Itaria No Shintaku

"Castle lines never die" or "what made me change my mind and believe in new exciting castle lines".

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It's important to note that Nexo Knights takes not one, but two classic theme slots; namely Castle and Space. We haven't seen proper Space sets since Galaxy Squad (and space has since the late 90's had to share it's market with Star Wars, in much the same way that Castle shares some of it's market with Ninjago).

In any case, it'll be interesting to see what plans are for 2019/2020. This year has been especially messy with two Lego movies (Ninjago and Batman) taking up a lot of retail space. The Ninjago movie was intended to come out last year (but was delayed as apparently the first cut was not up to snuff) and as such, there hasn't been much room this year for other themes. The same applies to the 1st half of 2018 where the remaining Ninjago and Batman movie sets will be released. The 2nd half and 2019 should open up space with only one Lego movie planned for another theme...

Personally, I've bought few little Castle sets in the 2000's as I've still not truly forgiven them for replacing old-grey. I wonder how many other Afols have subdued their Castle sales for the same reason.

 

 

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I don't miss Bionicle, Hero Factory, or a host of other lines, and won't miss Nexo Knights or Ninjago either.  I don't even miss the classic space line, but then again, I don't like much music that was made since about 5 years before I was born, so I am somewhat of an anachronism.  I do, however, miss the classic castle line, and enjoy the city and creator lines.

That background aside, I think that Lego did somewhat of a disservice to the Castle line (and still does something similar with City).  In my opinion, the designs were stale.  In the City line, if you look back over the years, there's always a police station, always a fire station, there's been a lot of police and fire trucks, and there are some sorts of sports vehicles.  Even back to the late 70s there are Coast Guard stations and what not.  The Ferry that's out now has a counterpart from almost 40 years ago, and many of the designs that we see and think are new actually have previous incarnations.  For City, I think this can work all right, as we live in a world of mass produced things now, and we expect to see slight variations on similar vehicles and buildings through the years.  Real-world police and fire units update their vehicles and stations, etc.

On the other hand, the medieval world is somewhat frozen in time.  A castle is are not built anymore, so we do not see continuous variation in these structures.  Similarly, horses and knights in armor aren't going to change year to year like City themes, as these are part of the past.  Given this, I think that trying to put out the "King's Castle", which has been put out with even the same name over and over since its original inception circa 1984, is less appealing and somewhat stale for kids.  Since the first blue roof castle, there has even been little change in the design in my opinion.  Some of the classic castle heyday included some non-castle dwellers, such as the forestmen, and the wolfpack.  Getting away from the reuse of old sets was a great advancement in my opinion--the Forestmen's River fortress and particularly the Mill Village Raid and the Medieval Marketplace were outstanding.  I think that Lego getting away from rehashing the same sets would be highly beneficial to a classic castle line; in particular, some examples that come to mind are peasant houses, a cooper, a tanner, a cathedral or other medieval church (although I can understand the reluctance to produce a religious set), a quarry, a small dock or port, a fisher (with or without boat), town guards, and some town sheriffs chasing brigands.  Personally, I really enjoyed the fantasy element to the castle setting (unfortunately mostly during my dark ages), and wish that we could have more dwarves, orcs, trolls, and other races.  A few castles, towers, and sets of siege equipment are good, but I would suggest changing these designs to cover different terrains, different shades of grey, tan, black, and brown, and even a few of the wooden palisade fortresses (similar to some of the Viking sets).  Different areas for castles, including Russia, Spain, France, and of course the British Isles, would be another source of variety as well.

My particular complaints with NK is that they have few pieces that are useful for castle building.  Many specialized pieces in blue, trans orange, etc.  Good for some space things, maybe some volcanoes or something, but not really enough grey/bley/brown/greens that I use for castles and medieval settings.  When the Angry Birds theme has more useful pieces, I submit that it is not a real castle theme.

Edited by Grover
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Next year is the 40th Anniversary of Lego Castle - it would be nice if Lego threw us a bone if not an entirely new series of sets. I'd be happy with a nice fat UCS set myself...

My five year old loves Nexo Knights - so it certainly does appeal to some kids out there.

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10 hours ago, TeufelHund said:

Next year is the 40th Anniversary of Lego Castle - it would be nice if Lego threw us a bone if not an entirely new series of sets. I'd be happy with a nice fat UCS set myself...

