SHIP - EAS Schwarzkopf from Babylon 5

[manglegrat]

As requested by Inkpanther in my last thread on the EAS Agamemnon, here's another B5 MOC! 

This time it's just in LDD/LDraw, but the renders give a pretty decent idea of how it might look IRL.

Front (got guns?):

Side (oh yeah, don't forget the missile launch tubes as well as the guns ):

Top shot (new greebles, new parts, another view of dem guns):

If you're familiar with the reference material, or if you've seen the other thread, the Nova-Class Dreadnoughts are predecessors to the Omega Class Destroyers - without the rotating section but with a ridiculous quantity of guns and slightly fewer Starfuries. This beastie is for takin' names and kickin' megablocks. 

As a result, it wasn't much work to translate the Agamemnon into what I want to call the Schwartzkopf. The reference images I used are the Antares, but I prefer the one that was a topical reference (well, it was at the time!) to Stormin' Norman.  

Stats-wise, this one is 104 studs long (still legally a SHIP, right?), 30 tall and 20(ish) wide - or about 83x29x16cm. It contains 3720 parts, almost exactly 1000 less than the Agamemnon.

I don't think I'll build this one in the brick (I'd have to make a UCS plaque) but just in case, I put the plaque holder on the opposite side of the stand from the Agamemnon so that they could face each other head-to-head on display at home.

The model has 5 not 7 "ribs" in the midsection compared to the reference shot of the Antares but I'm fine with that - it fits my scale better so I'm taking artistic license. After placing the side-panels in the LDraw version, I can tell there could be some brick alignment issues with them around the midsection that would require a minor redesign of those, but they could probably do with a minor tweak anyway.  

The full Flickr album is here. As well as the renders there are a few reference pics I cribbed from the web, including a side-by-side comparison of a Nova and an Omega. 

Hope you enjoy it! 

Edited February 15, 2017 by manglegrat
Updated title to include "from Babylon 5"

[manglegrat]

17 hours ago, manglegrat said:

The model has 5 not 7 "ribs" in the midsection compared to the reference shot of the Antares but I'm fine with that - it fits my scale better so I'm taking artistic license. After placing the side-panels in the LDraw version, I can tell there could be some brick alignment issues with them around the midsection that would require a minor redesign of those, but they could probably do with a minor tweak anyway.  

I revisited this assertion last night and decided to try a 7-rib version of the midsection - and now it seems to be a bit closer to the Antares reference image, and the side plates seem to fit-in better. I'm thinking I kinda prefer it to the 5-rib one but I'm not 100% sure... 

(Note that the 2x2 round tile surrounded by taps in the rear section is supposed to have a grille pattern but I couldn't get POV-Ray to parse the scene file from LDView with that in it, so I redid it as a plain tile. )

[inkpanther]

:D

I think the 7-rib version looks better.

 

[manglegrat]

On 2/15/2017 at 0:01 PM, inkpanther said:

:D

I think the 7-rib version looks better.

I'm starting to think you're right.  

In fact, I liked the beefier look of that version so much I decided to extend the theme and beef-up the gun platforms for the twelve cannons on the top & bottom. The cannons themselves I think are fine but the platforms are now longer and wider, and one plate taller, based on part #4855 (not cheap to find in LBG, though!). Meet version 3!

I think this may be the final tweak... 

Here's a 360 render:

Edited July 2, 2017 by manglegrat
Changed 360 url to be from Google Photos not Photobucket.

[manglegrat]

On 2/14/2017 at 5:11 PM, manglegrat said:

I don't think I'll build this one in the brick (I'd have to make a UCS plaque) but just in case, I put the plaque holder on the opposite side of the stand from the Agamemnon so that they could face each other head-to-head on display at home.

Oops, I went and made a UCS plaque anyway (based on the one from Agamemnon). 

I also did the name plate and hull letter (which for this ship is actually a J).

If anyone's interested in being the first to build their own, everything - all 3 version LXFs, plus sticker images & a couple of printer-ready word docs - is available in my Bricksafe here.

