Scale Modeling General Discussion

[Lasse D]

We seem to have moved fragments of the discussion to individual MOC threads. I personally prefer to discuss it in here. "When is a MOC a scale model" is what is currently being discussed. Some argue that certain scales are simply too small for you to make a proper scale model. I reply that the object being modelled will then become the determining factor. Case in point. A Hummer can be built in a very small scale (1:40 I recon) while my 1:20 Le Mans prototypes might be pushing it even theough they are much larger.

It is mentioned that blueprints, or something similar showing that you really strive for the best accuracy, would make a great impact on wether a MOC is a scale model or not. That would make it hard for cityscape builders to qualify.

And finally there are the subjects that we don't really want to discuss: What about people who don't have the best part selection, patience, or experience to improve a model: When is a model "worthy"? I don't like dragging other people in, so I will take some examples from my own collection.

 

Suppose someone first posted this Scania R-series in scale 1:25:

It would qualify as a scale model and be posted in here ince it most accurately follows the blueprints for this particular model.

 

Then another poster submits the following model at a later time. Same scale. Same truck. but inferior building techniques, part selection and it is clear that much less time has been spent designing it:

Is it still a "Scale Model"? Should it be excluded since the better model was submitted first? Should it be excluded once a better model s submitted?

 

My answers to that last row are resounding Yes, No, Hell no!

But we have to be clear about this. Inclusiveness has been mentioned. But for this to work we also need to point to consistent rules saying why a model is OK or whjy it is not. Right now there are topics which are being moved around, but it is not done consistently.

[lcvisser]

I've been thinking about this question since the two cars (I'm assuming you're referring to the Corvette and Aston) were posted. I haven't posted anything in this forum yet, because I'm doubting since long time if my WIP MOC belongs here. So the issue is relevant for me, and I thus have an opinion on it (but feel free to ignore it ).

@Lasse D, I understand from your post that topics should not be excluded or included based on the builders skill level. I would agree with that, because it would make this forum an elitist subforum. I doubt that is the goal. Also, from the two models you posted, I deduce that artistic freedom should also be allowed, e.g.: the fifth wheel on the first model is clearly out of scale, but the rest of the truck is accurately modeled. Also, for example @2LegoOrNot2Lego...'s trucks are not always accurately modelled after a real truck, but instead inspired.

So I would argue that a topic in this forum should fulfil at least two criteria:

• It must be clear explicitly what the scale of the model is, e.g. 1:20, 1:30.
• It must be clear what the model represents
  • Artistic freedom is allowed, but it must be clear what are the deviations.

With this, we would have objective criteria that the topic can be evaluated against.

Just my 2 cents 

[Erik Leppen]

On Friday, July 14, 2017 at 0:54 PM, Lasse D said:

Is it still a "Scale Model"?

Well, is it a model of something in a certain scale? I say that is the criterium. Whether or not the modeled thing is real or fsntasy (e.g. something from a movie). As long as it has pictures, blueprints etc. that can be scaled.

Whether it is a good scale model, is another question (I say it is, by the way). But quality standards are inherently a slippery slope. A bad scale model us also a scale model  and should therefore be allowed. The model's quality can be discussed in its topic.

[curtquarquesso]

If I am working on a scale model, and I am looking for feedback, or suggestions on building techniques, where should I post a topic?

[Milan]

On 10/6/2017 at 12:09 AM, curtquarquesso said:

If I am working on a scale model, and I am looking for feedback, or suggestions on building techniques, where should I post a topic?

It depends on how do you plan to build it. If you are using guidelines from this forum:

• Representing a real world counterpart
• Built in scale
• Built as advanced Model Team, mainly with bricks, plates and tiles.
• Not purely Technic

Then by all means you should post it here.

If your model is going to be more Technicly, then you should post it to the Technic forum.

Regarding feedback, you should get them in any forum.

[curtquarquesso]

On 10/7/2017 at 4:09 AM, Milan said:

It depends on how do you plan to build it. If you are using guidelines from this forum:

• Representing a real world counterpart
• Built in scale
• Built as advanced Model Team, mainly with bricks, plates and tiles.
• Not purely Technic

Then by all means you should post it here.
If your model is going to be more Technicly, then you should post it to the Technic forum.
Regarding feedback, you should get them in any forum.

• Representing a real world counterpart
  • Check
• Built in scale
  • Not sure what the scale it will be just yet.
• Built as advanced Model Team, mainly with bricks, plates and tiles.
  • Hmm... Not so much. 
  • Techniques will probably include curves, SNOT, and more 'modern' techniques.
• Not purely Technic
  • Check

Is there a topic that I can share to that's really geared towards non-fictitious spaceflight? 
Thanks for the reply. :)

[Milan]

On 10/9/2017 at 4:49 PM, curtquarquesso said:

• Not sure what the scale it will be just yet.