My five year old loves Nexo Knights - so it certainly does appeal to some kids out there.

I think we can expect a few castle based presents (after buying 60 euro's/dollars).

But a new theme will not appear. :cry_sad:

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14 hours ago, Grrr said:

It's important to note that Nexo Knights takes not one, but two classic theme slots; namely Castle and Space. We haven't seen proper Space sets since Galaxy Squad (and space has since the late 90's had to share it's market with Star Wars, in much the same way that Castle shares some of it's market with Ninjago).

I would say the lack of a new Space theme may have more to do with new Star Wars movies coming out than with Nexo Knights. I don't think it's any coincidence that the return of space themes from their last lengthy hiatus came shortly after the end of the prequel trilogy, while the start of the most recent hiatus came shortly before the start of the sequel trilogy. Star Wars is always a pretty big deal for LEGO, but it becomes an even bigger deal when there are new movies out. Trying to put out an original Space theme while kids are already drowning in Star Wars marketing hype would be a big risk.

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Just now, Aanchir said:

I would say the lack of a new Space theme may have more to do with new Star Wars movies coming out than with Nexo Knights. I don't think it's any coincidence that the return of space themes from their last lengthy hiatus came shortly after the end of the prequel trilogy, while the start of the most recent hiatus came shortly before the start of the sequel trilogy. Star Wars is always a pretty big deal for LEGO, but it becomes an even bigger deal when there are new movies out. Trying to put out an original Space theme while kids are already drowning in Star Wars marketing hype would be a big risk.

That's the thing, Classic Castle has better chances of returning after Nexo Knights runs down than Classic Space seems that it ever will. With multiple "Star Wars Story" movies taking up the gap in between every other year there isn't a main saga movie, and with the recent announcement of another trilogy on the horizon, I think we can safely say that we may never see another proper Space theme at this rate. :angry:

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20 hours ago, ElectroDiva said:

 

Who are these mythical kids that will mourn the loss of Nexo Knights? I have 6 nephews and nieces under the age of 11 - none of whom like NK. Their friends don't like NK either.

They all love Ninjago though...

I think it is fairly popular here. My kids enjoy the sets and a number of their friends also enjoy it.

But yes, Ninjago is a competing theme (moreso than others). So having NK and Ninjago out at the same time probably is distracting a little from the popularity of NK and NK would probably do better if Ninjago wasn't around.

 

15 hours ago, Grrr said:

It's important to note that Nexo Knights takes not one, but two classic theme slots; namely Castle and Space.

 

It doesn't, as these don't have permanent slots.

If NK didn't exist there is no indication that we would have either traditional castle sets (whether you call it Classic Castle or Neo-Classic Castle) or classic space sets.

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48 minutes ago, MAB said:

I think it is fairly popular here. My kids enjoy the sets and a number of their friends also enjoy it.

But yes, Ninjago is a competing theme (moreso than others). So having NK and Ninjago out at the same time probably is distracting a little from the popularity of NK and NK would probably do better if Ninjago wasn't around.

 

Can I ask how old they are and what appeals to them about NK?

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2 hours ago, Digger of Bricks said:

That's the thing, Classic Castle has better chances of returning after Nexo Knights runs down than Classic Space seems that it ever will. With multiple "Star Wars Story" movies taking up the gap in between every other year there isn't a main saga movie, and with the recent announcement of another trilogy on the horizon, I think we can safely say that we may never see another proper Space theme at this rate. :angry:

Agreed. I don't think Star Wars sets preclude the possibility of any other space-based sci-fi themes… LEGO managed to have three Guardians of the Galaxy sets this year, after all, and they also have the Voltron set coming out through Ideas in the future. So it's clear that they still think kids will be willing to buy other space-travel-related stuff in a Star Wars year. But it's hard to tell just what kind of circumstances it would take for a full, in-house space theme to be a really safe bet once again.

While it would probably be dismissed by a lot of spacers, I wouldn't mind the prospect of a girl-oriented sci-fi theme featuring minidolls. Elves has done a great job presenting castles and so forth in a detailed and well-rounded way we rarely see in boy-targeted themes, and it'd be nice to see how that kind of design philosophy might work in more of a sci-fi context. I guess there's already Super Hero Girls, but I'd like to see more of an in-house approach.