[inkpanther]

Since you kindly provided LXFs, here are two "quick" renders. ;)

   

  

 

[manglegrat]

4 hours ago, inkpanther said:

Since you kindly provided LXFs, here are two "quick" renders. ;)

Sweet looking renders @inkpanther! Particularly the second one - it's just dying to have a space background added to it... 

But wait - are those both from BlueRender and if so how did you put the side panels in-place in LDD?  

I always get collision errors rejecting my attempts at placing those on both Mac & PC versions of LDD...  I'd love to know how you did it! 

<edit>

Aaahhh, I see what you did there!

You used LDD Developer Mode switched on via preferences.ini, with physics testing toggled off in the Developer menu. I wish I had figured that out when I was building Agamemnon, that would have saved me days of work learning how to do it in MLCad and LDView/POV-Ray... D'oh.  Ah well, those are very powerful tools & now I can use 'em too. Silver linings, etc.

Awesomely valuable lesson learned - thanks for leading me to it! 

</edit>

I've also been working on a buildable parts list in Rebrickable and found out the new Tile, Modified 2 x 3 Pentagonal isn't currently available in DBG.  I subbed-in black ones in the list. I'd probably make a transparent sticker with some LBG cabling on it to lighten them up.

I also subbed-in a locking 4x4 turntable for the two side-mounted guns in the midsection (top part is DBG) - don't want it to suffer any gun-barrel droop! 

Edited February 17, 2017 by manglegrat
Figured out how to ignore collisions in LDD

[inkpanther]

1 hour ago, manglegrat said:

But wait - are those both from BlueRender and if so how did you put the side panels in-place in LDD?  

1 hour ago, manglegrat said:

<edit>

Aaahhh, I see what you did there!

You used LDD Developer Mode switched on via preferences.ini, with physics testing toggled off in the Developer menu.

Indeed, it's rendered in Bluerender, but I did not use developer mode in LDD. ;)

In short, I removed top and bottom panels first, which allowed side panels to be placed. Then I attached modified bricks with studs on a side to top and bottom edges of side panels (temporarily removed black technic bricks if there wasn't any room). And with some fiddling reattached top and bottom panels back.

Here's the file: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5Jj28XD-JqUX0k3aTVvaE9TcUk

[manglegrat]

2 hours ago, inkpanther said:

Indeed, it's rendered in Bluerender, but I did not use developer mode in LDD. ;)

In short, I removed top and bottom panels first, which allowed side panels to be placed. Then I attached modified bricks with studs on a side to top and bottom edges of side panels (temporarily removed black technic bricks if there wasn't any room). And with some fiddling reattached top and bottom panels back.

Here's the file: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5Jj28XD-JqUX0k3aTVvaE9TcUk

Aha! So there's more than one way to do it, it seems... Very creative! And LDD-legal, as well. 

Well, even though you did it another way, I learned a new thing today that I'll probably reuse a lot, so that's still one in the "win" column.   

Dev mode in LDD actually made it easy to do with no modifications to the structure. I have to remember to Toggle off "Physics Test" before reopening the LXF file or it removes all the colliding bricks automatically... I hate that function in LDD because it never tells you what got removed! Anyway, because of that I won't put that version up on Bricksafe.

I added a couple more BlueRender renders to Flickr, based on the updated dev-mode LXF file and my standard .sc file. Need to play with the lighting to get better renders, though... 

Cheers!

[manglegrat]

Couple of final pics and then I'll stop, I promise! 

[Venunder]

Brilliant brilliant ships. 

Are instructions available?

[manglegrat]

21 hours ago, Venunder said:

Brilliant brilliant ships. 

Are instructions available?

Thanks, @Venunder! I mentioned this in the other thread, but the Agamemnon (the bigger one) was originally built by Ryan Olsen so credit to him for the design for that one (plus stickers). I'll take credit for reverse-engineering it into LDD and all the rest, though! 

As to instructions, I'd rather leave it as a challenge for other builders.  They're not super-complex but sequencing the build around some of the connections in the internal structure is important - particularly in the Agamemnon. The Schwarzkopf will be easier, though I haven't built it IRL.

