"Castle lines never die" or "what made me change my mind and believe in new exciting castle lines".

[rodiziorobs]

On 1/16/2018 at 3:34 AM, x105Black said:

There's nothing wrong with targeting this audience, and LEGO does this all the time.  There are many great sets in the Creator Expert range, and even Ninjago and Nexo Knights target a higher age range than Castle traditionally targets.  While they will never go fully mature, they can issue sets that will appeal to that demographic.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this, and you're right, TLG does issue sets that shoot for that corner of the populace. However, those tend to be more expensive limited run, one-off, or D2C sets.

What I am saying is while the theme/genre has a certain popularity, it isn't (or at least doesn't seem to be) popular enough with TLG's usual audience (kids) to create a whole theme behind it without mashing up genres, at least for now. But that's what this thread is all about, right--hope for some future thing that is like those things from the past?

[x105Black]

49 minutes ago, rodiziorobs said:

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this, and you're right, TLG does issue sets that shoot for that corner of the populace. However, those tend to be more expensive limited run, one-off, or D2C sets.

What I am saying is while the theme/genre has a certain popularity, it isn't (or at least doesn't seem to be) popular enough with TLG's usual audience (kids) to create a whole theme behind it without mashing up genres, at least for now. But that's what this thread is all about, right--hope for some future thing that is like those things from the past?

True, they do tend to create things for an older audience that are expensive one-off sets.  That doesn't have to be the case.  As I've said, even Big Bang themes are targeting a higher age range than Castle, City, or any standard evergreen theme.  Also, they regularly release Architecture sets for a higher age range as well.

Based on those ideas, creating a wave of Castle sets that target the upper age ranges with complex builds, high quality packaging (they do this with Architecture and Ideas because it ostensibly appeals to older collector types), and slightly more mature design is a completely feasible concept.  It could work.  And creating sets from as low as $10 - $15 to as high as $200+ with maybe 10 sets a year would give everyone an opportunity to participate rather than just those who can afford the big D2C set.

Ultimately, I think that's what I'd really like to see.  And to be honest, I think it's the best way to create some future thing that is like those things from the past, because it creates something that appeals to the grown up versions of those past children who enjoyed the Castle sets of the 80s & 90s.

[thetang22]

On January 15, 2018 at 12:01 PM, MAB said:

Is it the medieval setting or the medieval killing that makes Skyrim popular? Isn't that a 15/18 rated game?

The android NK app has 10M-50M installs and 222,000 reviews, nearly all 5 star, so must be doing something right in targetting the 5-11 year old age range that LEGO sets are also aimed at.

What makes Skyrim popular?  I'd say its due to the Elder Scrolls series being known as the big medieval sandbox series, where they give you pretty extensive flexibility to play the game however you want.  (Sounds a bit like what Legos are supposed to be).  Beyond that, the series has encouraged mod support almost more than any other well-known game, which is huge for its popularity.  (Hmm, doing player mods also sounds suspiciously close to what Lego encourages).

In regards to the NK app, saying its between 10-50 million downloads....come on - that is a MASSIVE range, with drastically different implications on each end.  That's like describing a suspect to a police officer and saying "well, he was between 5ft and 9ft tall."

Beyond that, the app is free, isn't it?  There is no investment needed....so anyone can check it out whether they care all that much or not.

[x105Black]

45 minutes ago, thetang22 said:

What makes Skyrim popular?  I'd say its due to the Elder Scrolls series being known as the big medieval sandbox series, where they give you pretty extensive flexibility to play the game however you want.  (Sounds a bit like what Legos are supposed to be).  Beyond that, the series has encouraged mod support almost more than any other well-known game, which is huge for its popularity.  (Hmm, doing player mods also sounds suspiciously close to what Lego encourages).

Sounds like an endorsement for a line of Elder Scrolls themes LEGO sets, and I'm with you.  Never played an Elder Scrolls game, but I know a lot about it and would welcome the theme happily.

[rodiziorobs]

3 hours ago, x105Black said:

Based on those ideas, creating a wave of Castle sets that target the upper age ranges with complex builds, high quality packaging (they do this with Architecture and Ideas because it ostensibly appeals to older collector types), and slightly more mature design is a completely feasible concept.  It could work.  And creating sets from as low as $10 - $15 to as high as $200+ with maybe 10 sets a year would give everyone an opportunity to participate rather than just those who can afford the big D2C set

I would love to see this, honestly. And you're right--themes like Ninjago coming out with sets obviously meant to engage an older audience could be evidence that a traditional castle theme could work with bigger, more complex sets in the future.

