Itaria No Shintaku

"Castle lines never die" or "what made me change my mind and believe in new exciting castle lines".

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1 hour ago, LegoMonorailFan said:

Steampunk performs bad? Wow, that's sad. :cry_sad:

Within the realm of fantasy entertainment, Steampunk has always felt like a small niche style when compared to the powerhouses like medieval fantasy and sci-fi.  I've always thought it was best when subtly integrated into medieval fantasy, rather than trying to be the main attraction by itself.

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The main problem with Steampunk - and many hybrids is that for it to work you need to know the conventions/history that are being twisted. To kids it can be confusing and "stupid". Why would a spaceship have a propeller? Or a sports car have a chimney?! If you are not yet aware of actual history and the timeline of technological breakthroughs then alternative histories can be too weird. Nexo Knights made sense to kids because in a castle setting 'magic' made these things possible. In a world with magic books and spells then of course it would make sense to move your castle around!

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15 minutes ago, Nabii said:

Nexo Knights made sense to kids because in a castle setting 'magic' made these things possible.

To be fair, "magic" can be used as an excuse for ANYTHING in fiction....even the examples you provided as being Steampunk.  Magic isn't exclusive to medieval fantasy fiction.  Harry Potter is a great example of that.

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In all honesty, I think if Lego were to produce a medieval fantasy real-time strategy game and have sets based on it, a medieval castle theme could become very marketable.

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Hei Folks, I just stumbled into this discussion by accident, since I am more related to train in general.

But reading your pros and cons on different castel-themes awakened some very old memorys from my own Childhood.

Back in the 80ths, I got the fabulous Classic Castle 6080. That was realy great stuff by that time. With the movable walls and the option to enlarge the castle by simple connect additional wall or building segments to it.

I played quite a lot with this set. But since my parents could´nt afford more than now and then a small Lego Set on christmas or birthday, my castle did not grow as big and as fast as I wished. On the other hand, I had the also fabulous Idea book 250, with so many suggestions for additional buildings. So I started building my own Stuff. By that, my need for grey bricks increased dramatically, while the availability did not. But I was happy with it.

Then the dark Ages raised.

Finally, in 2007, I started again with Lego. And I was very impressed about the amount of available Parts. Greens and browns had been very rare in the old times, now even former unknown colors like orange, light blue or lime appear, and all of them were only a mouse-klick away.

Today I do, like I always did more than 30 years ago. I inspect every new catalouge for new and unknown parts. And then I start to imagine what I can build with them. Doing like this, every new Set is welcome.

I can´t remember a better time then now to get any part you need in the amount you need. OMG, that have been one of my biggest dreams in my childhood, just go to BrickLink, ebay or even TLC itself to oder any part I would like to have.

Looking back to my beloved Classic Castle 6080, it would look poor and somewhat ashaming beneath all the great, huge, astonishing Castle-MOC´s you can find out there on the Internet today. But it was my very own "best Set you can ever imagine" by that time.

 

So if you complain about the absence of your favorite Set today, please remember how it was back in your childhood.

We AFOL´s must not fit into TLC´s targeted audience! But we can take out any benefit we need from any new Set we got by just choosing all the parts we want to build our own, most favoured, set.

But this is only my own opinion. Anyway, never stop building

 

Kind regards

 

BrickMusher

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9 hours ago, Nabii said:

for example so far steampunk performs terribly

I think my heart just broke a little; not that I am surprised, especially with the reasons Nabii explained, but bad news is bad news even when you expect it.

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7 hours ago, SerenityInFire said:

In all honesty, I think if Lego were to produce a medieval fantasy real-time strategy game and have sets based on it, a medieval castle theme could become very marketable.

You're kind of describing Lego Battles. Well, a third of it anyway. :P

Though honestly that sounds like a terrible way to market a theme. Real-time strategy is hardly the biggest genre of video game, let alone the most popular or accessible within Lego's general target demographic of young kids. And I don't think video games generally have THAT much impact on driving sales in the first place. Sure, they can supplement it, as Nexo Knights and several other themes have proven. But if a certain type of theme just isn't testing well with kids, I doubt the expense of trying to MAKE it popular with a video game would be worth it compared to just sticking with the concepts that test better in the first place.