Anyone can use LDD to build them - my tips are to work from the inside out (turntables first for the Agamemnon), get the structure up onto the stands early, be patient and expect rework. The LDD-generated instructions are not to be trusted except for non-structural bits! 

The LXF and sticker files plus parts lists are available for anyone who wants them - there may be some minor errors (but hey, it's all free):

1. Agamemnon:
   • Bricksafe folder 
   • Rebrickable parts list
2. Schwarzkopf:
   • Bricksafe folder
   • Rebrickable parts list (for v3) 

If anyone gives either of them a go, good luck, have fun and please share some pics! 

Edited February 19, 2017 by manglegrat

[manglegrat]

Sorry for the bump, but I finally went ahead and built the Schwarzkopf in the brick:

There's some custom sticker action I'm quite happy with - front & rear:

It makes a very nice companion to the Agamemnon (which is on the other side of the fireplace).  

[ExcelsiorUK]

Wow.  Just wow.  I've poked around Lego Ideas of late but I've never seen any Babylon 5 related models on there, which I always found strange.  Surely there'd be a market for them?!  That's incredible work...

[Venunder]

Brilliant brilliant ships. 

Are instructions available?

[manglegrat]

On 5/17/2017 at 2:35 PM, Venunder said:

Brilliant brilliant ships. 

Are instructions available?

See reply 3 posts above. 

[manglegrat]

On 5/17/2017 at 5:57 AM, ExcelsiorUK said:

Wow.  Just wow.  I've poked around Lego Ideas of late but I've never seen any Babylon 5 related models on there, which I always found strange.  Surely there'd be a market for them?!  That's incredible work...

Thanks @ExcelsiorUK!

Yeah, there's not much B5 MOC action out there nowadays, even on Flickr, Brickshelf & MOC Pages. I've found a couple of recent large-scale models on the LDD gallery (Omega-class here, Nova-class here - kudos to that designer!), and there are a few older B5 MOCs on a Flickr group here, but I figure there's only a very small number of B5 fans who are also LEGO fanatics out there any more - it's been over 20 years. (I remember watching it religiously on Channel 4 in the UK when I was at Uni... Wow, I'm old.)

These particular models are a pretty big investment and so far, only one person I know of has built the Agamemnon based on my LDD file - he messaged me a pic of it today, which is great!  

My Agamemnon Bricksafe folder has been visited ~50 times and the Schwarzkopf one ~60 (don't know if that includes my views). I've posted renders on several Flickr groups of both ships, and they only have a max of 630 views, so nowadays it's a pretty obscure show.  

Sadly, I fear B5's time in the spotlight has long since passed.  But I'll always be here for it. 

[ExcelsiorUK]

I met JMS while I was at Uni, and even contributed slightly to the fan tech manual! Great times, and an early example of a social media supported show, really. Rangers for the win!

[Captain_Quinn]

Resurrecting an old thread because I'm also a B5 fan and have been contemplating attempting a design in that theme for a while... then I saw yours and whilst not having had a look at the design files yet, the images presented so far are very impressive. 

[manglegrat]

Thanks! What are you thinking of building?

I started on a Hyperion-class heavy cruiser but because of the compound curves and angles in the front sections couldn't get it to scale to the Agamemnon or Schwarzkopf, so I parked that idea... I'm also suffering designers block on a Battlestar Galactica scaled to my Pegasus. Curves appear to be my nemesis... 

[Captain_Quinn]

Being a fan of Crusade as well as B5, part of me wanted to design & build the Excalibur, but like you mentioned, curves can be a challenge. I'm thinking of tackling the Warlock class destroyer after my current project (a minifig scale Robotech Veritech fighter). 

I imported your Omega Class Destroyer design file into Bricklink Stud.io and started organising into steps and repeated sections (like the hull plating and deck sections of the rotating portion). One change I'm trying to make to connect the fore and aft sections so that you avoid having three independently rotating sections with only the stand to stabilise. My first attempt has increased the width of that section from 6 studs to 8. The next stage is to see if I can incorporate an electric motor to keep the rotating section turning. Hopefully I can identify what pieces in the internal structure aren't visible when finished so that I can minimise what I need to buy to build it. 

