. Overcoming limitations and obstacles. I accept changes in official Lego line, new parts and so, but I let them "come at their own, natural pace", so to say. But then again, sometimes you can't stop progress. So, the only non-Lego entity I'd be cool with using would be a custom power-related stuff like sBrick or BuWizz (and perhaps some other PF extensions for lights or sounds).
I'm also fine with all the usual stuff purists are OK with - rubber bands (but ONLY used for shock absorption or as a means of transmission; can't get over using them as a way to increase thread link friction, also aesthetically), string cords and custom stickers. I'm also OK with using almost semi-legal methods of building like putting round system 1x3 bricks or minifig heads on pins with friction (did that when made a shifter for my hot rod). I'd possibly accept custom copies of capes/cloths (by copies, I mean reproduced shapes, but personalised colour/pattern) some custom tyres, but only when dealing with RC or a scaled model. 3D printed parts, painting/chroming and part modifications? Nope.

Sometimes I'm tempted to test some custom electronic solutions that require modifying parts (like shadow_elenter's electromagnet), but only if they look super-clean and legit (like aforementioned electromagnet).
 

Edited May 17, 2017 by Immo

[mocbuild101]

14 hours ago, Immo said:

Sometimes I'm tempted to test some custom electronic solutions that require modifying parts (like shadow_elenter's electromagnet), but only if they look super-clean and legit (like aforementioned electromagnet).

Agreed, one of the projects I have at the moment is making a custom battery box out of an old corroded 9V battery box and a burnt out PF receiver, I'm just having problems fitting a 3s lipo in a 4x8 space.

[Dennis Bosman]

I tried to solely use LEGO parts for my models many years ago but to get everything right is hardly possible. I'm using the SBricks and will turn into Brickstuff lighting systems as well as I see great benefits compared to the genuine LEGO one. My goal is to create lifelike models and when it comes to adding non-LEGO stuff I think that legitimate as far as it's not going to be over the top. Another great feature is adding chrome or pearl chrome pieces to your models. LEGO has some, but far too less.

As soon as you stick to pure LEGO bricks that's up to you but in my opinion you can make your models even better by adding some non-existing (LEGO) parts.

[mocbuild101]

That's another good way to put it, there is nothing stopping you making models out of 100% original Lego parts, adding non-lego parts can make models much better.

[allanp]

Actually I have removed the internal gearing from an XL motor (by removing the outer ring and gluing the planet gears solid) so now I have an ungeared XL to play with. I've also put water in pneumatics to make them hydraulic. Should that be on sariels deadly sin list?!

 

Edited May 18, 2017 by allanp

[jorgeopesi]

Purism for me is the whole world building with the same pieces so the difference between MOCs only depends on the person, so although I recognize the value of all MOCs I only take as a reference that of those who use only Lego parts, those are my goal and my inspiration. Is a nice thread to read full of respect and points of view  .

[mocbuild101]

On 19/05/2017 at 0:45 AM, allanp said:

Actually I have removed the internal gearing from an XL motor (by removing the outer ring and gluing the planet gears solid) so now I have an ungeared XL to play with. I've also put water in pneumatics to make them hydraulic. Should that be on sariels deadly sin list?!

 

Well I wouldn't do it, but making pneumatic into hydraulic was in @Sariel's book...

[Tamas Juhasz]

I was waiting for a long time to a discussion, like this. Interesting theme, and we have as much opinions and point of view, as many of us are here. Basically, I can say, I agree with the first post of Erik, Lego MOCing should be done with Lego. I consider myself as purist, as possible to reach my goals with Lego designs. However, I have some exceptions, with justifications, why I use them:

1. Custom stickers: to get the small details on vehicles, as most of us do, sometimes a sticker is very important, eg. in a famous racing car

2. Custom strings and rubber bands: I mostly use them because of economical reasons, they can be replaced in 99% of my models with original Lego ones

3. Custom pneumatic tubes: until the inner and outer diameters, the hardness and color are the same (only minor shade differences can be observed), I don't even consider these non-Lego parts. When you really can't see the difference, then it can be considered as Lego. Of course, the reason why I use these tubes, is the price. I use only official lengths.

