"Castle lines never die" or "what made me change my mind and believe in new exciting castle lines".

[Murrig Icehammer]

12 hours ago, BrickJagger said:

I disagree. Fantasy Era seems to have sold well, hence the three year run, and from what I can see it still seems to be quite popular even eight years after its discontinuation. Nexo looks like it is going to run for the same length.

Also, wasn't Fantasy Era supposed to go longer than three years? From what I've pieced together by reading through old rumor threads it looks like there was a large wave (possibly containing Elves) was planned for 2009, but it seems to have been cut short right as it was announced that a Hobbit film would be coming soon. Kingdoms acted as a filler line to create space between the very similar themes that were FE and LOTR/TH.

Yeah, i read the same back then and i think it is a shame they didn't continue it through 2009-10 at least. I have no numbers or other information about the sales profitability of fantasy era line, so i can't say anything about it. But some executive must have come to the opinion that stopping (fantasy) castle line in favour of something like Nexo Knights would be a good idea. Please don't get a wrong impression, i still LOVE fantasy era Castle and vikings, i just try to get behind the logic of this.

 

22 minutes ago, Niku said:

Spoiler

 

This is not mine, but a simple fan rendition I saw, with the existing factions, could demonstrate the potential castle could have with kids with the proper marketing and also appeal to adults.

A larger image is available on my flikr...

The Lore:

Black Falcons: Lawful Neutral - Conservative mercenary kingdom, easily defended by mountain ranges and fortifications. Ruled by a citidel on the outcropping of land known as 'The Iron Fist'. Allows the free travel of merchants but unconcerned with the affairs of others unless there is a good profit involved.

Bull Knights: Chaotic Neutral - Barbarian men of the wild North East, loosely organised under a king. Enjoy a good raid, peace with them is fragile at best. Wild forests and mountains, rolling hills and a stoney coast line.

Crown Lands: Lawful Good - The largest Kingdom, I put the crownies in the centre (they represent the house of the King to me). The 3 Lion Knight factions have sworn fealty to them. There exists a certain degree of corruption within their political system and certain figures may not always have the peoples interests at heart... The kingdom boasts the most fertile lands in the realm and is a mixture of mountains, lakes, woods, pleasant countryside and riverlands.

Dragon Knights: Chaotic Good - Free folk that live in the cold north, excellent warriors but unable to compete with the political schemings of the Royal Kingdoms. Geography is a mixture of Mountains, pine forests, rivers and farmland to the south (Skyrim anyone?)

Dragon Masters: Neutral Lawful/Order - A sort of mercantile and arcane faction, I'm currently building a medieval MOC with an Eastern/exotic feel and they make great city guards with their elaborate helmets and mustaches aplenty. So they've been given a desert kingdom.

Dwarves: Neutral Good - The dwarven kingdom lies in a heart of a mountain range where they are able to explore underground without too much trouble from the surface world. Enjoy trade with most non-evil factions.

Elves: True Neutral - Occupy a large region of woodland inbetween the Lion and Dragon Knight kingdoms. Enjoy good relations with the Dragon Knights as they are viewed as less industrialised and closer to nature than the Crown Kingdoms.

Forestmen: Chaotic Good, made up of exiles and opponents of the Monarchy who fight injustice and corruption. Based in the Kings Woods to the west of the Capital.

Orcs: Chatic Evil, a loose confederation of tribes that occupte the Horde Lands to the North East.

Undead: Neutral Evil, A dead city on the edge of a great salt lake. Rulers tolerate a couple of slaver/piracy ports to the north in return for heavy tribute.

Vampire Bat faction: Lawful Evil : A land of mostly black volcanic desert and mountains, ruled from a Dark Citidel atop a solitary peak on the peninsular. Includes the Spider Jungle to the south and a mercantile port ruled by Dark Mages.

Vikings: Chaotic Neutral, launch raids over the entire west coast of the mainland from their ports on the Dagger Isles.

 

 

Really amazing! It really shows that with a little bit of imagination the already existing castle lines could get combined and also elevated to a new level.

Now imagine TLG would start a new semi fantasy Castle theme introducing one big main faction at the beginning. Each year they could expand that established world with another small faction, but keep producing new sets for the original faction too. The sets could consist of the usual military/knightly themes, but also civilian and even some supernatural/fantasy elements. Every few years they could add a additional big faction to that world. Similar like they did with the fantasy line back then. The advantage for TLG would be that all sets would keep being relevant over years, there could even be a TV series, books and so on.

The tone of that world would be radically different than the over the top Nexo Knights, the Lego Movie or even ninjago, which in turn would also be a much higher risk. Its success would highly depend on the quality of the TV series/Movies and the general presentation. It could even have a educational angle of some sort about history and living in such a world.

But since over the top and chaotic "funny" themes are more popular (and less risky), i see little hope for even something remotely like this becoming real.

[gedren_y]

I thought it was largely understood that Fantasy Era was discontinued, and its future development was repurposed, when TLG gained the LOTR license.

If Lego actually restarts a more traditional Castle theme after Nexo Knights ends its run, then I think a new set of heraldries are warranted. Nods to the old themes would certainly help maintain existing interest, but they need not retread that same ground. There are other heraldries and symbolism that can be used, given Lego's current capacity.