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21 hours ago, ElectroDiva said:

It was a half-joking flippant anecdote - not a serious analysis of the size of the NK fan base

Try not to trip while you do that back-pedaling. :laugh:

21 hours ago, Aanchir said:

I disagree with those who suspect that kids' interest in castles is so weak that there wouldn't have been any incarnation of LEGO Castle if Nexo Knights hadn't come out.

Based on the observations I've made of the children in my circle (which is anecdotal evidence, so take with a grain of salt), I don't think this is true.  I honestly believe a purely classic castle wave (minifig factions only) would have failed miserably, just like the last pirate wave allegedly did.  The successful toy franchises at the moment (e.g. Pokemon, Minecraft) all have a fantastical element to them.  Nexo Knights attempts to tap into that, but missed the mark slightly.   I don't know why either tbh.

Maybe it was because it underestimated the backlash from the vocal minority.  Maybe it was associated media not being polished enough.  I personally think an important part was the inclusion of trans pieces, which pushed things a bit too far into the dollar-store plastic toy look.  It is popular, but not to Ninjago levels. Why is up to Lego's marketers to figure out.

I will make a prediction though.  This is not the end of the iterative process we have seen.  After Ninjago's accidental runaway success, Lego tried to duplicate it with Chima.  When that did not recapture lightning in a bottle, they took what they learned and came up with NK.  The next "castle" series will be the third iteration of this project to develop another evergreen line.  Those waiting for a return to classic castle are going to be disappointed.

Edited by Kwatchi

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5 hours ago, ElectroDiva said:

 

Can I ask how old they are and what appeals to them about NK?

Mine 5 (girl into friends and elves mainly but she loves Macy) and boy 8. Neighbours kids 8, 9 and 11 (11 year old lives jestro and dressed up as him for Halloween). Friends ages 8-11 too. Why? I think it is the whacky characters and vehicles. They haven't seen the media side, but do occasionally play the game.

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5 hours ago, Aanchir said:

While it would probably be dismissed by a lot of spacers, I wouldn't mind the prospect of a girl-oriented sci-fi theme featuring minidolls. Elves has done a great job presenting castles and so forth in a detailed and well-rounded way we rarely see in boy-targeted themes, and it'd be nice to see how that kind of design philosophy might work in more of a sci-fi context. I guess there's already Super Hero Girls, but I'd like to see more of an in-house approach.

I'd certainly be interested to see what Lego could do for a girl's space theme. Despite the minidolls, if such a theme carries the potential for many new canopy recolors throughout its lifetime, then I'd definitely be on board! :classic:

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Just now, Digger of Bricks said:

I'd certainly be interested to see what Lego could do for a girl's space theme. Despite the minidolls, if such a theme carries the potential for many new canopy recolors throughout its lifetime, then I'd definitely be on board! :classic:

:thumbup: Friends in space could yield some epic sets/parts IMO.

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9 hours ago, Aanchir said:

Agreed.

I agree with your entire post. One-off space or sci-fi sets is something we will continue to see. However, a dedicated in-house Space theme is kind of impossible while SW is around--which will be forever at this rate.

I would also love a Friends-in-Space theme. Elves completely sold me on the possibility of a minidoll theme, and the set designs are some of the best I have seen in recent years. SH girls has a couple of good things going, but I think it is hindered by its license; an original space theme with minidolls could really showcase a lot of creative stories and set designs. I am skeptical it will ever happen, though.

7 hours ago, Kwatchi said:

I will make a prediction though.  This is not the end of the iterative process we have seen.  After Ninjago's accidental runaway success, Lego tried to duplicate it with Chima.  When that did not recapture lightning in a bottle, they took what they learned and came up with NK.  The next "castle" series will be the third iteration of this project to develop another evergreen line.  Those waiting for a return to classic castle are going to be disappointed.

Good point. Chima was obviously an attempt to capture the same success as Ninjago (wasn't it supposed to replace it?) but didn't pan out. NK followed the same vein but I think is still surpassed by Ninjago. I think you are right, and after NK is retired we'll see yet another take on castle. Classic castle? Probably not. The most we could hope for would be an LOTR/Fantasy era styled-theme.