4. BuWizz: it's the only custom control system, I'd currently use (I'll buy soon), because there are absolutely no Lego alternatives for high performance. Even RC system doesn't came close when we see the given power/weight ratio. Increased fun factor is a great motivation to allow BuWIzz for your MOCs. Another reason to use the proper remote controlling range. All these in one unit. Some of my models will contain the BuWizz, but I'll try to solve even most of my high performance needs with 100% Lego. Let's say, I use it for some experiments. And, most important over all: cars with BuWizz can't be compared with full Lego cars in power, speed, performance. When someone use it, I think it's only fair to use when he/she indicates (eg. in the title of the video) that the car is powered by custom non-Lego unit. I'll do. I still don't (and won't) consider full PF cars 'lame' because of no BuWizz or SBrick. That's the level what you can reach with Lego in most of the cases. In their category (pure Lego) they can give as awesome performance, as eg. BuWizz in custom category.

5. Custom tyres: the last on my list, I use them to get acceptable traction on terrain with my trial trucks. It's a similar case to BuWizz, there is no Lego alternative to replace them in large scale (94,3 or higher), all of big Lego tyres have bad, hard plastic materials, except PP wheel (which I use often, but sometimes doesn't fits to a model, and very heavy). But, when I can use Lego tyres, I prefer them rather than 3rd party ones. It depends also on the actual rules of trial competitions: when custom tyres are allowed (by poll), then you will be in disadvantage, when you don't use them. Very rarely I use them for scale models (I mean not for TT), when none of the Lego tyres are even close to the needed form and size.
 

These are all non-purists solutions I use. I don't consider taking apart Lego assembled pieces (like the springs in the mini 8865 MOC) and use their elements individually as a custom or even "gray area" solution. These are all made by TLC, can be found in sets, and if you are enough skilled, you can take them apart without damage. For example, I use a lot of Lego rim and tyre combination, some of them stresses the tyre, but at least it's full Lego. Beside this, I use the springs from disassembled shock absorbers, as parts individually. The reason for this are my building themes, I often build compact MOCs which requires small springs, and you can build sometimes much more interesting setups with only the metal spring part.

To sum up, my sins are the custom tyres and the (planned) BuWizz use. I totally understand and respect non-purist builders, as long, as they indicate somewhere, the MOC contains custom or modded parts (of course, except of small things, eg. strings, rubber bands, etc). I respect also totally purist builders, who even don't use techniques which stresses some elements (likeTLC's official solutions to avoid). Basically, I really try to solve anything with 100% Lego, custom solutions are the last options for me. I totally agree with that statement that Lego is all about the achievement and challange with building pre-made, limited selection (both in form an color) of pieces. This is the essence, I think. If we became "lazy", and our first thought is to solve a problem (challenge?) in a MOC with custom 3D printed part, some from the essence of Lego designing/building will be lost. But I understand even people, who use glue, cut their Lego, to create the wanted form, model. That's also modelling, can be done professional too, but in traditional sense, definitely not Lego MOCing. IMHO.

 

Edited May 28, 2017 by Tamas Juhasz

[mocbuild101]

5 minutes ago, Tamas Juhasz said:

1. Custom stickers:

2. Custom strings and rubber bands:

3. Custom pneumatic tubes:

4. BuWizz:

5. Custom tyres:

Except for the BuWizz, I have used all of these non-purist solutions in my builds, and I think that it's not that bad to use them.

By the way, where do you get your custom pneumatic tubes from?  

[Tamas Juhasz]

My tubes are from a local store (called 'Bondex') in Budapest, Hungary, they sell many silicon products. They have no english website.

[mocbuild101]

11 hours ago, Tamas Juhasz said:

My tubes are from a local store (called 'Bondex') in Budapest, Hungary, they sell many silicon products. They have no english website.

Oh... Well I guess I will just stick with Lego tubes.

