"Castle lines never die" or "what made me change my mind and believe in new exciting castle lines".

[x105Black]

I had no problem whatsoever with the 70401 Carriage.  And I don't care much for that style of staircase in 70403, but I'll agree that the structure is lacking.

[MAB]

On 24/05/2017 at 1:12 PM, Oederland said:

Considering the designs of the last sets of the Castle theme it would increase the price by 0.01 % at maximum. Really. I appreciate the work of the guys at TLC, but it happens to be the case that some of the designs were very, very poor, much worse compared to sets that were released some years ago. The carriage in 70401 is just ugly, the catapult in 70402 falls way behind previous ones, the stairways in 70403 is nice (basically a rehash of those in The Hobbit 79004 and LotR 9472), but the rest of the structure is pointless. In case the designer has worked more than 10 min to come up with something like this then TLC should consider to ask someone else the next time.

 

1

If the designs are really that poor, what would be the point of including more than one design?

 

As to 70403, I believe you are looking at it through the eyes of an adult. My son (8) has that set and loves it.  That "pointless" structure is (i) a prison where the dragon knight keeps the princess, (ii) the wizard's tower and cave beneath, (iii) a bridge from which the dragon knight throws things or shoots at the king's knights, and sometimes the bridge gets hit by rocks shot from the catapult and falls down, (iv) hidey-holes underneath where either other dragon knights hide, or the king's knights hide when they attack to rescue the princess, or a hiding place for treasure and (v) the staircase itself where the knights often battle it out. And it is quite simple, so easily rebuilt if the dragon crashes into it.

All that, plus the dragon, for a fairly low price point.

Remember that designers work to a price point. I have no doubt the structure could have looked a lot better if it had another 350 pieces. But at double the cost, would it have been worth it by doubling the play value? Probably not.

 

Edited May 26, 2017 by MAB

[x105Black]

38 minutes ago, MAB said:

Remember that designers work to a price point. I have no doubt the structure could have looked a lot better if it had another 350 pieces. But at double the cost, would it have been worth it by doubling the play value? Probably not.

... Or if they didn't use so many pieces on a catapult, which could be a set of its own.

[Oederland]

On 5/24/2017 at 7:51 PM, x105Black said:

And I don't care much for that style of staircase in 70403, but I'll agree that the structure is lacking.

The staircase is alright; I actually like it. What I meant is that it was no new unique design element, but a rehash from previous sets, so the designers didn't have to spend much time on "inventing" it. I don't see anything else on the structure of that set for which one would (have) need(ed) a designer.

On 5/24/2017 at 7:51 PM, x105Black said:

I had no problem whatsoever with the 70401 Carriage.

22 minutes ago, MAB said:

As to 70403, I believe you are looking at it through the eyes of an adult. My son (8) has that set and loves it.

Well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so some might like it and some might not. Given that the theme lasted for one wave only the sales might have been rather disappointing though. Anyway. I wouldn't describe myself as a typical AFOL, as I don't invest much money in buying sets, nor do I try to create a large castle army or to get as many interesting elements for my own MOCs with minimum amount of money. I basically look at TLC sets once in a while as they remind me of my childhood (I don't have the sets any more unfortunately), and I can see huge progress in some themes compared to the sets I was playing with (e. g. vehicles from City in general), but I can also see regress in Castle in some aspects. 70403 might have some play features, but nonetheless the design looks very poor to me (and so does e. g. 7947). You get five minifigs and a dragon and a catapult (which I would have played with as a child myself, in contrast to the one in 70402), accepted, but I would not award the set for being the nicest ever in the world. And I don't think this has to do with the number of pieces. I don't like 7093, and I wouldn't have liked it as a kid, as I was never really into these sceleton-type buildings, but there is something about it, it could be considered "weird" but it feels consistent, and I can imagine that many children have enjoyed the set.

