Should Lego use Dry Transfer or Water Slide Decals?

[xboxtravis7992]

With the reveal of the new UCS Snowspeeder today, I saw a lot of people complaining about the inclusion of so many stickers. I began to think about it, and found it a bit strange how the Lego community so adamantly hates stickers, since in other modeling communities decals are common place and accepted parts of the model building process. I've had some model kits before which include stickers and water slide decals, and choosing either or is optional. While it could be argued that water slide decals or dry transfer decals are even more difficult to apply than stickers, when done properly the results are spectacular and can even be made to like as if the decal was "printed." While Lego is obviously meant for kids and probably won't embrace more complex decal sheets, would having them as an option be something AFOL's would want to see? I am pretty sure plenty of Lego customizers are using them already, but I mean having decals such as dry transfer or water slide in official sets as an option for a more professional look than a sticker. I don't know if they would withstand rough play, but for an AFOL looking to display the model, they would be a great alternative.

For those who don't know what a dry transfer decal or a water slide decal is, here are some examples of how they work:

Dry transfer: http://www.ghostofzeon.com/diy/drytrans/dry.html

Water slide: http://www.model-train-tips.com/blog/57/the-art-of-applying-decals/

Thoughts?

[Aethersprite]

I think that for UCS sets, they're a viable option. Maybe Lego could include both a sticker sheet and a sheet of dry transfers, for us to choose between them. I know from personal experience that dry transfers are difficult to apply (water slides even more so) and easier to screw up than stickers, so there are people out there who would definitely prefer stickers. But having the option would be nice! 

[Littleworlds]

I think that if people would want to use these kind of decals (and confront themselves with the increased difficulty applying them), they would probably have went into model kits in the first place. Ordinary stickers are already tedious enough for many builders (including me) that everything beyond them would just create unnecessary obstacles. Especially for more casual builders. And I think TLG wants to keep its products easy accessible across the range, so the ideal lego set in my opinion doesn't comes with stickers at all and a nicely and crisp printed piece is just enjoyable to have and to look at.

[Capparezza]

I guess the problem is not the amount of stickers, but the problem that those LEGO stickers tend to peel up or start to dissolve themselves after some time. For a collectors model, this is just plain horror.

So, yeah, dry / water transfer stickers might be a viable solution for collector sets. But loads of "standard" LEGO stickers are a defnitive no-go.

[dr_spock]

LEGO stickers seem to vary.  I have sets with the stickers on for over 30 years and they are fine.  I have some sets from 2009 and those stickers are cracking and flaking off. 

Adding more options to a set would increase the costs.

 

[Stash2Sixx]

19 hours ago, Littleworlds said:

I think that if people would want to use these kind of decals (and confront themselves with the increased difficulty applying them), they would probably have went into model kits in the first place.

I disagree.  I have been using and applying both water slide and dry transfers for a few years now.  I use them for trains, city, and military LEGO MOCs.  I have found water slides easier to use than dry transfers.  Water slide gives you a lil bit of room to work with and readjust if needs be.  Once dry transfer is down, it's down!  Unless you scratch it off.  In fact at work, I encourage people to use water slides on their MOCs.  We run workshops every few weeks for those that want to learn to apply them.

I do agree though that they want to keep things as simple as possible, and therefore we have the printed sticker sheets, which crack and peel off in a few years.

Printing costs money, just look at custom printed figs.  Although for the amount that LEGO would produce...  

[Littleworlds]

54 minutes ago, Stash2Sixx said:

I disagree.  I have been using and applying both water slide and dry transfers for a few years now.  I use them for trains, city, and military LEGO MOCs.  I have found water slides easier to use than dry transfers.  Water slide gives you a lil bit of room to work with and readjust if needs be.  Once dry transfer is down, it's down!  Unless you scratch it off.  In fact at work, I encourage people to use water slides on their MOCs.  We run workshops every few weeks for those that want to learn to apply them.

I do agree though that they want to keep things as simple as possible, and therefore we have the printed sticker sheets, which crack and peel off in a few years.

Printing costs money, just look at custom printed figs.  Although for the amount that LEGO would produce...  