The old shields, prints, and helmets could be incorporated into the history of a new group, as background parts. Relics to be preserved, and learned from, but not limiting the potential of change. Some that got less time, or poor development before, could be reprised, with necessary improvements.

Attendant media to help set a narrative, but more like a choose your own adventure game. The capacity to choose a side, and build from there. That kind of thing would take a concerted effort, but is doable if TLG sets the needed resources behind it.

[x105Black]

8 hours ago, MAB said:

I don't think that is true. I think it is that they are not currently interested in (Classic) Castle as a theme.

They have released Castle sets in the near past, and they are still producing Castle type figures in the CMF ranges. But they cannot do everything all the time. It makes no sense to have Castle and Nexo Knights available at the same time, as they would compete for sales. So traditional Castle gets put on hiatus for a while, while NK runs it course. That doesn't mean the traditional Castle theme is of no interest to LEGO.

I'd prefer that it remains on hiatus a bit longer and that they do other historical themes (which again would compete for sales) - Romans, Egyptians, Greeks, Vikings, Ancient Chinese, etc. Even there, just battle packs without regular sets would be great. If they stick four or five Roman soldiers in a battle pack, I'd pay £12 for it. I don't know how well they'd sell to the general population though.

I think Castle and Nexo Knights could exist simultaneously, as they are completely different.  I'm not sure Space could exist along with Nexo Knights, I find those themes to be much more similar.  That said, I don't expect them to do either Space or Castle as long as Nexo Knights is around, because of how LEGO sees these themes internally.  And I think I'm right in that LEGO is more interested in bringing kids in and getting their money than they are about producing sets that appeal to people who enjoy medieval fantasy.

4 hours ago, gedren_y said:

Part of the problem is that despite the growing AFOL community, Lego is still considered a children's toy, not an art medium. As such there is an assumption that children will age out of their interest in Lego, and that the company needs to consistently attract the interest more young children to maintain their success.

Part of that is true, most of us have a 'dark age', but that could be somewhat mitigated if themes that are popular could grow with their fan base instead of trying to attract a new, younger fan base. This is what I believe has lead to the whacky themes that get the Big Bang treatment. Major media campaigns that reinforce the idea that Lego just is for children.

Lego likes to promote the idea of creative building play, but their major media money goes toward themes that use specific builds for their characters to use. When the set is built, that is what the character uses, and there is little to no showing the set being rebuilt as something else. That is why I keep pushing for the idea of alternate builds, because when you show children other possibilities that helps spark their own ideas, which in turn helps develop independent thinking skills.

Some of The Lego Movie sets were developed in this vein, but because the theme was attached to a movie it was inherently limited in its existence. Dimensions offers little builds that have alternate builds, but you have to actually play the game to get the instructions. This is largely aimed at older consumers who are interested in video game play, not constructive building. It misses the point.

All this proves that TLG as a company has little interest in the adult market's interests. People will point to Ideas, Expert, and Creator sets, but look at how little we really get from those things. The internal development seems quite low, especially when you consider that there is little to no new parts development attached to those themes. Ideas is actually outsourcing the initial creative design process. Yes, it allows us to have input, but it is also a way for the company to avoid some expenditure on market research. Also the amount of promotion is so low that many adults do not even know that they exist. We AFOLs like to think of ourselves as a large community, but think about how many people in our daily working lives who's only thought of Lego is as a children's toy. This attitude is changing, largely due to licensed themes, but the process is slow.

I hope TLG gets better at addressing the wants of its existing adult fan base, but understand that the company needs to be successful. Especially when you consider that they now have actual competitors in today's market, which didn't really exist to such an extent in the 80's and 90's.

I agree.  It would be nice if LEGO created more products to cater to the AFOL fanbase beyond $200 - $500 sets.  We do exist, and while our numbers may be small in comparison to their child fanbase, we do still represent a large number of people.

2 hours ago, Niku said:

This is not mine, but a simple fan rendition I saw, with the existing factions, could demonstrate the potential castle could have with kids with the proper marketing and also appeal to adults...

This is great, and I have a similar view of the factions over the years.

The Wolfpack are pictured, but there is no mention of them.  There are some factions that are newer from the CMF series that could help spice this up, like the Frightening Knight's Bear faction, Evil Knight's Hog faction, Evil Dwarf's Dragon faction (at least, that's what BrickLink calls that image), and more.  I'd assume that the Forest Maiden's Tree faction would pair with the Forestmen under the Stag heraldry.  I would personally combine the Forestmen and Elves under the Stag heraldry.  And I would use the Elf Girl's Flower heraldry as either an elite royal guard for the Elves, or as a different kingdom.  Perhaps the Stag heraldry represents Wood Elves, but the Flower represents High Elves.  There are some other factions as well, like the Unicorns and the original 1978 factions, and other versions of factions, like the recent black and red Dragons, or the Black Knights with the blue Dragon heraldry, that could flesh out the story even more.

Anyways, the concept is wonderful, and I would love to see how LEGO would put all of these factions together in a world, while perhaps adding more new factions over time.

28 minutes ago, gedren_y said:

I thought it was largely understood that Fantasy Era was discontinued, and its future development was repurposed, when TLG gained the LOTR license.