It does not matter what scale your model is, as long as it is a scale model.

EDIT: we have introduced minimum scale requirement. 1:20 is the vehicles minimum scale that can enter the SMF.

 

On 10/9/2017 at 4:49 PM, curtquarquesso said:

Is there a topic that I can share to that's really geared towards non-fictitious spaceflight?

Well, if it is a scale model, then by all means, post it here. If it could fit better in some other forum, I'll move it there in no time

Edited October 12, 2017 by Milan
New minimum scale requirement added.

[Milan]

Hey guys!

Thank you all for your input regarding this discussion. 

We have concluded that there will be minimum scale as one of the requirements for a model to be in this forum.

Minimum scale will be around 1:20 (approximately Miniland Scale).

Ships, planes, and buildings does not have minimum scale requirement, but still have to follow Scale Model Guidelines:

• Representing a real world counterpart
• Built in scale
• Built as advanced Model Team, mainly with bricks, plates and tiles, with high level of details and prime execution. 

[lcvisser]

20 hours ago, Milan said:

Minimum scale will be around 1:20 (approximately Miniland Scale).

So the actual Model Team-like models, cf. the Highway Rig, are excluded? I believe those are around 1:30... Bummer 

[Milan]

34 minutes ago, Ludo Visser said:

So the actual Model Team-like models, cf. the Highway Rig, are excluded?

That is correct.

Model Team like vehicles will stay in LEGO Technic, Mindstorms & Model Team forum, we did not want to separate them from their home forum.

 

[Lasse D]

I'm glad you are calling them guidelines rather than strict rules. Still. The "Prime execution" criteria seems like a rather vague. Can we get a clarification of what this entails?

My own models seem to skirt these guidelines quite a lot. Here are some examples:

 

This old Oshkosh is excluded due to the scale (1:30) just as mentioned above. When I designed it I chose this scale specifically because the wheels and windscreens offered back then were the best fit for the model. Had I built in Scale 1:20 or above, then there would have been no windscreen and the wheels would have been less authentic:

 

All my "normal" trucks, like the recent DAF are similarly a bit too small (1:25):

But let's for argument's sake say that 1:25 is close enough to 1:20 for it to be OK. How about this:

The front and chassis is a scaled MAN TGS 8x4 in scale 1:25, but the barrel and the rear mechanism has been changed quite a bit to allow for play functions. Would this be allowed? And what about the exposed battery box? That's totally out of scale.

 

Here we have a Bell Long Ranger. Scale 1:25 is OK since it is an (non-fixed wing) "airplane":

But what if we put a 1:25 scale Ranger on top of a 1:25 scale helicopter trailer and a 1:25 scale truck? One model fulfills the Scale Subforum criteria (helicopter), one does not (truck) and the trailer I'm not sure about.

I don't envy the moderators one bit! :D

[Milan]

6 hours ago, Lasse D said:

The "Prime execution" criteria seems like a rather vague. Can we get a clarification of what this entails?

Sure.

It means we want your absolute best, while following the SMF guidelines.

 

6 hours ago, Lasse D said:

My own models seem to skirt these guidelines quite a lot.

Many will agree that your models are (one of) the best in Model Team size/range. That's why it is fair for them to be in Model Team forum. Not that they do not belong in SMF (other than scale). We had to draw a line somewhere. And since we already have a developed Model Team forum, we decided to keep Model Team sized vehicles there.

 

6 hours ago, Lasse D said:

The front and chassis is a scaled MAN TGS 8x4 in scale 1:25, but the barrel and the rear mechanism has been changed quite a bit to allow for play functions. Would this be allowed? And what about the exposed battery box? That's totally out of scale.

Since it is not in 1:20 limit, it would have to go to the Model Team forum.

About the not-in-scale barrel/back section: SMF models should concentrate more on look, then on play functions. Adding (motorized) play functions usually means adding motors/receivers/batteries, which takes valuable space, and quite often, can degrade the overall look.  

 

6 hours ago, Lasse D said:

But what if we put a 1:25 scale Ranger on top of a 1:25 scale helicopter trailer and a 1:25 scale truck? One model fulfills the Scale Subforum criteria (helicopter), one does not (truck) and the trailer I'm not sure about.

 

6 hours ago, Lasse D said:

I don't envy the moderators one bit!