 

[x105Black]

22 minutes ago, Oederland said:

I don't like 7093, and I wouldn't have liked it as a kid, as I was never really into these sceleton-type buildings, but there is something about it, it could be considered "weird" but it feels consistent, and I can imagine that many children have enjoyed the set.

That's a great example of what I was talking about earlier when I said not to do anything too outlandish.  7947 is a much better looking structure than either 7093 or 70403, and it would be the same if you swapped color schemes.

[Oederland]

No idea. If I had to rank those three sets "objectively" based on the structure included I'd probably go with 7093 > 7947 > 70403, as I could imagine a large amount of children being attracted by the sceleton-type structure (otherwise we also wouldn't see the repetitions of sceleton islands in Pirates theme, and similar structures by other companies like Playmobil, Fisher Price).

Based on the pieces provided I would go with 7947 > 7093, 70403. I have been around at a friend's house once, playing with his son, trying to create a more realistic castle structure out of 7093 (it was his idea, not mine ;) ). There wasn't that much that we could do; we ended up in disassembling 7079 as well. I could imagine that with 7947, you can build different types of structures more easily. I mean, we all know that Lego can be combined in various ways, but children usually have a limited range of sets and pieces.

[thetang22]

4 hours ago, x105Black said:

... Or if they didn't use so many pieces on a catapult, which could be a set of its own.

I see this as a big issue with Lego.  I'm not exactly sure how long it has been like this, but it seems most sets are required to have an "opposition" element to them.  As if every set has to be 1 side vs. the other.  There are some exceptions (I think)...but for the most part it's always 1 faction attacking another.  And in design purposes, that means they have to do "something" for the attacking side...whether a carriage, a catapult, a brick built monster....or something.  As a result, as x105Black indicates....these primary structures are losing out on piece counts that could make the structure itself more compelling or useful.

I look back at many of my sets from the late 80s/early 90s, and while there were some sets that featured 1 side vs. another....I seem to remember there were a LOT of sets that featured almost nothing but 1 faction, and maybe a prisoner from another faction.  It was sorta nice collecting a favored faction back then, rather than having a 2-faction system in which every set included figures from both.

[Oederland]

28 minutes ago, thetang22 said:

I see this as a big issue with Lego.  I'm not exactly sure how long it has been like this, but it seems most sets are required to have an "opposition" element to them.  As if every set has to be 1 side vs. the other.  There are some exceptions (I think)...but for the most part it's always 1 faction attacking another.  And in design purposes, that means they have to do "something" for the attacking side...whether a carriage, a catapult, a brick built monster....or something.  As a result, as x105Black indicates....these primary structures are losing out on piece counts that could make the structure itself more compelling or useful.

I look back at many of my sets from the late 80s/early 90s, and while there were some sets that featured 1 side vs. another....I seem to remember there were a LOT of sets that featured almost nothing but 1 faction, and maybe a prisoner from another faction.  It was sorta nice collecting a favored faction back then, rather than having a 2-faction system in which every set included figures from both.

Good point. But I'm not sure whether this is a disadvantage per se or not. Considering City sets, I think it is a plus that they throw in a burglar plus some equipment, possibly a vehicle, or that the fire brigade sets come with a small building on fire, so that you already have something/someone to fight based on a single set (of course, one could always argue whether it would have been better to throw in a different type of vehicle). When it comes to City you can easily mix sets from different subthemes, and accordingly, there's always some cheap set that you can add to your collection.

This is not the case for Castle. If you want to play with medieval stuff a police car won't do you any good, you have to rely on other Castle sets. Maybe TLC has speculated that you (or your parents) will be forced into buying the large sets in case only few cheap sets are offered. Now if there are only few sets to choose from in the beginning, and only one or two cheap ones, then you might not get going at all though, or you might stop with that theme as soon as it is discarded (and then be forced into another ;) ). When I was a kid I didn't have any larger TLC Castle sets, likely due to my Playmobil sets. But the principle was the same, it took longer till sets were discontinued (which is still the case when it comes to Playmobil nowadays), new sets (and fractions) were added frequently, there were various small and intermediate ones, which kept me playing with Playmobil Castle for several years.