If Lego actually restarts a more traditional Castle theme after Nexo Knights ends its run, then I think a new set of heraldries are warranted. Nods to the old themes would certainly help maintain existing interest, but they need not retread that same ground. There are other heraldries and symbolism that can be used, given Lego's current capacity.

The old shields, prints, and helmets could be incorporated into the history of a new group, as background parts. Relics to be preserved, and learned from, but not limiting the potential of change. Some that got less time, or poor development before, could be reprised, with necessary improvements.

Attendant media to help set a narrative, but more like a choose your own adventure game. The capacity to choose a side, and build from there. That kind of thing would take a concerted effort, but is doable if TLG sets the needed resources behind it.

I can see where you are coming from with that view, and I largely agree, but I would really like to see updates to bring the classic factions into the modern era of detail that we enjoy in the CMF series.  There has been an updated Forestmen in the CMF series, and there was a revamped Black Falcon knight not too long ago (although they gave him a dark green feather rather than dark blue).  I'd love to see all of the old classic factions get this treatment.

But yes, more new factions would be fantastic.  I'd love to see a Griffin faction, personally.

Unfortunately, none of this will happen if LEGO refuses to produce a medieval fantasy styled Castle theme.

[Rob1321]

I don't mind the lack of castle sets but I do mind the lack of figures and accessories. Castles and structures can be built but it's rather difficult to outfit your soldiers using LEGO accessories. I would love if they made castle and figure accessories to at least be able to build up a few different factions. 

[SerenityInFire]

I don't think castle and Nexo Knights would exist simultaneously as Lego considers Nexo a castle theme.

EDIT: Just so I don't double post, I think it would be cool if Lego expanded the current palette of medieval weaponry.  I'd love to see more variations on swords, axes and maces.  I would love to see what an official Lego flanged mace looked like.

Edited June 16, 2017 by SerenityInFire

[x105Black]

8 hours ago, Rob1321 said:

I don't mind the lack of castle sets but I do mind the lack of figures and accessories. Castles and structures can be built but it's rather difficult to outfit your soldiers using LEGO accessories. I would love if they made castle and figure accessories to at least be able to build up a few different factions. 

As much as I would love to see a full-fledged theme, I'm still rather partial to the idea of minifigure packs and possibly brick boxes with relevant colors and pieces (like windows and wagon wheels).

4 hours ago, SerenityInFire said:

I don't think castle and Nexo Knights would exist simultaneously as Lego considers Nexo a castle theme.

EDIT: Just so I don't double post, I think it would be cool if Lego expanded the current palette of medieval weaponry.  I'd love to see more variations on swords, axes and maces.  I would love to see what an official Lego flanged mace looked like.

I agree, LEGO's in house concept for Castle this time was to try something new, stir things up, and take a calculated risk, and I'm sure there are many valid demographics to back up that decision, both before making it and after looking at sales figures.  I'm glad they did, in some ways.  I like to see them trying new things, and many Castle fans were wanting to see something different after the last few iterations.  It actually fed into my Castle fandom in some ways, because the less I saw it, the more I wanted it back on the shelves.  I'm not a fan of their Nexo Knights theme, but there are things to appreciate.  I look forward to whatever replaces it, even if it is zanier than Nexo Knights, because it might still be the source of the types of pieces I want.

I'd love to see more weapons.  I'm happy to see the new machete piece in the new City sets, I will be making use of that.

[MAB]

14 hours ago, x105Black said:

I think Castle and Nexo Knights could exist simultaneously, as they are completely different.  I'm not sure Space could exist along with Nexo Knights, I find those themes to be much more similar.  That said, I don't expect them to do either Space or Castle as long as Nexo Knights is around, because of how LEGO sees these themes internally.  And I think I'm right in that LEGO is more interested in bringing kids in and getting their money than they are about producing sets that appeal to people who enjoy medieval fantasy.

 

1

I'm sure most AFOLs think the same too. But the important people are the kids and their parents buying the stuff. I reckon a normal adult picking up Jestro's Lair or the Fortrex would see this as a fantasy castle type set. Futurstic fantasy castle,  but still fantasy castle.

 

14 hours ago, x105Black said:

I can see where you are coming from with that view, and I largely agree, but I would really like to see updates to bring the classic factions into the modern era of detail that we enjoy in the CMF series.  There has been an updated Forestmen in the CMF series, and there was a revamped Black Falcon knight not too long ago (although they gave him a dark green feather rather than dark blue).  I'd love to see all of the old classic factions get this treatment.
 

 

The CMF line has been good to us for new factions, especially if you are willing to mix and match parts. Forestman from S1 (although that might be too early for many), the elf, dwarf (x2), viking (plus the woman), warrior woman, evil knight, frightening knight, conquistador, rogue, hun, highlander, king, queen, princess, etc. and that is without the more historical type figures from Egypt, Rome and Greece.  It is just a case of collecting enough of them then switching the heads and maybe headgear where appropriate for a bit of variation.

[Nabii]

Sorry if I came over bitter. I'm still a bit annoyed by his forum deciding that a basket with a witch under a dragon, or Lord of the Rings ARE historic/castle sets and yet what is essentially a giant siege engine (the Fortrex), or a magical flying sword (the top of the Rumble Blade) is not. But that is a long dead argument that I lost!