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9 hours ago, Nabii said:

The main problem with Steampunk - and many hybrids is that for it to work you need to know the conventions/history that are being twisted. To kids it can be confusing and "stupid". Why would a spaceship have a propeller? Or a sports car have a chimney?! If you are not yet aware of actual history and the timeline of technological breakthroughs then alternative histories can be too weird. Nexo Knights made sense to kids because in a castle setting 'magic' made these things possible. In a world with magic books and spells then of course it would make sense to move your castle around!

So the magic powers the technology?  I guess I never really got that it wasn't just technology.  At least on the side of the knights.  And subtly additions of steampunk could work well in a fantasy environment, just don't go overboard.  No need to have propeller spaceships in a fantasy Castle genre (I know, it was just an example).

8 hours ago, SerenityInFire said:

In all honesty, I think if Lego were to produce a medieval fantasy real-time strategy game and have sets based on it, a medieval castle theme could become very marketable.

No!  Turn-based!  I can't stand real-time strategy!

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11 hours ago, Nabii said:

Concepts and new themes at LEGO are not created by marketing, they are created by Designers. We draw and build and test extensively, and you are right, hybrid concepts often fail, (for example so far steampunk performs terribly). But NEXO Knights outperformed all other concepts including tradition Space and Castle ideas. Marketing people are involved from very early on only to help figure out ways to communicate the themes, and sometimes to figure out ways to explain new play types, like the shield scanning in Nexo Knights

 

Thanks for correcting that misconception - I had (incorrectly) assumed major new concepts these days were marketing led. It is refreshing to hear that TLG is still a design centred company when it comes to new products (even though there is the occasional miss :)

 

11 hours ago, Nabii said:

we produce as many AFOL sets at the moment as we believe the market can sustain. I too would be happy with an AFOL space set, castle set or pirate set as regularly as we get modulars, but so long as modulars, world icons, Star Wars and fairground rides are selling as well as they and seem to be keeping many of our long time adult fans *interested in the brand' so it's hard to justify doing something without a track record. (I know this sucks, I'd love to do a Shop At Home Space or more Castle sets - and who knows maybe one day I'll get that chance, just don't hold your breath for it.)

 

I agree the AFOL sets TLG already produce (SW, Modulars, Fairground etc) keep a big chunk of your AFOLs interested in the brand (myself included), but there are a *lot* of castle/space/pirates/train fans - probably enough to make releasing one Shop@Home set for each of those themes  each year commercially attractive.

 

I won't hold my breath, but it would be awesome to see TLG try this one year. 

 

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1 hour ago, ElectroDiva said:

I agree the AFOL sets TLG already produce (SW, Modulars, Fairground etc) keep a big chunk of your AFOLs interested in the brand (myself included), but there are a *lot* of castle/space/pirates/train fans - probably enough to make releasing one Shop@Home set for each of those themes  each year commercially attractive.

Or even to cycle through those themes year to year would be a huge win.

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10 hours ago, Nabii said:

The main problem with Steampunk - and many hybrids is that for it to work you need to know the conventions/history that are being twisted. To kids it can be confusing and "stupid". Why would a spaceship have a propeller? Or a sports car have a chimney?! If you are not yet aware of actual history and the timeline of technological breakthroughs then alternative histories can be too weird. Nexo Knights made sense to kids because in a castle setting 'magic' made these things possible. In a world with magic books and spells then of course it would make sense to move your castle around!

Sorry to be another person responding to this.

The problem with Steampunk is that Kids rarely have the basic understanding of technology and history to make that mental leap to accept such a world (and to see the play of humor/irony or even collness in it...if done right). But i see no reason why kids shouldn't accept something like a dwarven airship, medieval vehicle powered by steam, or even Submarine (oh wait....). Maybe kids just don't like that concept anyway (but at the same time something like Nexo Knights is not "stupid"? :wink:), i see no reason why an older audience should think the same.