[MAB]

14 hours ago, thetang22 said:

In regards to the NK app, saying its between 10-50 million downloads....come on - that is a MASSIVE range, with drastically different implications on each end.  That's like describing a suspect to a police officer and saying "well, he was between 5ft and 9ft tall."

 

1

That is how it is reported in the play store.

 

There is a big difference between sets aimed at adults / older teens due to techniques used or difficulty and sets aimed at adults / older teens because of their content, be it violence or whatever. Younger kids will still see them, whatever the age range they are aimed at. Seeing a difficult set aimed at adults is different to seeing a violent set aimed at adults.

Edited January 18, 2018 by MAB

[x105Black]

8 hours ago, MAB said:

There is a big difference between sets aimed at adults / older teens due to techniques used or difficulty and sets aimed at adults / older teens because of their content, be it violence or whatever. Younger kids will still see them, whatever the age range they are aimed at. Seeing a difficult set aimed at adults is different to seeing a violent set aimed at adults.

It doesn't have to be aimed at "mature" "adult" things, just a slightly more mature theme with adults in mind.  Techniques would be one way to do that.  Color choices would be another, as it could be darker rather than bright.  It doesn't have to be filled with blood and sex to appeal to a more mature audience of adults.  Something as simple as having a couple of factions without identifying which is good or bad could help.

[fred67]

My apologies for this late post in this thread - as I've mentioned elsewhere, I've been away from EB for nearly a year.  Now I see this thread is quite long, and haven't read it all, so forgive me if I'm repeating anything.

It seems to me we could potentially all be much happier, as a start, if TLG would just release bricks in color palettes.  A box of gray, a box of black, a box of brown or green.  I don't see why that would be too much trouble, but I do believe it doesn't happen (they have, in the past, released smaller sets of plates in specific colors, as I recall) because then we won't need to buy 50 of a particular set to get the gray bricks we need.

A second step is just releasing small sets of castle figures now and again.  No need to make big sets out of them.  That might be asking a lot more, because it's a specific theme, but the I think we'd all be happy - castle, sci-fi, town and other "themes' if we could boxes of particular colors.... and, as I said, I also feel that's why it won't happen.

[MAB]

8 hours ago, fred67 said:

My apologies for this late post in this thread - as I've mentioned elsewhere, I've been away from EB for nearly a year.  Now I see this thread is quite long, and haven't read it all, so forgive me if I'm repeating anything.

It seems to me we could potentially all be much happier, as a start, if TLG would just release bricks in color palettes.  A box of gray, a box of black, a box of brown or green.  I don't see why that would be too much trouble, but I do believe it doesn't happen (they have, in the past, released smaller sets of plates in specific colors, as I recall) because then we won't need to buy 50 of a particular set to get the gray bricks we need.

A second step is just releasing small sets of castle figures now and again.  No need to make big sets out of them.  That might be asking a lot more, because it's a specific theme, but the I think we'd all be happy - castle, sci-fi, town and other "themes' if we could boxes of particular colors.... and, as I said, I also feel that's why it won't happen.

Unfortunately also the way sets are made these days, creativity appears to be lacking. So many kids build sets and leave them built. And of course LEGO benefits from this as people then buy more sets rather than use what they have. I wonder what sales are like for the Classic style boxes. My kids use their bucket full of bricks much more than the bricks that come in their sets and are more creative with them, not just following instructions. But when a parent or grandparent sees a cool set vs a pack of plain bricks, what do they buy? I doubt sales for mono-colour packs, like the old service packs, would sell too well.

[KristinnK]

As a counterpoint to the "medieval settings in media mainly appealing to older audiences" point, a TV series adaptation of The Wheel of Time is currently in development. For those that are not familiar, The Wheel of Time was the most popular fantasy series of the 90's, has a pseudo-medieval setting and plenty of warrior culture, castles and fortresses. And importantly to this discussion, the themes and story elements are much more kid-friendly than Game of Thrones. If the TV series success level is anywhere near Game of Thrones, TLG might very well decide to ride the show's coat-tails.

It could be what the Lord of the Rings theme could have been had it been released in concert with the films. Just like in LotR there are plenty of named and beloved characters, the world is even larger than that of the LotR, with various different nations with different aesthetics (making it easier to design a large range of sets that are not redundant). Also, the series is even longer than Game of Thrones (and importantly, complete), so the TV-series and the accompanying Lego theme could last for many years, with many waves of sets.