I wish I could show more of what LEGO did in development of the theme, I have shown a couple of early concept art images at fan events, I will try to put them online (when I find the memory stick). I'll post a link here when I do.

Of course one day traditional Space and Castle themes will return, never give up hope, but if any theme 'type' suffers a perceived 'failure' or even just does 'okay', there is a large chance there will be a break for a while.

Two things i would like to mention though. One, I see it said in many places that because the adult community is growing that more and more sets will/should be developed for them. Be careful it makes you sound like train/monorail fans from ten years ago :D! More importantly realise that the number of kids getting LEGO is growing at around the same rate, so as a percentage of purchasers you are still only around the same as ten years ago (it is a little hard to measure because it relies on people telling the truth on if they are buying sets for themselves). Not that this couldn't change the number of sets for AFOLs, just that the growth of AFOL communities should be kept in context.

The second thing is often overlooked by adult fans, particularly here in the historic forum: the age marking on boxes. If a line is a 4/5+ line like our last traditional castle theme, or our last pirate theme then it is a recruitment theme for kids who are very young and getting their first real LEGO brick sets. They are going to be very simplified compared to a 7+ theme, there is a huge difference in abilities for kids of these ages (as great as from 2 to 5) and adult fans will generally not be happy with these sets. (I personally get frustrated designing 5+ as the restrictions drive me nuts). Consider the difference in building between the last large traditional castle and the Nexo Knights Knighton Castle I just designed. The things i was able to do for an 9+ set (for a 7+ age appeal target) are so much more complex then the stuff Bjarke Madsen could do in the 7946 King's Castle at 7+ (for a 4/5+ appeal target). If you are going to be lobbying for a return to castle (or any historic theme) and you want it to have some building complexity and depth then consider the age range too!

[MAB]

1 hour ago, Nabii said:

I wish I could show more of what LEGO did in development of the theme, I have shown a couple of early concept art images at fan events, I will try to put them online (when I find the memory stick). I'll post a link here when I do.
 

1

That would be great if you can. I downloaded and printed some of the Chima concept art and my kids loved having those for their lego area. Now they are more into NK than Chima, so an update in their wall art would be good.

 

 

[gedren_y]

I get where @Nabii is coming from about his intent and restrictions. The Nexo Knights sets, for what they are, are well designed. For the target consumer, they are good. I fully understand that I am not the target consumer.

The issue some have is that the percentage of pieces that can be repurposed for more traditional Castle and fantasy builds is quite low across the theme. The villains sets have greater utility, and I'm sure a number of us have bought them.

The set sited was, I believe, from Fright Knights. While it was whacky, and not in any way historic, the parts were easily repurposed. Even that dragon mold was something usable. I know plenty of AFOLs who still use the Fright Knights heraldry and fig parts.

I am glad that actual Lego designers are willing to come here, address our concerns, and share some of their internal development processes. Thank you, @Nabii.

[Digger of Bricks]

3 hours ago, Nabii said:

I wish I could show more of what LEGO did in development of the theme, I have shown a couple of early concept art images at fan events, I will try to put them online (when I find the memory stick). I'll post a link here when I do.
----------------
Two things i would like to mention though. One, I see it said in many places that because the adult community is growing that more and more sets will/should be developed for them. Be careful it makes you sound like train/monorail fans from ten years ago :D! More importantly realise that the number of kids getting LEGO is growing at around the same rate, so as a percentage of purchasers you are still only around the same as ten years ago (it is a little hard to measure because it relies on people telling the truth on if they are buying sets for themselves). Not that this couldn't change the number of sets for AFOLs, just that the growth of AFOL communities should be kept in context.

I'd love to see the concept art, along with details regarding the many inspirations behind the theme!

Regarding what you said about more sets being made in mind for adults, I think that whatever products are made for an older age range should stay within a kid friendly context and avoid being something that would be of no interest to Lego's core target customer base (6 to 11 year olds). Perhaps these concerns of mine are unfounded, but I feel that if Lego increased their focus on specifically adult targeted products, that some people would demand or expect Lego to acquire or make more products based upon questionable IPs or material that would not be at all suitable for Lego's core audience. Lego probably gets enough demand or harassment currently for such products, but I'm just concerned that this would uptick if Lego were to cater to specifically fan interests irrespective to their core audience.

[SirBlake]

2 hours ago, Digger of Bricks said:

Perhaps these concerns of mine are unfounded, but I feel that if Lego increased their focus on specifically adult targeted products, that some people would demand or expect Lego to acquire or make more products based upon questionable IPs or material that would not be at all suitable for Lego's core audience. Lego probably gets enough demand or harassment currently for such products, but I'm just concerned that this would uptick if Lego were to cater to specifically fan interests irrespective to their core audience.

Forgive me, but I do think these concerns are unfounded. For the most part (there are always going to be unreasonable people) everyone understands that TLG has a line that they will not cross, so I don't think you have anything to worry about there. Any sets that they release that are more adult focused a realized either through their size, complexity, or subject matter that is acceptable for kids, but perhaps it may not appeal to them as much. To put it another way, I think we can all agree that we're not going to be seeing Game of Thrones Lego, ever. And that's just fine.