Thus, maybe the drawback of recent Castle themes is not the combination of different fractions in certain sets as such, but the small range of sets, and the restriction to just two fractions. It also depends on the content probably. During Fantasy Era, you could have created a large (clone) army by buying multiple versions of 7009 and 5615, you could buy a catapult set or a ballista set (or several of those or a combination). It might just make more sense to have several mounted knights than having several prison carriages, and it might make more sense if you can choose whether to get a siege weapon or not.

So yeah, in my opinion TLC has not made the best out of the Castle theme at least for the last wave, and possibly already not the best for the second Kingdoms wave (it might have been wiser to split 7189 into two separate sets, as it was already expensive). But in the end we won't find out; we would have to know the sales figures for previous themes. Maybe Castle has been selling well all the time, but themes like Ninjago and Nexo Knights just do better.

Edited May 26, 2017 by Oederland

[Artanis I]

I understand the arguments for the "battle in a box" approach that TLG uses for themes that used to be primarily 1 faction per set, but I don't see why EVERY set must have it. Surely they could go half-and-half, some sets have the minifig mix with compromised build, some sets have a great build of just 1 faction. The kids that only get 1 set can get one of the substandard ones, and everyone else can get decent sets of whichever faction they want.

[Oederland]

On 5/29/2017 at 3:49 AM, Artanis I said:

I understand the arguments for the "battle in a box" approach that TLG uses for themes that used to be primarily 1 faction per set, but I don't see why EVERY set must have it. Surely they could go half-and-half, some sets have the minifig mix with compromised build, some sets have a great build of just 1 faction. The kids that only get 1 set can get one of the substandard ones, and everyone else can get decent sets of whichever faction they want.

If there were more sets including smaller ones with soldiers of different kind/fractions/combinations thereof then there would be no more need to buy the ridiculously overpriced battle packs.

[Lordofdragonss]

Elves is current Castle line. ANd I can understand hate for minidolls, but the sets are GLORIOUS and I dare to say that Ragana castle is better than any other castle we get for this price.

[x105Black]

2 hours ago, Lordofdragonss said:

Elves is current Castle line. ANd I can understand hate for minidolls, but the sets are GLORIOUS and I dare to say that Ragana castle is better than any other castle we get for this price.

Elves is not a Castle theme.  At least not in my opinion.  And the sets aren't that nice.  Admittedly some of them are pretty good, like the treehouse.  Ragana's castle has a little too much of the curves and spikes for me to take it seriously, but I do appreciate the black and dark purple color scheme.  And the hate for the minidolls overshadows any positives about the Elves theme.  Again, at least in my opinion.  But they do have some nice hair from time to time (as long as it doesn't have elf ears, I'm not a fan).

[ZlatanXVIGustaf]

The elves sets are probably the best sets we can buy at the moment but still, they are nowhere near as good as the middle earth lines for pieces. I have a few elves sets and I think it would be generous to say that I'm using 10% of the parts. In my opinion, your money will always be best spent on bricklink unless there is a castle line.

[gedren_y]

If you are looking to build straight historical Castle, some Star Wars sets are better in parts than Elves. Some Minecraft sets are also good to fill out medieval builds. Elves sets offer a lot of detail parts, but the bulk of the bricks are more colorful than most castle builders use.

[x105Black]

10 minutes ago, gedren_y said:

If you are looking to build straight historical Castle, some Star Wars sets are better in parts than Elves. Some Minecraft sets are also good to fill out medieval builds. Elves sets offer a lot of detail parts, but the bulk of the bricks are more colorful than most castle builders use.

I agree with all of these assessments.  I find Star Wars sets satisfy not only my love of Star Wars, but also a lot of my Castle needs.

[Niku]

May I ask what SW are you getting for building castle and what parts also?
I just have bought minecraft for parts at the moment.