But the series is still in pre-production, it will still be 2-3 years at least before it is released, and another year before it becomes popular enough to draw business (if all goes well), and then another year to develop sets. Ideally Nexo Knights will be replaced with a more classic Castle line in 2019 or 2020 to relieve the pent-up demand, and then it could be replaced by the more fantasy-oriented Wheel of Time line in 2022 or 2023. This would appeal to TLG by cycling through different aesthetics (technological-classic-fantasy) and thereby capturing the widest range of consumers.

[fred67]

8 hours ago, MAB said:

But when a parent or grandparent sees a cool set vs a pack of plain bricks, what do they buy? I doubt sales for mono-colour packs, like the old service packs, would sell too well.

Interesting take, but what would a grandparent consider a cool set?  By that logic, they'd walk past the castle theme entirely and get Batman, so we're screwed either way.

Much like the popularity of the PAB walls at LEGO stores, I think kids would be interested in mono-color (or similar color, like LBG and DBG packs together) - I know my multicolor spaceships were fine, but if I could have made them much more cool by having the colors I actually wanted, I would have been happier.  My multicolored buildings, also.  There's nothing wrong with them if those are the bricks you have, but it's not really what anybody - kids included, actually want.

 

[icm]

8 hours ago, MAB said:

Unfortunately also the way sets are made these days, creativity appears to be lacking. So many kids build sets and leave them built.

As a kid, I never wanted the parts in the X-wing set for the sake of building something else - I wanted the X-wing, because the makeshift X-wings I built from loose parts were never any good.  I'm still that way, decades later.

[fred67]

Well, icm, I'm a lot like you.  Frankly, I have a mental disorder that won't allow me to take apart a cool set for the parts - if I want the parts, I'd have to buy two sets.  I've gotten better over the years, but it's still true for the most part.  It's not my creativity lacking (or perhaps it is - I think they use the parts better than I can); I would guess I have somewhere in the neighborhood of 100k loose parts that I build things with.

Which adds to the point I was making.  For example, how many of you think a box of gray profile bricks wouldn't sell out?  I know that when they released roof tile packs, doors and windows, and wheels and axles, the only thing I ever saw on the shelf at the LEGO Store was wheels and axles - roof, and doors and windows (set 9386 from 2010) and roof tiles (set 6119 from 2008)  was always sold out.

Now, logically, wouldn't that mean they should make more?  Why retire sets that constantly sell out the minute they hit shelves?

I do think there's a market for mono color brick packs (and specialty packs, including doors/windows/profile bricks, etc.), but then you wouldn't have to buy a bunch of other sets to get the parts you wanted.

 

Edited January 23, 2018 by fred67

[Agent Kallus]

If the creator pirate roller-coaster does well perhaps we'll the dragon coaster from legoland and that is mostly a castle, hey it'ould be better than nothing.

On 17/01/2018 at 9:17 PM, x105Black said:

a line of Elder Scrolls themes LEGO 

I would love that, but sadly I doubt it though the new city mammoth could be useful in skyrim mocs.

Edited January 23, 2018 by Agent Kallus

[dgherko]

14 hours ago, MAB said:

Unfortunately also the way sets are made these days, creativity appears to be lacking. So many kids build sets and leave them built. And of course LEGO benefits from this as people then buy more sets rather than use what they have. I wonder what sales are like for the Classic style boxes. My kids use their bucket full of bricks much more than the bricks that come in their sets and are more creative with them, not just following instructions. But when a parent or grandparent sees a cool set vs a pack of plain bricks, what do they buy? I doubt sales for mono-colour packs, like the old service packs, would sell too well.

I have spoken to coworkers that have young kids and these parents take pride when their 5 and 6 year olds can follow the directions for the more complex teenage builds. There is a great level of pride that there kids can build at tgat level.  The sets become models of accomplishment and remain as designed.

 

I too would be happy with battle packs new weapons, animals (both domestic and wild) lots of horses and even a small hut

[x105Black]

2 hours ago, Agent Kallus said:

If the creator pirate roller-coaster does well perhaps we'll the dragon coaster from legoland and that is mostly a castle, hey it'ould be better than nothing.

I would love that, but sadly I doubt it though the new city mammoth could be useful in skyrim mocs.

I wasn't really talking about the mammoth, but OK.

Now that you bring it up though, the mammoth would be great for general fantasy builds.

[Aanchir]

On 1/15/2018 at 12:08 PM, gedren_y said:

Such a pity that K'NEX has the Nintendo license.