@Nabii, Glad you're still in this thread. Your thoughts are valued. I see where you're coming from as far as age range and all of the factors that play into that, from build complexity to the level of fun and freedom designers get with older age products. That said, I do think that perfectly good Castle can be made for the younger ranges that can still appeal to all ages. For example, 2013 Castle could have been a big hit here based on the fact that the builds were fine, it just needed different heraldry. Kingdoms is a good example of this. But I suppose that is a separate and long-dead conversation that we don't need to rehash.

I am curious about one thing that you've mentioned more than once: that we should be careful how we sound to the designers. For myself, and I think the majority of us, nobody wants to come off as a whiner or complainer, but we are passionate and we are honest. I'm sure that can be annoying to someone in your position, but at the same time, I think this feedback should be valued. While we may be a vocal minority, that doesn't mean we're spoiled brats. At the end of the day, we are consumers of a product we love, and TLG is fortunate enough to have good access to their consumer in the form of this and other forums. Telling a company what we would like to see is different than complaining for the sake of complaining. It's not always going to be sunshine and rainbows, and simply put, we have a right to vent our frustrations and I would hope that you and other Lego decision makers would respect that.

[x105Black]

8 hours ago, Nabii said:

Sorry if I came over bitter. I'm still a bit annoyed by his forum deciding that a basket with a witch under a dragon, or Lord of the Rings ARE historic/castle sets and yet what is essentially a giant siege engine (the Fortrex), or a magical flying sword (the top of the Rumble Blade) is not. But that is a long dead argument that I lost!

I wish I could show more of what LEGO did in development of the theme, I have shown a couple of early concept art images at fan events, I will try to put them online (when I find the memory stick). I'll post a link here when I do.

Of course one day traditional Space and Castle themes will return, never give up hope, but if any theme 'type' suffers a perceived 'failure' or even just does 'okay', there is a large chance there will be a break for a while.

Two things i would like to mention though. One, I see it said in many places that because the adult community is growing that more and more sets will/should be developed for them. Be careful it makes you sound like train/monorail fans from ten years ago :D! More importantly realise that the number of kids getting LEGO is growing at around the same rate, so as a percentage of purchasers you are still only around the same as ten years ago (it is a little hard to measure because it relies on people telling the truth on if they are buying sets for themselves). Not that this couldn't change the number of sets for AFOLs, just that the growth of AFOL communities should be kept in context.

The second thing is often overlooked by adult fans, particularly here in the historic forum: the age marking on boxes. If a line is a 4/5+ line like our last traditional castle theme, or our last pirate theme then it is a recruitment theme for kids who are very young and getting their first real LEGO brick sets. They are going to be very simplified compared to a 7+ theme, there is a huge difference in abilities for kids of these ages (as great as from 2 to 5) and adult fans will generally not be happy with these sets. (I personally get frustrated designing 5+ as the restrictions drive me nuts). Consider the difference in building between the last large traditional castle and the Nexo Knights Knighton Castle I just designed. The things i was able to do for an 9+ set (for a 7+ age appeal target) are so much more complex then the stuff Bjarke Madsen could do in the 7946 King's Castle at 7+ (for a 4/5+ appeal target). If you are going to be lobbying for a return to castle (or any historic theme) and you want it to have some building complexity and depth then consider the age range too!

I really appreciate the time you've spent discussing this with us.  And I appreciate the tone taken in this message, though I do understand where the frustrations come from.  Seeing some more concept art is always fun.  As a creative person, I'm a huge fan of the conceptual process, and hope to see more of it for themes like Nexo Knights as well as for any upcoming themes like Castle.

Glad to hear that Space and Castle will return.  It makes sense to take a break or try something different after an unsuccessful iteration, as it allows you time to absorb feedback, to understand why the theme didn't perform and to make improvements.  I am hopeful that Space and Castle themes can be made to target the 7+ or 9+ age range rather than the 4/5+ range (although I welcome sets in this range as well).  I'd really love to see something in your 16+ range, like the Creator Expert Modulars or the Ultimate Collector Series.  So hopefully the powers that be will choose to target the older kids with the next iterations of Castle (and Space & Pirates).  I am curious to know if this is a realistic possibility, or an expectation that should be dispelled.

50 minutes ago, SirBlake said:

Forgive me, but I do think these concerns are unfounded. For the most part (there are always going to be unreasonable people) everyone understands that TLG has a line that they will not cross, so I don't think you have anything to worry about there. Any sets that they release that are more adult focused a realized either through their size, complexity, or subject matter that is acceptable for kids, but perhaps it may not appeal to them as much. To put it another way, I think we can all agree that we're not going to be seeing Game of Thrones Lego, ever. And that's just fine.

@Nabii, Glad you're still in this thread. Your thoughts are valued. I see where you're coming from as far as age range and all of the factors that play into that, from build complexity to the level of fun and freedom designers get with older age products. That said, I do think that perfectly good Castle can be made for the younger ranges that can still appeal to all ages. For example, 2013 Castle could have been a big hit here based on the fact that the builds were fine, it just needed different heraldry. Kingdoms is a good example of this. But I suppose that is a separate and long-dead conversation that we don't need to rehash.