[gedren_y]

36 minutes ago, Niku said:

May I ask what SW are you getting for building castle and what parts also?
I just have bought minecraft for parts at the moment.

With just a quick look through recent sets, these have good inventories for castle building.

Yoda's Jedi Starfighter
Battle on Scarif
Duel on Naboo
Droid Escape Pod
Carbon-Freezing Chamber
Battle on Takodana
Resistance  Troop Transport

[x105Black]

1 hour ago, Niku said:

May I ask what SW are you getting for building castle and what parts also?
I just have bought minecraft for parts at the moment.

Basically anything with a lot of grey, black, or darker colors.  Also, sets that include minifigures that can be appropriated into a Castle theme with a helmet change or other similar actions.

[blackie]

I have a lot of Elves sets (actually all from the first waves), but mostly because of my daugthers. They love the elves. But for Castle building? No way. Too much pink and purple. And please don't buy sets for pieces to build castle stuff, especially not licensed sets like Star Wars. This is the worst pieces for money ratio. Just use bricklink.

[MAB]

7 minutes ago, blackie said:

I have a lot of Elves sets (actually all from the first waves), but mostly because of my daugthers. They love the elves. But for Castle building? No way. Too much pink and purple. And please don't buy sets for pieces to build castle stuff, especially not licensed sets like Star Wars. This is the worst pieces for money ratio. Just use bricklink.

 

It depends what you do with them. If you sell the minifigures and any unique licensed parts, then they can be good value for castle builders. Especially if you buy at a discount.

[Lordofdragonss]

50 minutes ago, blackie said:

I have a lot of Elves sets (actually all from the first waves), but mostly because of my daugthers. They love the elves. But for Castle building? No way. Too much pink and purple. And please don't buy sets for pieces to build castle stuff, especially not licensed sets like Star Wars. This is the worst pieces for money ratio. Just use bricklink.

-50% sales in USA, remember?



:<

[blackie]

Of course, if you get the chance to buy those sets on such a sale, and if you sell the figures, then maybe you get all the pieces for free. An honest calculation would be to still account for the time and effort you need to sell them (if you are not a student), but still this might be nice. But there are too many "ifs" for me and these sales are far from being normal (at least here in Germany). Just look at the parts you really need from one of those sets, count them and calculate how much you would have spent on bricklink.

Edited June 2, 2017 by blackie

[gedren_y]

This debate has strayed quite a bit from topic.

I buy sets mainly for parts, so the lack of a Castle line affects my building less, but I do feel the lack of the factions. That is why I'd prefer the faction choice idea over the adventure story with a set of characters.

The only way I see my favored idea working from a marketing standpoint is if it is paired with a choose your own adventure type game. I don't play any of the Lego video games, so that would be wasted on me, but then again I wouldn't be the target market either.

[Oederland]

3 hours ago, gedren_y said:

I buy sets mainly for parts, so the lack of a Castle line affects my building less, but I do feel the lack of the factions.

One of those bootleg companies, in this case XINH, has just released a copy of several TLC Castle armoured horses. This is what I was dreaming of as a kid - lots of different fractions available at the same time. Now imagine TLC would do something like this, release a new fraction every half-year (in addition to the usual sets). It might be sufficient to throw in a set with one armoured horse plus a knight and a flag to keep the theme going, maybe another smaller one with two foot soldiers. The molds are already there, so one would just have to come up with a new design/charge. This shouldn't be that difficult. You could go with swan, pegasus, phoenix, tower, tree, ...

Edited June 2, 2017 by Oederland

[SirBlake]

1 hour ago, Oederland said:

Now imagine TLC would do something like this, release a new fraction every half-year (in addition to the usual sets). It might be sufficient to throw in a set with one armoured horse plus a knight and a flag to keep the theme going, maybe another smaller one with two foot soldiers. The molds are already there, so one would just have to come up with a new design/charge. This shouldn't be that difficult. You could go with swan, pegasus, phoenix, tower, tree, ...

I would buy all of that.