I did have one question... in the engine section, the structure that the engines mount to has two 1x2 technic bricks plus a 3L friction pin (in black/blue below, on the right). Was there any particular reason for this choice over a 2x2 modified brick with pin (as on the left, in grey)?

You should take a look at @Davdup design for a Cylon Raider from the reimagined series. It's got heaps of curves, but the scale difference could be an issue.

Edited November 13, 2017 by Captain_Quinn

[manglegrat]

18 hours ago, Captain_Quinn said:

Being a fan of Crusade as well as B5, part of me wanted to design & build the Excalibur, but like you mentioned, curves can be a challenge. I'm thinking of tackling the Warlock class destroyer after my current project (a minifig scale Robotech Veritech fighter). 

Good choice! I had to look that up as I didn't watch Crusade (or TBH much past S4 of B5... ) but that looks pretty menacing! You've got a good chance of making those angles work. What sort of scale are you going for? 

Quote

I imported your Omega Class Destroyer design file into Bricklink Stud.io and started organising into steps and repeated sections (like the hull plating and deck sections of the rotating portion). One change I'm trying to make to connect the fore and aft sections so that you avoid having three independently rotating sections with only the stand to stabilise. My first attempt has increased the width of that section from 6 studs to 8. The next stage is to see if I can incorporate an electric motor to keep the rotating section turning. Hopefully I can identify what pieces in the internal structure aren't visible when finished so that I can minimise what I need to buy to build it.

Good luck, please let me see what it turns out like!

Will you need to make the rings bigger as well to stay in proportion? That might allow for a different structure, which I'd be curious to see - the original is a bit flimsy without the additional reinforcement in my Flickr stream (not in the LDD file).

I think the internals in sections with the side-panels on are invisible - but you can peek through the gaps at the engine section so might want to avoid any colourbarf back there. 

Quote

I did have one question... in the engine section, the structure that the engines mount to has two 1x2 technic bricks plus a 3L friction pin (in black/blue below, on the right). Was there any particular reason for this choice over a 2x2 modified brick with pin (as on the left, in grey)?

Not a conscious choice - I just didn't check the parts palette to see if there was a suitable alternative... 

Quote

You should take a look at @Davdup design for a Cylon Raider from the reimagined series. It's got heaps of curves, but the scale difference could be an issue.

I actually just had a conversation with him the other day, after he commented on one of my Pegasus pics on Flickr. Eagerly waiting to see more than the teaser pic he currently has up. 

[Captain_Quinn]

2 hours ago, manglegrat said:

Good choice! I had to look that up as I didn't watch Crusade (or TBH much past S4 of B5... ) but that looks pretty menacing! You've got a good chance of making those angles work. What sort of scale are you going for? 

Not sure just yet... makes sense that if I build either the Nova or Omega Class, that I stay in scale with those, but it will depend on parts suitability and available display space. My wife is already less than happy about the 4 UCS scale pieces on display in the living room, surrounded by a heap of MOC (TIEs, an A-Wing, a B-Wing). As it stands, I'm already having to spend some time on the upcoming holiday season setting up some Ikea display cases. 

Having said all that, my first priority in the design is to keep the proportions as accurate as possible, as well as any details that can be achieved with available pieces (details like point defence cannons, antennae, etc). If there are specific structures that need to happen (like the foreward bay for fighter and shuttle launch/landing), then a detail like that will likely set the scale. 

Side note: Crusade never got the chance to shine that it deserved. It was actually my gateway into B5, as I've always been a fan of Gary Cole and Peter Woodward (and his father, Edward). The technomages were always of interest to me and to hear that the series would have examined them further just makes the shows cancellation sting that much more. 

2 hours ago, manglegrat said:

Good luck, please let me see what it turns out like!

Will you need to make the rings bigger as well to stay in proportion? That might allow for a different structure, which I'd be curious to see - the original is a bit flimsy without the additional reinforcement in my Flickr stream (not in the LDD file).