I am curious about one thing that you've mentioned more than once: that we should be careful how we sound to the designers. For myself, and I think the majority of us, nobody wants to come off as a whiner or complainer, but we are passionate and we are honest. I'm sure that can be annoying to someone in your position, but at the same time, I think this feedback should be valued. While we may be a vocal minority, that doesn't mean we're spoiled brats. At the end of the day, we are consumers of a product we love, and TLG is fortunate enough to have good access to their consumer in the form of this and other forums. Telling a company what we would like to see is different than complaining for the sake of complaining. It's not always going to be sunshine and rainbows, and simply put, we have a right to vent our frustrations and I would hope that you and other Lego decision makers would respect that.

I agree on all points here.  I don't think there's anything to worry about with LEGO breaking their position on content.  And as much as I'd love to see Game of Thrones in LEGO, I know it's not going to happen.  I'd be really happy to see LEGO create an in house Castle theme that took notes from Game of Thrones and Tolkien, though, with a more serious, darker tone (while still being attractive to the target audience).

And I agree about the tone that a lot of us take.  There can be a fine line between being passionate about Castle and sounding entitled.  Occasionally, we can be perceived to be speaking from the latter position, but I think that most of us just feel very strongly and want to discuss both our frustrations with choices like Nexo Knights and our ideas for improving the Castle theme.  So I definitely apologize if I come across as a whiny brat, as that is certainly not the intent, but I do want to be able to continue to express my opinions openly about the product that I enjoy spending my money and time with.

[Murrig Icehammer]

Personally speaking, i think the complexity of single sets isn't that important. Sure it'd be nice to see some nice 16+ castle sets, but since i'm building things on my own anyway, that's not on my personal priority list. What is most important to me would be the tone and length of a new castle line.

Again i'm only speaking for myself, but i would much more prefer a more toned down and more down to earth feeling castle line (the opposite to what we have right now). 

 

What i really would love to see would be a revival of the fantasy theme with all the new accessories we have now thanks to LotR (like the various new LotR based helmets, horses and let's not forget the wonderful looking Knight great helmet or the neat looking LotR swords). Maybe shifting the main human faction from the classic medieval times to very early renaissance (ca. 1500). This would open up many new possibilities like very big cannons or even ships (thinking about early explorers like magellan, or even pirates like Drake but in a low toned fantasy setting). It could even be combined with a Lego Pirates theme.

Of course other races like classic fantasy elves, dwarves and orcs should not be forgotten. I think fantasy era (2007 onwards) had the best approach for a non licensed dwarf/orc faction. Altough Dwarves could be made a bit more steampunk-ish (mabye similar to ninjago), while elves could be made more nature focussed with towers and fortesses integrated or resembling giant trees and so on. There could be centaurs roaming the plains or something different, like a race of plant based beings or lizard-like beings like argonians or cat like Khajiit (both from the elder scrolls series). There could be even some vikings again!

Orcs could be done with a bigger and more muscular looking torso mold to make them look more massive (think of WoWs orcs).

So many possibilities...

 

Another theme i'd love to see would be a Lego castle theme centered around life in a medieval city (thinking something in the spirit of the "1400: the guild" game series). Altough it is not about team red vs blue, it could still contain enough conflict to be exciting for kids (like city guards vs thieves guild or an outside threat). But the main theme would be to recreate a functionally medieval city including a tavern, city hall, blacksmith and so on, being even somwewhat educational. I think a age of 12 or 16+ would be ideal for this. (At least more suited for kids than a GoT adaption which would be tonally totally off the mark IMO.)

[thetang22]

7 minutes ago, Murrig Icehammer said:

So many possibilities...

Just gotta say that I agree with pretty much all of what you just said.  We've all thrown out tons of great ideas over the years, and these remind me of some good ones that many of us could get behind.

7 minutes ago, Murrig Icehammer said:

(like city guards vs thieves guild)

Wolfpack, anyone?  I've been working on a Lego RPG'ish boardgame for use with friends and family (think of the map image linked earlier)...and the Wolfpack were going to be a faction that was located IN the main city.  They would represent something similar to a thieves guild...a collection of people down on their luck that secretly organized to bring some balance of power back in their favor.

[gedren_y]

If we're thinking early renaissance, then a bit of Shakespeare (Othello, Romeo & Juliet) with versions of a lot of the historical figures (Nostradamus, Da Vinci, Michelangelo). Lots of architectural details, dueling with blades, costume ball, thieves guild, astrology/astronomy, etc. This could then lead into an Explorers theme for the Pirates fans (think Marco Polo).

[Murrig Icehammer]

Just now, gedren_y said:

If we're thinking early renaissance, then a bit of Shakespeare (Othello, Romeo & Juliet) with versions of a lot of the historical figures (Nostradamus, Da Vinci, Michelangelo). Lots of architectural details, dueling with blades, costume ball, thieves guild, astrology/astronomy, etc. This could then lead into an Explorers theme for the Pirates fans (think Marco Polo).

Indeed! Personally i found that period much more appealing, just for the sheer amount of possibilities!

Let's not forget that the knight in shiny armor (full plate) is from that time period too.

At least in a fantasy context, i see no reason why there couldn't be Knights roaming the land doing quests and fighting dragons and so on. (Let's just assume that firearms never become powerful enough to make heavy armor pointless )

[gedren_y]

 Don Quixote?