Me neither! :P

[WvG_853]

I’m not a scale modeler, but I follow the creations here with much interest. I think the introduction of a minimul scale leads to an arbitrary separation of models and above all builders. A forum is a community. Why force someone to post in another forum when his buddies or people whose opinion he values are in this forum? Just because the Forum is called today “Technic, Mindstorms and Model Team forum”? What prevents you from creating a “Scale modeling and Model Team Forum” and a “Technic and Mindstorms Forum”. Just my two cents ...

[Ron Dayes]

On 16.10.2017 at 10:41 PM, WvG_853 said:

I’m not a scale modeler, but I follow the creations here with much interest. I think the introduction of a minimul scale leads to an arbitrary separation of models and above all builders. A forum is a community. Why force someone to post in another forum when his buddies or people whose opinion he values are in this forum? Just because the Forum is called today “Technic, Mindstorms and Model Team forum”? What prevents you from creating a “Scale modeling and Model Team Forum” and a “Technic and Mindstorms Forum”. Just my two cents ...

i can totally relate, now i need to post in Town forum despite the fact that my creations clearly arent "town". Just seems to me that large scales are the winner here out of tradition. But well, if that is what the community demands i wont bother stirring it up any further. its just sad that a "scale" forum was announced and now its excluding actual scales just cause it seems unplausible to build any smaller than people being used to...

[Beck]

I have the same sentiments as @Ron Dayes. I worked very hard to scale Liebherr R956 Excavator to 1:47, but could not be posted in the scale modeling forum since it is smaller than 1:20.

The only viable solution in my opinion would be to create a Scale modeling sub-forum for scales below 1:20. Although one might argue that it is best suited for the town forum, the feedback and interaction of topics for small vehicles is minimal to non-existent. From what I have observed, the town forum has narrowed its range of engaging topics to layouts and buildings. 

Edited November 16, 2017 by Beck

[Ron Dayes]

51 minutes ago, Beck said:

I have the same sentiments as @Ron Dayes. I worked very hard to scale Liebherr R956 Excavator to 1:47, but could not be posted in the scale modeling forum since it is smaller than 1:20.

The only viable solution in my opinion would be to create a Scale modeling sub-forum for scales below 1:20. Although one might argue that it is best suited for the town forum, the feedback and interaction of topics for small vehicles is minimal to non-existent. From what I have observed, the town forum has narrowed its range of engaging topics to layouts and buildings. 

Nice liebherr!

That sub forum would be quite something, allthough i doubt that they ever consider opening it for a handfull of people. Furthermore i also noticed in Town forum the main interaction is about buildings and town layouts themselves (like you stated), not cars or vehicles on their own. So that kinda puts us in the refugee list of certain interests. Perhaps special themes despite it being also everything else?
its just a bummer since it literally is a scale model, yet where to place it, right? Not everything below 1/20 has minifig relevance and equals town imo.
maybe smaller scales just need some time and more users, perhaps then it might be up for discussion (i hope).

So long, see you in town ;)

PS: i believe your work has eventually paid of for you despite not being able to post it, perhaps join us small scalers on flickr for the time being? We do give quite some feedback there...

Edited November 16, 2017 by Ron Dayes

[lcvisser]

On 12-10-2017 at 12:26 AM, Milan said:

We have concluded that there will be minimum scale as one of the requirements for a model to be in this forum.

Minimum scale will be around 1:20 (approximately Miniland Scale).

Either don't make the rule, or be consistent... 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Ludo Visser

[Milan]

11 minutes ago, Ludo Visser said:

Either don't make the rule, or be consistent... 

Thanks Ludo for pointing that out. Yes, sometimes, there could be a slip.
Also, next time, can we please have a bit more friendlier tone? So far we solved everything in a friendly manner.
Or, you can use the report button.

Thanks again, i will move the topic to the appropriate forum.

[lcvisser]

On 8-12-2017 at 10:42 PM, Milan said:

Also, next time, can we please have a bit more friendlier tone? So far we solved everything in a friendly manner.

My apologies, I didn't mean it to be in an unfriendly manner.

[Milan]

Thanks, Ludo. I did not mean to sound unfriendly, neither

Have fun!

[Jim]

I have created a Pinned and Locked topic, stating our zero-tolerance policy for clone brands:

 

[Edwin Korstanje]

Thanks Jim.

[Ashi Valkoinen]

From "Index" topic:

"Vehicles must be built in minimum scale of around 1:20."

So 1:45 scaled train replicas don't play here?

[Lasse D]

Is this forum still moderated, or have the rules changed?

[Jim]

54 minutes ago, Lasse D said:

Is this forum still moderated, or have the rules changed?

Milan is on leave of absence, so there's no active moderation. We react on reports.