I see you points. I think though that the vast majority of UCS buyer are more casual builders still, who are looking for a cool Lego set to put on display from time to time. About printing: yes its expensive and the results are sometimes not great when it comes to curved surfaces. But indeed: economy of scale helps in that regard 

As for how long stickers live today I can't really say much. My dark ages are not so long ago, so I can't really say how well 10 year old stickers last. I encountered however some stickers from the 80s still sticking pretty well my bricks from my old collection. Maybe its a matter of storage. An assembled model is more exposed to light of course. And its possible that they use different glue today, no idea really.

I don't argue that water slide or dry transfers would stick on better, though my attempts with water slide ones (long ago) weren't so glorious. Gosh no. Rather messy really... 

[makoy]

While I agree the water slide decal is easier to apply than the dry one, it's is definitely NOT as simple as just sticking the normal stickers that are provided in the LEGO sets right now.

On the argument that printing on bricks cost money -- so does printing on stickers. However, the process involved in printing on bricks is definitely more process-intensive than just printing on a sticker sheet. If TLG will streamline their process to print only on bricks I am sure the price will not be as 'expensive' as other folks will claim. It is just a conscious decision that TLG made because they believe, based on their studies, that kids enjoy the experience of putting stickers or asking their parents to put that sticker when they can't do it properly (this has some truth to it because I have a son who likes to put stickers on almost everything).... Now, if you the product is aimed at 10-year-old kids and above, it better be printed because I don't believe that kids at that age still enjoy putting on stickers. 

As a kid, I don't have a recollection of putting any stickers on my sets... so I believe that the sets I buy for my kids should not have stickers as well. It's not a question of how professional it looks but why do kids have to endure putting a sticker that they could not stick on or align properly. It's actually heartbreaking when I see a set that my son made and all the stickers are all crooked.

[Littleworlds]

1 minute ago, makoy said:

It is just a conscious decision that TLG made because they believe, based on their studies, that kids enjoy the experience of putting stickers or asking their parents to put that sticker when they can't do it properly (this has some truth to it because I have a son who likes to put stickers on almost everything).... Now, if you the product is aimed at 10-year-old kids and above, it better be printed because I don't believe that kids at that age still enjoy putting on stickers. 

Now this is a very good point I haven't had on my radar at all!

[makoy]

Oh, I forgot to mention that there are several interviews with sets and graphic designers that TLG also like to strike a balance between element re-usability and capturing the accuracy of the set. Take the UCS Snowspeeder designer video for example. You can quote from the video that they purposely created a sticker to capture a detail. At the same time, they're probably thinking which element not to print on, and which one they should print on. So, whenever I see a sticker sheet I think the designer is also considering that adult fans do not need to use the stickers.

Now going back to decals. I really know how much better it is because I had a few plarails and gunpla toys that use a lot of decals. Depending on how much time you have on your hands, decals can really enhance the final outcome of the model. I don't think it necessary has the same effect if used on LEGO bricks. To me, the more time you spent building to achieve the model shape and look, the better. Putting on a sticker is a shortcut. 

Edited March 24, 2017 by makoy
typo

[MAB]

You can apply regular stickers a bit like water slide decals. If you spray the surface with a very fine soapy water mist, then put the sticker on you can slide it for a while to align it perfectly. However, they do take a while to dry and can easily get dislodged when building if you don't let them dry first.

[clm]

Eh, in the purest sense these are a durable childrens toy that when disassembled is tossed in a bag, box, or some other container. For the 'rough' life these go through I would assume the that stickers would be the most durable option that is capable of withstanding water and other moisture you might get while cleaning the bricks. I can't imagine people would be too happy if the waterslide or dry rub decal got damaged in that commotion. Overall I prefer printed, but if they have to be user applied, stickers seem the best option for the projected handling and storage of the bricks.

[makoy]

It's really hard to compare the model-making hobby to LEGO because, on one hand, the medium is very different. Apple and oranges.

LEGO bricks take the form of the model without any moulded plastic or resin that you can sand, smoothen or apply a special coating on. Yes you can do all these to your LEGO bricks as well but that's not the experience expected from building bricks.

Decals on model toys are usually sprayed with an extra coating to last longer. This is what most of the gunpla aficionados I know do. That's how the decals last long. If left unprotected the decals are only as good as normal stickers. They do not stand normal wear without extra protection even though they look better or more "professional". Minifigure customisers know this much. 