[x105Black]

4 hours ago, Murrig Icehammer said:

Personally speaking, i think the complexity of single sets isn't that important. Sure it'd be nice to see some nice 16+ castle sets, but since i'm building things on my own anyway, that's not on my personal priority list. What is most important to me would be the tone and length of a new castle line.

Again i'm only speaking for myself, but i would much more prefer a more toned down and more down to earth feeling castle line (the opposite to what we have right now). 

I think that aiming towards an older (7-16+) demographic will enable the team to keep that tone that you (and most of us) are looking for.  I'd really like to see that, as opposed to the sets aiming towards the younger, little child demographic (4-5+).

[SirBlake]

9 hours ago, x105Black said:

I think that aiming towards an older (7-16+) demographic will enable the team to keep that tone that you (and most of us) are looking for.  I'd really like to see that, as opposed to the sets aiming towards the younger, little child demographic (4-5+).

That would be a cool departure for sure that I would welcome, but I don't think it's strictly necessary. Generally speaking, castle doesn't require too much in the way of super complicated builds. That said, the step up in build sophistication that came with Hobbit/LotR was nice. 

So I guess my point is, any level is good for me as long as factions and heraldry are on point. 

[x105Black]

1 hour ago, SirBlake said:

That would be a cool departure for sure that I would welcome, but I don't think it's strictly necessary. Generally speaking, castle doesn't require too much in the way of super complicated builds. That said, the step up in build sophistication that came with Hobbit/LotR was nice. 

So I guess my point is, any level is good for me as long as factions and heraldry are on point. 

I would think that, with the aim towards an older demographic, the minifigure quality would increase along with the build sophistication.  So even a battle pack of minifigures targeting the slightly older crowd will be much more to our liking than one that targets the little children.

[ElectroDiva]

@Nabii - firstly, thank you very much for your participation in this forum. It is a credit to you that you continue to engage with the community here despite disagreeing with some of the points raised. 

 

I would like to respectfully challenge a few of your statements however:

 

On 16/06/2017 at 10:07 AM, Nabii said:

Of course one day traditional Space and Castle themes will return, never give up hope, but if any theme 'type' suffers a perceived 'failure' or even just does 'okay', there is a large chance there will be a break for a while.

 

Most people on here fully recognise that TLG is a commercial enterprise and it's primary focus of course will always be making money for investors.

However, if it turns out that Nexo Knights suffers a "perceived" failure - I would suggest that the marketing people who came up with a hybrid Space/Castle concept should re-evaluate their selection criteria for new themes.

A lot of longstanding fans of both the Castle and Space themes have always been very skeptical of such a hybrid concept.

 

On 16/06/2017 at 10:07 AM, Nabii said:

I see it said in many places that because the adult community is growing that more and more sets will/should be developed for them. Be careful it makes you sound like train/monorail fans from ten years ago :D!

 

Not sure which places you're referring to but many of the AFOLs on here are not asking for lots and lots of new sets. They realise TLG is a toy company and has to cater for kids first and foremost. However, kids eventually grow up and (some) become AFOLs. Shouldn't their custom also be valued?

 

Quite a few of the traditional Castle fans on here would be happy with just *one* decent (creator expert type) Castle set each year. I would suspect the same applies for AFOL Space, Pirates and Train fans. 

Is this something TLG would consider? 

Think of how useful such an approach would be to keep long term fans invested in the brand.

 

It may also help address this type of frustration on the designer's part:

 

On 16/06/2017 at 10:07 AM, Nabii said:

(I personally get frustrated designing 5+ as the restrictions drive me nuts).

 

[MAB]

On 17/06/2017 at 5:37 PM, ElectroDiva said:

Most people on here fully recognise that TLG is a commercial enterprise and it's primary focus of course will always be making money for investors.

However, if it turns out that Nexo Knights suffers a "perceived" failure - I would suggest that the marketing people who came up with a hybrid Space/Castle concept should re-evaluate their selection criteria for new themes.

3

Remember LEGO is family owned, and doesn't have "investors" as such. They are not going to take their money elsewhere if they disagree with the individual product lines.

I doubt LEGO would ever declare NK as a failure. In the 2016 report they wrote: Among the top selling lines in 2016 were core themes like LEGO® City, LEGO® Star Wars™, LEGO® NINJAGO®, LEGO Friends, LEGO Creator and LEGO® DUPLO®. The new theme LEGO® NEXO KNIGHTS™, that combines physical and digital play through building sets, digital gaming and inspirational storytelling, was also a contributor to growth. It may well be that NK never breaks into that top tier of best selling sets - it will never break the hold of City, SW, Friends, Creator or Duplo. The only thing it could possibly knock from the list is Ninjago and that is very unlikely given its popularity. Does that give it the status of perceived failure? We can all perceive it as a failure if we see it for sale at a discount, but then the same is true for City, SW, Ninjago, Friends, Creator, Duplo, ... Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, Chima, Monster Fighters, Galaxy Squad, Alien Conquest, Atlantis, ... The fans will never really know what is a failure. Many of us may think LOTR and The Hobbit were great lines sadly cut short, when the reality is probably different.

On 17/06/2017 at 5:37 PM, ElectroDiva said:

A lot of longstanding fans of both the Castle and Space themes have always been very skeptical of such a hybrid concept.
 