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14 hours ago, Kwatchi said:

Try not to trip while you do that back-pedaling. :laugh:

 

Not back peddling at all. I don't like NK and neither do the kids I know. Based on that (admittedly very small) sample size I find it hard to believe there are many kids out there that do - ymmv. I had thought it was clear that was a personal anecdote

 

13 hours ago, MAB said:

Mine 5 (girl into friends and elves mainly but she loves Macy) and boy 8. Neighbours kids 8, 9 and 11 (11 year old lives jestro and dressed up as him for Halloween). Friends ages 8-11 too. Why? I think it is the whacky characters and vehicles. They haven't seen the media side, but do occasionally play the game.

 

My nephews and niece are about the same age range (5-11) so probably not an age thing.

A few of them have seen the NK cartoons and didn't like them (but love the Ninjago cartoons) 

As others have said, TLG seem to have hit a winning formula with Ninjago and for whatever reason NK doesnt seem to have clicked in the same way.

I personally think if they had made NK a bit more traditional (less outlandish neon colours and sci-fi elements) it may have done better.

7 hours ago, rodiziorobs said:

I think you are right, and after NK is retired we'll see yet another take on castle. Classic castle? Probably not. The most we could hope for would be an LOTR/Fantasy era styled-theme.

 

A LOTR/Fantasy styled theme would be absolutely fine by me. Apparently the old LOTR & Hobbit  movie sets didn't do too well though? I would love to see some sales stats for them

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28 minutes ago, ElectroDiva said:

Apparently the old LOTR & Hobbit  movie sets didn't do too well though? I would love to see some sales stats for them

I'd suggest that this was because it was really dark in tone and not catered towards kids. Seems like Elves does well because it's good humored and of course well designed. Those goblins are really cute evil guys after all. And, let's forget about the prices Lego asks for licensed themes either!

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10 hours ago, rodiziorobs said:

I would also love a Friends-in-Space theme. Elves completely sold me on the possibility of a minidoll theme, and the set designs are some of the best I have seen in recent years. SH girls has a couple of good things going, but I think it is hindered by its license; an original space theme with minidolls could really showcase a lot of creative stories and set designs.

The question is, what would a minidoll space theme look like?

I've heard many people say that Elves is in a way a minidoll castle theme of sorts. So if Elves is to Castle what Friends is to City, what would the look, style, and storyline of a minidoll based space theme be like? Would it have a more realistic, STEM-like approach to sci-fi, or would it more be in the vein of high fantasy like the Elves theme?

Personally, if such a theme took after the colorful look and retro style of the Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon comic strips of the 1930's, then I'd be sold. :moar:

15 hours ago, LegoMonorailFan said:

Friends in space could yield some epic sets/parts IMO.

Given the colorful style of Elves and other minidoll themes, colored canopies would most likely be a given for such a theme! :sweet:

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12 hours ago, rodiziorobs said:

Good point. Chima was obviously an attempt to capture the same success as Ninjago (wasn't it supposed to replace it?) but didn't pan out. NK followed the same vein but I think is still surpassed by Ninjago. I think you are right, and after NK is retired we'll see yet another take on castle. Classic castle? Probably not. The most we could hope for would be an LOTR/Fantasy era styled-theme.

I wouldn’t say Chima fell TOO far short of expectations. Bear in mind that when Chima was being developed, LEGO still had no idea that Ninjago had the makings of an evergreen hit. They would’ve known about its incredible first-year sales, certainly, but not that it would maintain that momentum. I doubt either Chima or Nexo Knights was expected to meet or surpass the level of performance Ninjago ended up demonstrating in the long run.

Also, I don’t think it’s any accident that Nexo Knights often appeals to different tastes than Ninjago does. During Chima’s development, Ninjago was probably assumed to be on its way out, but by the time Nexo Knights came out the designers knew it would have to coexist with Ninjago for probably its entire run. They wouldn’t want to engineer a situation in which they’d just be splitting the audience that already loved Ninjago between it and another theme.

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5 hours ago, kabel said:

I'd suggest that this was because it was really dark in tone and not catered towards kids. Seems like Elves does well because it's good humored and of course well designed. Those goblins are really cute evil guys after all. And, let's forget about the prices Lego asks for licensed themes either!

 

You might have a point there. Some of those LOTR sets did get pretty dark for kids.

How do you know Elves is doing well btw? 