Ok, i'm not trying to promote some Steampunk theme anyway, but some elements have already been made in the past (like set 7040 or 7041 for example, not to mention various sets from other themes, like ninjago or chima). On the other hand i have no idea how well Castle Fantasy line performed ($$$) anyway, so it's hard to make any assumtions whatsoever. To me Steampunk is already a niche type of fantasy, which can very, very easy look rediculus. So if someone would be forced to incorporate steampunk elements into a Set, i think it should be made very subtile and first and foremost in the right context (like fantasy or Leonardo DaVinci style inventions) to make it more tolerable for a bigger audience. (I can perfectly understand why most ppl. don't want spaceships with propellers or sports cars with chimney, i'm not a fan of such nonsense myself, TBH)

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3 hours ago, ElectroDiva said:

I agree the AFOL sets TLG already produce (SW, Modulars, Fairground etc) keep a big chunk of your AFOLs interested in the brand (myself included), but there are a *lot* of castle/space/pirates/train fans - probably enough to make releasing one Shop@Home set for each of those themes  each year commercially attractive.

 

For me, it's not as much the theme as it is the quality of the build.  I would buy a Modular Space or Pirates set, despite not being that interested in those themes.  I would probably buy multiple copies of Castle or Train Modulars, as I am interested in these.

 

I wonder if marketing has taken into account the buying power of the (probably) fewer AFOLs compared to kids.  In the last 3 years, I have bought more Legos than I did from 1980-2000.  That is because I have a real job and multiple times more disposable income than I did when I was a kid and then going through my dark ages.  Thus, 20 years of being a kid is replaced by 3 years of my adult Lego consumption, a 6.6:1 ratio.  Maybe there's 10x more kids than AFOLs, but something to consider.

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7 hours ago, ElectroDiva said:

I agree the AFOL sets TLG already produce (SW, Modulars, Fairground etc) keep a big chunk of your AFOLs interested in the brand (myself included), but there are a *lot* of castle/space/pirates/train fans - probably enough to make releasing one Shop@Home set for each of those themes  each year commercially attractive.
 

 

Well for Space, they did the Exosuit, apparently a poor seller based on the discounts given by lego themselves, and Benny's Spaceship, a better seller as it was wanted by kids too on the back of TLM. The sales of the Exosuit may have indicated that there isn't that much interest in slightly more adult oriented classic space sets.

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16 hours ago, Grover said:

I wonder if marketing has taken into account the buying power of the (probably) fewer AFOLs compared to kids.  In the last 3 years, I have bought more Legos than I did from 1980-2000.  That is because I have a real job and multiple times more disposable income than I did when I was a kid and then going through my dark ages.  Thus, 20 years of being a kid is replaced by 3 years of my adult Lego consumption, a 6.6:1 ratio.  Maybe there's 10x more kids than AFOLs, but something to consider.

 

Good point but I guess the problem is how can TLG quantify the size of the AFOL market?

 

If you buy through Shop@Home TLG probably profile you based on the sorts of sets you buy - but if you're a typical AFOL, you're only going to be buying D2C sets from there 

 

Take train fans for example. The train sets and accessories out there at the moment aren't S@H exclusives, and with the discounts available elsewhere - most people will be buying those through other channels -> from TLG's perspective it looks like there is no AFOL market for trains

 

12 hours ago, MAB said:

Well for Space, they did the Exosuit, apparently a poor seller based on the discounts given by lego themselves, and Benny's Spaceship, a better seller as it was wanted by kids too on the back of TLM. The sales of the Exosuit may have indicated that there isn't that much interest in slightly more adult oriented classic space sets.

 

I can't really explain that set - it was well executed but a bit limited in scope

Edited by ElectroDiva

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As discussed, eventual discounts do not necessarily = poor seller. The Exosuit also got a lot of good press, which is a nice intangible benefit that shouldn't be ignored.