 

Longstanding fans of those themes are probably not the demographic that NK is aimed at. Brickset indicates 85 NK sets so far, including bags that were given away with comics. Plus another 20 or so "gear" type items. That type of product line, some large sets, many smaller sets and then a lot of media / comic giveaway sets, combined with the app game and other media shows simply that this is a theme aimed at kids. I doubt lego really care what longstanding (and therefore old) fans of space and castle think of the hybrid concept of the theme, as it isn't aimed at them.

[Nabii]

On 17/06/2017 at 6:37 PM, ElectroDiva said:

@Nabii - firstly, thank you very much for your participation in this forum. It is a credit to you that you continue to engage with the community here despite disagreeing with some of the points raised. 

 

I would like to respectfully challenge a few of your statements however:

 

 

Most people on here fully recognise that TLG is a commercial enterprise and it's primary focus of course will always be making money for investors.

However, if it turns out that Nexo Knights suffers a "perceived" failure - I would suggest that the marketing people who came up with a hybrid Space/Castle concept should re-evaluate their selection criteria for new themes.

A lot of longstanding fans of both the Castle and Space themes have always been very skeptical of such a hybrid concept.

 

 

Not sure which places you're referring to but many of the AFOLs on here are not asking for lots and lots of new sets. They realise TLG is a toy company and has to cater for kids first and foremost. However, kids eventually grow up and (some) become AFOLs. Shouldn't their custom also be valued?

 

Quite a few of the traditional Castle fans on here would be happy with just *one* decent (creator expert type) Castle set each year. I would suspect the same applies for AFOL Space, Pirates and Train fans. 

Is this something TLG would consider? 

Think of how useful such an approach would be to keep long term fans invested in the brand.

 

It may also help address this type of frustration on the designer's part:

 

 

Challenge away!

The LEGO Company does not have investors, it is family owned and this means sometimes the family decide to override commercial concerns and produce a product for reason other than profit. (Like the first Mindstorms.)

Concepts and new themes at LEGO are not created by marketing, they are created by Designers. We draw and build and test extensively, and you are right, hybrid concepts often fail, (for example so far steampunk performs terribly). But NEXO Knights outperformed all other concepts including tradition Space and Castle ideas. Marketing people are involved from very early on only to help figure out ways to communicate the themes, and sometimes to figure out ways to explain new play types, like the shield scanning in Nexo Knights.

Yes, some kids will become AFOLs, but as I said the percentage of purchasers who are buying for themselves, or other adults, has not increased, we produce as many AFOL sets at the moment as we believe the market can sustain. I too would be happy with an AFOL space set, castle set or pirate set as regularly as we get modulars, but so long as modulars, world icons, Star Wars and fairground rides are selling as well as they and seem to be keeping many of our long time adult fans *interested in the brand' so it's hard to justify doing something without a track record. (I know this sucks, I'd love to do a Shop At Home Space or more Castle sets - and who knows maybe one day I'll get that chance, just don't hold your breath for it.)

The frustration of designing for 5+ becomes just a challenge once you have adjusted your building style a little. Though i prefer 7+ it can still fun. And honestly if I wasn't having fun building then how can I expect the kids to have fun doing it!

 

[Trekkie99]

31 minutes ago, Nabii said:

Challenge away!

The LEGO Company does not have investors, it is family owned and this means sometimes the family decide to override commercial concerns and produce a product for reason other than profit. (Like the first Mindstorms.)

Concepts and new themes at LEGO are not created by marketing, they are created by Designers. We draw and build and test extensively, and you are right, hybrid concepts often fail, (for example so far steampunk performs terribly). But NEXO Knights outperformed all other concepts including tradition Space and Castle ideas. Marketing people are involved from very early on only to help figure out ways to communicate the themes, and sometimes to figure out ways to explain new play types, like the shield scanning in Nexo Knights.

Yes, some kids will become AFOLs, but as I said the percentage of purchasers who are buying for themselves, or other adults, has not increased, we produce as many AFOL sets at the moment as we believe the market can sustain. I too would be happy with an AFOL space set, castle set or pirate set as regularly as we get modulars, but so long as modulars, world icons, Star Wars and fairground rides are selling as well as they and seem to be keeping many of our long time adult fans *interested in the brand' so it's hard to justify doing something without a track record. (I know this sucks, I'd love to do a Shop At Home Space or more Castle sets - and who knows maybe one day I'll get that chance, just don't hold your breath for it.)

The frustration of designing for 5+ becomes just a challenge once you have adjusted your building style a little. Though i prefer 7+ it can still fun. And honestly if I wasn't having fun building then how can I expect the kids to have fun doing it!

 

Steampunk performs bad? Wow, that's sad.  

Since Lego has become so popular, more and more kids are aware of the AFOL community nowadays. Hopefully, that means that more and more kids will come back to their Lego bricks when they're older. Or, many may not even experience a dark age! I'm curious what kids who grew up with Ninjago will want when they become AFOLs when they're in their thirties or forties.

I also want to say Nabii that I love your building style.   There's a signature feeling about the sets that you design that I really like. Favorite set? 5973!

 

 

Edited June 19, 2017 by LegoMonorailFan