I don't know if K'nex's Nintendo license is all-inclusive. I haven't seen much from them outside the Mario family of games/characters. Just as LEGO's Disney license doesn't extend to every single Disney property ever, I doubt that K'nex's Nintendo license would include the likes of, say, Splatoon or Metroid or Zelda.

Overall I still think the likelihood of a new Castle or Castle-ish theme to replace Nexo Knights in 2019 is very high, provided it doesn't overlap too much with whatever is planned for The LEGO Movie Sequel.

On 1/15/2018 at 7:45 PM, gedren_y said:

Until Elves sunsets we likely won't see a minifig high fantasy version of Castle. If Nexo Knights finishes this year, a more traditional Castle can be launched next year. I live in hope that Lego will go the more educational route, and try something like my Fables idea (several pages back).

I wouldn't be so sure. If Friends can coexist with City and DC Super Hero Girls can coexist with the regular DC Comics Super Heroes line, then I think the difference in demographics is enough that LEGO would probably be willing to have boy- and girl-targeted properties within the same genre. There's also quite a lot of room for variety in the scope of "high fantasy". Fantasy Era Castle was arguably "high fantasy" despite not having any elves or goblins in it. And LEGO clearly has no problem with subject matter like dragons appearing across multiple themes, since they already do.

(I'm hoping Elves continues for some time, because I've enjoyed it a lot more than any "proper" Castle theme.)

[MAB]

18 hours ago, fred67 said:

Interesting take, but what would a grandparent consider a cool set?  By that logic, they'd walk past the castle theme entirely and get Batman, so we're screwed either way.

 

I don't think so as, for example, City sets currently sell very well. I have no doubt kids would like parts packs but the problem when parents or grandparents buy presents is that often they want to buy a self-contained present (be it a SW spaceship or a City police van) rather than a box of stuff that requires other stuff to be used. If their present becomes mixed up with a bucket full of bricks, it almost disappears. Whereas the kid will remember the police van set that Grandad bought them for their birthday.

 

[gedren_y]

47 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

I don't know if K'nex's Nintendo license is all-inclusive. I haven't seen much from them outside the Mario family of games/characters. Just as LEGO's Disney license doesn't extend to every single Disney property ever, I doubt that K'nex's Nintendo license would include the likes of, say, Splatoon or Metroid or Zelda.

I have seen Mario Kart blind bags, which crosses most of Nintendo's classic internal properties, and makes me think they have an exclusive deal. K'NEX doesn't seem to have the production capacity that Lego does, so it may just be that they will take their time to actually make products based on that license.

47 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

Overall I still think the likelihood of a new Castle or Castle-ish theme to replace Nexo Knights in 2019 is very high, provided it doesn't overlap too much with whatever is planned for The LEGO Movie Sequel.

2019 does look to be the return of some kind of Castle line. I hadn't heard about the LEGO Movie 2 being an issue, though. I don't follow any of the discussions about them because the animation doesn't appeal to me.

47 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

I wouldn't be so sure. If Friends can coexist with City and DC Super Hero Girls can coexist with the regular DC Comics Super Heroes line, then I think the difference in demographics is enough that LEGO would probably be willing to have boy- and girl-targeted properties within the same genre. There's also quite a lot of room for variety in the scope of "high fantasy". Fantasy Era Castle was arguably "high fantasy" despite not having any elves or goblins in it. And LEGO clearly has no problem with subject matter like dragons appearing across multiple themes, since they already do.

(I'm hoping Elves continues for some time, because I've enjoyed it a lot more than any "proper" Castle theme.)

I don't just mean coexisting market concerns, but the internal production commitments and staffing. Elves has an animated series that was recently added to Netflix. It is popular with the target demographic. There are a number of newly developed parts thanks to the theme, because staff and resources have been dedicated to it. Any high fantasy theme requires a level of production commitment to create something distinct. I don't see the reallocation of resources and design staff until the decision to discontinue has been made.

Edited January 24, 2018 by gedren_y

[Digger of Bricks]

Quote

Some questions about miscellaneous themes that aren't released anymore or aren't released at all. I'm referring to, for example, Classic Space or  Western themes, castles stuff like that. There are loads of things that aren't in current themes which could be released in Creator Expert. Do you consider making a castle or some Classic Space set in Expert?
We definitely considered it. And it's similar to trains. For example, the Modular Buildings are actually part of the idea that they appeal to castle fans even though it's not a castle. It's a great way to get a lot of the parts that you would need to build a castle. Maybe more so with the older ones than with the newer ones where it got a little bit more wild with the colors, but I definitely wouldn't rule out Classic LEGO Themes. One of the questions that we have though with those is like with Classic Space is, was it so popular because there was no Star Wars? I mean when that was released there was no LEGO Star Wars. So that was the best LEGO spaceship that you could have. But now you could have the UCS Snow Speeder. So then how can we sell a classic spaceship. Will it live on nostalgia alone?Actually we begun some research to try to figure out just how powerful LEGO nostalgia is. There's some hesitation to just put a lot of faith in that, but it's not out of the question.