Seems to me that there is plenty of room for experimentation as far as that kind of thing goes. A 200-300 piece experiment set with some new heraldry but no new molds would be a low-risk chance to gauge interest. If it was even halfway-decent, I know I'd be in. It wouldn't even have to be something as novel as a MMV. Rehash the old joust like 6083, re-color the latest CMF king and queen and give us knights with new heraldry and everybody would freak out in the best kind of way. It'd also be an outstanding nod to the 40 years of Castle.

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I see a number of posts that make assumptions about disposable income, and large, high cost sets. For myself, I haven't ever bought a set in that price range, and am not likely ever to do so.

The ideal would be an actual line of sets that can hold the favor of both children and AFOLs. It will take time, effort, and a significant budget to do it right. Here's hoping TLG gives our discussion, and others, serious consideration.

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Just now, gedren_y said:

I see a number of posts that make assumptions about disposable income, and large, high cost sets. For myself, I haven't ever bought a set in that price range, and am not likely ever to do so.

The ideal would be an actual line of sets that can hold the favor of both children and AFOLs. It will take time, effort, and a significant budget to do it right. Here's hoping TLG gives our discussion, and others, serious consideration.

I think we would all prefer that. Any suggestion aside from that is grasping at straws with the understanding that something is better than nothing.

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22 hours ago, x105Black said:

No!  Turn-based!  I can't stand real-time strategy!

Gosh, that reminds me of how I kind of wish there were a Nexo Knights themed game styled after the Fire Emblem series, as opposed to the simple action game we got. I feel like the theme's structure (a small selection of distinct knight characters with discrete weapon types up against hordes of diverse but nameless enemy soldiers) would fit well into that sort of game formula. Plus, I'd love to command cute sprites of the various knights. :wub:

Of course, that sort of loops back into what I was saying before—I doubt a game like that would necessarily be as successful with kids as the simple, high-adrenaline action game we ended up getting.

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2 hours ago, SirBlake said:

As discussed, eventual discounts do not necessarily = poor seller. The Exosuit also got a lot of good press, which is a nice intangible benefit that shouldn't be ignored.

Seems to me that there is plenty of room for experimentation as far as that kind of thing goes. A 200-300 piece experiment set with some new heraldry but no new molds would be a low-risk chance to gauge interest. If it was even halfway-decent, I know I'd be in. It wouldn't even have to be something as novel as a MMV. Rehash the old joust like 6083, re-color the latest CMF king and queen and give us knights with new heraldry and everybody would freak out in the best kind of way. It'd also be an outstanding nod to the 40 years of Castle.

Give the King and Queen the classic 1978 purple with gold crown color scheme and you've got a winner on even more levels.

1 hour ago, gedren_y said:

I see a number of posts that make assumptions about disposable income, and large, high cost sets. For myself, I haven't ever bought a set in that price range, and am not likely ever to do so.

The ideal would be an actual line of sets that can hold the favor of both children and AFOLs. It will take time, effort, and a significant budget to do it right. Here's hoping TLG gives our discussion, and others, serious consideration.

True, many are talking about that.  I've been talking about that.  I've also thrown out ideas for a much more scaled back, low risk solution (Battle Packs and Brick Bins) that would be much more affordable and suitable for any age.  I wonder if Nabii could tell us how viable that approach is.

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To keep this very interesting discussion as readable as possible, could you please refrain from quoting large walls of text. If you want to quote a long message, you can remove all or part of the text. Thank you.

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10 hours ago, SirBlake said:

As discussed, eventual discounts do not necessarily = poor seller. The Exosuit also got a lot of good press, which is a nice intangible benefit that shouldn't be ignored.

 

 

Did it? I don't recall that much. LEGO did a lot of press (video reveals etc) for LEGO fans but not much outside of the normal fan base. Whereas at the same time, Research Institute got tons of national and international press, completely overshadowing the Exosuit.

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15 hours ago, gedren_y said:

I see a number of posts that make assumptions about disposable income, and large, high cost sets. For myself, I haven't ever bought a set in that price range, and am not likely ever to do so.