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The only reason why I miss the Castle, Pirate, and Space themes is because of the lack of new minifig prints for these themes. Collectible Minifigs helped supplement the void but with all the upcoming Licensed Collectible Minifigs, it looks like that source is about to dry up as well. Ninjago has had some acceptable "castle" minifigs but so far I am unimpressed with its offerings for 2018. Surprisingly, the only sets I'm looking forward to in 2018 are city sets for the new animal molds. I guess it is a good thing for my wallet. :laugh: So the question for LEGO is, do they really wish to lose the interest of the parents? I don't know if it is the norm, but I've noticed my thoughts about something have an impact on my kids thoughts about it. If I think something is cool, well so do they. If I dislike something, they dislike it as well.

And another thought. Why should the parents spend money on more sets that they have no interest in when the kids themselves are just as content to build their own creations in Lego Worlds with practically unlimited bricks? Personally, I think that it is a long term marketing error to neglect keeping the parents engaged with the products and instead relying solely on the changing whims of children.

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On the Chima vs. Ninjago issue: Chima designs began well before Ninjago got its extension.

There was some rumor that Lego had been trying to acquire the Thundercats license, and that some early production designs were created. Then Hasbro, which already had a toy deal with the company, launched their Kre-O brand, and snagged the building toy license. The internally produced designs are believed to have been repurposed.

In any event, Chima was well into development when Ninjago suddenly became hugely popular. The original plan for Chima to replace Ninjago got abandoned, but the Chima commitment was too far along for it to be completely scrapped. It did better in some parts of Europe than in the US, which is why the last round of big figures didn't get sold in the US.

About the minidolls:

There is such a huge crossover appeal between Friends, Elves and Disney Princesses that the DC minidoll line got green-lighted. Lego likely wanted to do the same with Marvel, but that would have resulted in another legal suit from Hasbro. When Elves finishes its run, I can see a sci-fi minidoll theme, with another anime style cartoon, doing well. A standard minifig Space theme probably won't be back for several more years.

Back on the original topic:

Someone posted earlier about the lead time in a theme's development, and if we get a Castle theme in 2019 (earliest likely), then the concept development could be underway now. I still say that getting away from medieval Europe aesthetics would probably be best. A real Greco-Roman mythology theme, something that has been desired for years, might finally test well enough and not overlap too much with existing production plans.

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Elves is too soft to be a good Castle theme, and Nexo Knights is too futuristic.  A theme right in the middle could do OK.

I think Castle 2013 had a few issues in design, but also being out there next to Tolkien themes didn't do it any favors.  And I think the same is true in reverse, having a Castle theme probably hurt Tolkien sales.

I'd love to see a return to Castle / Kingdoms with the same design and color aesthetics as the Tolkien themes, using new molds and build techniques introduced over the last few years since 2013 Castle and Tolkien were available.

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7 hours ago, Mike S said:

The only reason why I miss the Castle, Pirate, and Space themes is because of the lack of new minifig prints for these themes. Collectible Minifigs helped supplement the void but with all the upcoming Licensed Collectible Minifigs, it looks like that source is about to dry up as well. Ninjago has had some acceptable "castle" minifigs but so far I am unimpressed with its offerings for 2018. Surprisingly, the only sets I'm looking forward to in 2018 are city sets for the new animal molds. I guess it is a good thing for my wallet. :laugh: So the question for LEGO is, do they really wish to lose the interest of the parents? I don't know if it is the norm, but I've noticed my thoughts about something have an impact on my kids thoughts about it. If I think something is cool, well so do they. If I dislike something, they dislike it as well.

And another thought. Why should the parents spend money on more sets that they have no interest in when the kids themselves are just as content to build their own creations in Lego Worlds with practically unlimited bricks? Personally, I think that it is a long term marketing error to neglect keeping the parents engaged with the products and instead relying solely on the changing whims of children.

I think chances are that most parents of KFOLs aren’t AFOLs, so don’t have the same personal vested interest informing their purchases. From my experience, neither of my parents cared about Bionicle, but they never made any attempts to discourage my enjoyment of it. There’s also a phenomenon whereby something often becomes cooler to kids (kids of a certain age, at least) BECAUSE their parents’ generation doesn’t get it. Just look at trends in popular music, or other toy categories for that matter. Do you think Ninja Turtles or Tamagotchis or Pokémon became a craze because grown-ups found them relatable? :tongue:

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