[jam8280]

I try to be pure, I really do. But I build functional models -- mostly Technic gizmos and spinning tops -- and the laws of physics and purism don't always mix.

I use third-party silicone pneumatic tubing when LEGO tubing is too stiff. I use the string and the elastics that make engineering sense, LEGO or otherwise. I use parts of parts when I've exhausted all other approaches. I don't hesitate to cut cross-axles to length. I use SBricks for remote control vehicles and will never go back to the deeply flawed PF IR system for that purpose.

I also cut the ends off round-tipped 4L antennas to use as high-performance tips in my LEGO tops.

In my working LEGO powerboats, I use third-party props made for hobby-shop RC boats, because LEGO props are strictly ornamental and waste nearly all the mechanical power delivered to them by the rest of the propulsion system. Heck, I even cut the bushes off 3L bush-pins when I need a bush color (e.g. black or blue) that I can't get for a reasonable price any other way.

I think of this as "selective impurism", I do it without apology, and I consider myself no less a LEGO enthusiast for it. Purism is fine for those who enjoy building that way, and I certainly don't fault them for it. But purism limits what I can do with LEGO. Often one small deviation can make the difference between a model that really performs and one that only vaguely suggests what it might be meant to do.

There's no "should" here. We build to have fun, not religion.

Edited August 15, 2017 by jam8280

[jorgeopesi]

I think build with Technic is about try to represent real functions, I want the better performance that I can get for the maximum in general at our scales we have RC metal models. I have cutted parts but just to get real pieces I hadn't got yet, 11L axles or 3L axles without stud for example, I didn't search performance just keep on building while they were coming.

[jam8280]

On ‎5‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 10:33 PM, mocbuild101 said:

Oh... Well I guess I will just stick with Lego tubes.

I got my silicone tubing on Amazon. It's much more flexible than LEGO tubing but just as air-tight at valve and cylinder fittings. It's also much less expensive.

[nychase]

So I'm gonna be that guy and dredge up an old topic for a second.   

First, to clear this debate without pictures... unless you force me.....I can tell you for an absolute and unequivocal fact that set 8674 had light bluish grey insides to the wheel barrels despite having the exact same metallic silver outers that match the other 4 sets that had theses wheels.   All of those other sets wheels are fully metallic silver.   

 

Second, that's what dropped me here.   I'm in the process of removing paint from some parts that I have that had been painted.    In my case it was a spray paint but a 24 hour soak in 91% rubbing alcohol and the paint just comes right off. 

Now, even though I hate to admit it....I want to repaint some parts.   Years ago I had sent my collection of RoscoPC F1 models to blakbird when we were going to release instructions for them (I lived in NYC at the time and didn't have the room to build them).  When he built them he painted the front wheels on a few of the models that were supposed to match the large metallic silver wheels that rosco uses on the back of every model.   While it was a good paint job....it simply doesn't match.  

Does anyone know where I can get some one to perfectly paint match these wheels so the match the rears?   Did any of the (now banned) lego chrome shops do the metallic colors?   Where are they now?

 

 

 

[dr_spock]

Maybe an auto body repair shop can help with paint colour matching?

[Lira_Bricks]

Funny that the same person who made

also made this topic.

Anyway, sometimes you have no choice since certain parts existed in the past, but not anymore.

I have heard that flexcable* was really brittle and broke if they had been in the sun for to long, and people had to resort to other material, like guitar snares, to get their build working again.

 

Cutting tubes is legal as it had to be done in 8272. But I really do not like builds that make tubes really short to make all kinds of weird connections.

So I do not mind certain "illegal" builds, and I dislike certain "legal" builds.

 

I see the same discussion in pixelart fora, where everyone has different rules for what exactly is "real" pixelart.

 

*: https://www.bricklink.com/v2/catalog/catalogitem.page?P=bb0008c05L&idColor=9#T=C&C=9

[jovel]

For the people who consider themself as a 100% purist:

Do you use app's that are not official created by lego to control Powered up / Mindstorms?