I agree.  While those sets are always neat to think about, they are mega-impractical for a wide majority of people (even AFOL's).  Since becoming an adult and getting out of my "dark ages", I have not bought a single set that was over $100, let alone the $200-500 range.  I just can't justify that sort of spending with my disposable income.  I have other hobbies I need to support as well, and Lego isn't my "main" hobby.  However, if there were lots of sets in the $10-50 range, I could justify several of those.  And if there was a really special set that was $100+, I might consider it.....but I wouldn't even come close to touching the $200-500 price range.  It just isn't going to happen, no matter how cool and desirable the set is.

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14 hours ago, thetang22 said:

I agree.  While those sets are always neat to think about, they are mega-impractical for a wide majority of people (even AFOL's).  Since becoming an adult and getting out of my "dark ages", I have not bought a single set that was over $100, let alone the $200-500 range.  I just can't justify that sort of spending with my disposable income.  I have other hobbies I need to support as well, and Lego isn't my "main" hobby.  However, if there were lots of sets in the $10-50 range, I could justify several of those.  And if there was a really special set that was $100+, I might consider it.....but I wouldn't even come close to touching the $200-500 price range.  It just isn't going to happen, no matter how cool and desirable the set is.

Same here. As you said large sets are nice to look at, more complex and "better" in general, they are also really (i mean REALLY) expensive to buy more than one, if any (speaking about my person only).

As some have already mentioned, i too would prefer a nice castle theme with several (preferable modular) sets. The advantage of this would be that we would be able to choose what set and tone we want to follow (like a castle or village, tournament or adventure for example.). So i think even a smaller line would be preferable over one huge expensive set. (sorry for my bad english today, i hope i could make my point understandable.)

For example back the i would have LOVED to buy the turnament set (10223), but at that time it was simply impossible to spare the money for it (yeah, i know it's miserable, but RL got in the way.) Maybe it was a bad example but if it would have been several smaller sets, like the gatehouse (the towers), the auxillery buildings and the joust with the tribune, it would have made much more sense to me.

 

Edited by Murrig Icehammer

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People have different budgets I guess. 

 

Personally, most of the new stuff that interests me these days is >150 EUR/USD (and that's what I spend most of my Lego budget of circa 2k a year on).

 

Recently there hasn't been enough new stuff to interest me so I've been filling up on secondary market sets from my dark ages at exhorbitant prices (most recently the Green Grocer modular for £800 which was daylight robbery!!). Going off on a tangent for a second *i wish* TLG would offer the ability to buy one off copies of older sets for a premium (I'd happily pay 2* the original price adjusted for inflation)

 

Anyway, in an ideal world, I would spend my 2k budget as follows:

1.5k on 6-8 * D2C/ UCS sets (1 each of Modular, Train, Castle, Pirates, Star Wars and Technic and 1-2 from DC/Marvel)

0.5k+ on minifig series, ideas sets and random sets from various other themes 

 

It would be really interesting to see a survey of the AFOLs here and their total annual spend on Lego and what they spend the majority of that budget on - i.e. :

-sub 50 EUR/USD "basic sets"

-50-150 EUR/USD "premium sets"

->150 EUR/USD "D2C/Expert/UCS" type sets  

 

Some forums have the ability to create polls but I can't see that here. Maybe a friendly mod could help with that? 

 

 

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I'm in the camp with ElectroDiva.  I don't know for sure, but I'd guess I spend $1.5-2k/year on Lego, almost all of it on the large creator sets.  Sure, if something is on super-sale or looks really awesome on the small price range (like the snow plow did the other year), I will pick it up, and I get the CMFs that interest me, but for the most part, it's the large sets.

I would also like to say, I am interested to buy my first Ninjago set ever, the new large modular coming up in September.  Not to build it, as I doubt I'll ever do that, but for parts.  It's got a lot of great parts I'm interested in for my own medieval MOCs, so I'm going to get it as a parts set.  Usually there's too many parts that are not useful to me (this is particularly true of Nexo Knights, where 99% of the pieces are uninteresting to me) in my building, but this particular set has some great trans tiles, browns, and interesting shades of colors.  I'll probably keep the town minis and give away the Ninjas.

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