[Lyichir]

On 3/23/2017 at 10:54 PM, makoy said:

While I agree the water slide decal is easier to apply than the dry one, it's is definitely NOT as simple as just sticking the normal stickers that are provided in the LEGO sets right now.

On the argument that printing on bricks cost money -- so does printing on stickers. However, the process involved in printing on bricks is definitely more process-intensive than just printing on a sticker sheet. If TLG will streamline their process to print only on bricks I am sure the price will not be as 'expensive' as other folks will claim. It is just a conscious decision that TLG made because they believe, based on their studies, that kids enjoy the experience of putting stickers or asking their parents to put that sticker when they can't do it properly (this has some truth to it because I have a son who likes to put stickers on almost everything).... Now, if you the product is aimed at 10-year-old kids and above, it better be printed because I don't believe that kids at that age still enjoy putting on stickers. 

As a kid, I don't have a recollection of putting any stickers on my sets... so I believe that the sets I buy for my kids should not have stickers as well. It's not a question of how professional it looks but why do kids have to endure putting a sticker that they could not stick on or align properly. It's actually heartbreaking when I see a set that my son made and all the stickers are all crooked.

Lego being able to replace all stickers with prints isn't just a matter of "streamlining". Lego parts come in all shapes and sizes, and as such most parts need unique fittings to go through their pad printing machines. These fittings are obviously much cheaper than the precision steel molds used for new elements, but nonetheless the cost would still add up if Lego had to produce them for every single part that needed any sort of decoration. That's part of why parts which have been printed before are more likely to be printed in future sets—if Lego doesn't already have the fittings necessary to print a particular piece, it's much cheaper and easier to print out a sticker sheet than to fabricate a new fitting, but for parts that Lego has printed before the fittings already exist.

But even beyond that, there's a cost savings involved with sticker sheets in sets with a large number of decorations. Each printed part has to be printed individually no matter how much you "streamline" the process, which requires more time and more equipment than printing out a single sticker sheet which can be used for all the necessary decorations. AFOLs may hate sets with gigantic sticker sheets, but the alternative would require giving those sets a much smaller number of decorated parts in general.

[Aanchir]

On 3/25/2017 at 10:16 AM, Lyichir said:

Lego being able to replace all stickers with prints isn't just a matter of "streamlining". Lego parts come in all shapes and sizes, and as such most parts need unique fittings to go through their pad printing machines. These fittings are obviously much cheaper than the precision steel molds used for new elements, but nonetheless the cost would still add up if Lego had to produce them for every single part that needed any sort of decoration. That's part of why parts which have been printed before are more likely to be printed in future sets—if Lego doesn't already have the fittings necessary to print a particular piece, it's much cheaper and easier to print out a sticker sheet than to fabricate a new fitting, but for parts that Lego has printed before the fittings already exist.

But even beyond that, there's a cost savings involved with sticker sheets in sets with a large number of decorations. Each printed part has to be printed individually no matter how much you "streamline" the process, which requires more time and more equipment than printing out a single sticker sheet which can be used for all the necessary decorations. AFOLs may hate sets with gigantic sticker sheets, but the alternative would require giving those sets a much smaller number of decorated parts in general.

Well put. To give a hypothetical example of the cost savings, imagine you're designing a set made entirely from existing elements and you want it to have 15 new decorations. You can either print all those parts individually, at the cost of adding 15 new printed elements to production. Or you can create a sticker sheet, at the cost of adding one new printed element to production. Logistically, the latter is far more efficient, even without taking into account equipment costs like whether you have all the right machine fittings to print the parts you want decorated.

[anothergol]

I like water-slide decals, but the problem is that they are more technical & don't last, and thus are not for kids. So you could imagine them in Technic sets, but not really, because stickers are generally on technic panels and are covering the usual ugly sprue mark. A thin decal would either dip in the sprue mark, or cover it and it'd break as soon as you'd touch it. Worse, Technic sets are as much designed to play with, or drive on the dirt, thin decals wouldn't even last.

Lego however should really include two copies of those sticker sheets, it'd cost them virtually nothing and would allow for mistakes.

Edited May 21, 2017 by anothergol