 

[LordBevis]

New here and 15 pages of speculation and discussion is a lot to catch up on.

With some of the re-releases as well as past data and after market data available to Lego they have a ton of information available to them that should help them release a castle/fantasy based line with more success and less of the past drawbacks.  The data they have for this even taking elements out of LOTR and HP could easily help them market a line of castle releases. Possibly even more advanced set or a few higher price point and more complex sets extremely possible.

 

I'm surprised it hasn't been done yet but I think they have the tools and I go to make a successful line they just have to pull of the band aid and get to it.

[Lyichir]

11 hours ago, LordBevis said:

New here and 15 pages of speculation and discussion is a lot to catch up on.

With some of the re-releases as well as past data and after market data available to Lego they have a ton of information available to them that should help them release a castle/fantasy based line with more success and less of the past drawbacks.  The data they have for this even taking elements out of LOTR and HP could easily help them market a line of castle releases. Possibly even more advanced set or a few higher price point and more complex sets extremely possible.

 

I'm surprised it hasn't been done yet but I think they have the tools and I go to make a successful line they just have to pull of the band aid and get to it.

The problem with this logic (which I’ve seen in many arguments in the past) is that it assumes “making a castle theme that works” is or should be a higher priority than “making any theme that works”. Lego does look at which aspects of themes have been successful and which have not, but that’s not necessarily going to lead them to a specific kind of castle theme AFOLs prefer. Nexo Knights, after all, was very much a combination of traditional castle motifs with aspects of mega-hits like Ninjago and an experimental app integration model. Elves blended the feminine appeal of Friends with medieval fantasy like that in many castle themes (including fantasy castle and Lord of the Rings) and elemental powers like in Ninjago or Bionicle. These deviations from tradition may not have endeared these themes to all fans of traditional castle, but they were where analysis of past success led and for the most part, that approach paid off by outperforming more traditional takes on the castle theme.

[LordBevis]

5 hours ago, Lyichir said:

The problem with this logic (which I’ve seen in many arguments in the past) is that it assumes “making a castle theme that works” is or should be a higher priority than “making any theme that works”. Lego does look at which aspects of themes have been successful and which have not, but that’s not necessarily going to lead them to a specific kind of castle theme AFOLs prefer. Nexo Knights, after all, was very much a combination of traditional castle motifs with aspects of mega-hits like Ninjago and an experimental app integration model. Elves blended the feminine appeal of Friends with medieval fantasy like that in many castle themes (including fantasy castle and Lord of the Rings) and elemental powers like in Ninjago or Bionicle. These deviations from tradition may not have endeared these themes to all fans of traditional castle, but they were where analysis of past success led and for the most part, that approach paid off by outperforming more traditional takes on the castle theme.

In each of the examples you mentioned it looks like Lego's goal was to "try something new"  if they continue with this method then we will always see something new that may not appear to castle AFOL's.  But if their goal is to make money and go back to a traditional castle line then the data is there for them to be creative within that.  

For example the data is there for color schemes, the data is there for what size and price point really worked well over the years.  The data should be there for if their traditional castle, tower, carriage, minifigure pack and the odd small set model outsold and made enough revenue vs straying from that model and to try something like a modular, creator, 3 in 1 type of sets or to keep it simple with little inginuity.  Either way the information is there for lego to release it and for it to be a success.  To me its whether they want to even release a new line, or if they are going to keep trying to introduce new models and themes and just put enough of the castle motif behind it to pacify the MoC builders.

[MAB]

14 minutes ago, LordBevis said:

In each of the examples you mentioned it looks like Lego's goal was to "try something new"  if they continue with this method then we will always see something new that may not appear to castle AFOL's.  But if their goal is to make money and go back to a traditional castle line then the data is there for them to be creative within that.  

 

I think the goal of NK was to make money.

 

[venomsailor]

I totally agree with a lot of folks, that a Castle theme is a must and I have a very strong feeling we will see the appearance of the new theme in January 2019.