I think the internals in sections with the side-panels on are invisible - but you can peek through the gaps at the engine section so might want to avoid any colourbarf back there. 

So far I've been able to come up with a modified structure for the fore and aft sections to connect through the rotating mid-ship. Stud.io is being a bit of a pig with rotating when collisions are turned on (and I can't identify what the conflict is) so it may just be an alignment of the individual parts of the technic turntables being off. What I've designed won't support lifting the build without the stand... like you said, to do that you'd need to scale up the frame, ring section, and consequently, the entire build. If I'm feeling adventurous, I may give that a crack one day. :/

Ahhh... that explains the gaps in the LDD file. I'll make a note to add those in on the Stud.io file I'm working on. When it comes time to publish, any qualms about me publishing on Bricklink Gallery (with suitable credits to you and Ryan Olsen, of course)?

Yeah, the internals can be almost any colour, save for a few spaces where they're visible. I'm designing with those pieces that aren't visible made some wacked out high contrast colour, like bright orange or lime green.

2 hours ago, manglegrat said:

Not a conscious choice - I just didn't check the parts palette to see if there was a suitable alternative... 

ah, cool. I have plenty of the 2x2 with side pin pieces from another design I've been working on. I wasn't sure if there was a structural reason (like increased stability offered by the friction pins) or not. When it comes time to build a prototype, I'll post my findings on the comparison of the two in context of the forces involved with this model. 

 

2 hours ago, manglegrat said:

I actually just had a conversation with him the other day, after he commented on one of my Pegasus pics on Flickr. Eagerly waiting to see more than the teaser pic he currently has up. 

Yeah, your Pegasus images were shared to a group he's convened for BSG related Lego designs. He's a top bloke, very savvy designer and produces very professional designs and instructions. I'm in awe (and admittedly, a tad jealous) of his ability in that capacity. I'm hoping that with enough people that area also design-oriented in his group that a group effort to design something in that genre can be undertaken. I suspect his next effort will be a Raptor in similar scale, or maybe a Heavy Raider.

[Captain_Quinn]

I should include these in the Agamemnon post... but anyway, here's what I have in mind so far. I had a few ideas on how to improve and spent the past couple of hours refining the design. No idea how this will go until I build a test version (thankfully I have the parts and should be able to come up with something).

This is the complete core rotating section, with connection between fore and aft sections

Here's the components:

The rotating outer frame, where the deck sections attached providing artificial gravity.

The central core connector of this section, where each end attaches to fore and aft sections of the ship.

And in redesigning the outer frame, I've been able to resolve the collisions... as suspected, it was an alignment issue. 

Edited November 15, 2017 by Captain_Quinn
To correct links to Google hosted images.

[manglegrat]

20 hours ago, Captain_Quinn said:

Not sure just yet... makes sense that if I build either the Nova or Omega Class, that I stay in scale with those, but it will depend on parts suitability and available display space. My wife is already less than happy about the 4 UCS scale pieces on display in the living room, surrounded by a heap of MOC (TIEs, an A-Wing, a B-Wing). As it stands, I'm already having to spend some time on the upcoming holiday season setting up some Ikea display cases. 

I have some wife acceptability factor issues with my collection - occasionally she grumbles about the cat ornaments we can't display because I have Lego on every available horizontal display surface... 

Quote

Ahhh... that explains the gaps in the LDD file. I'll make a note to add those in on the Stud.io file I'm working on. When it comes time to publish, any qualms about me publishing on Bricklink Gallery (with suitable credits to you and Ryan Olsen, of course)?

No issues at all! Share away. 

Quote

I suspect his next effort will be a Raptor in similar scale, or maybe a Heavy Raider.

Ooh, that'd be cool! I have a soft spot for the Raptor. I copied a minifig-scale design a while ago and have that sitting alongside a couple of minifig-scaled Vipers (Mark II and VII). That's on my awesomest shelf. 

18 hours ago, Captain_Quinn said:

I should include these in the Agamemnon post... but anyway, here's what I have in mind so far. I had a few ideas on how to improve and spent the past couple of hours refining the design. No idea how this will go until I build a test version (thankfully I have the parts and should be able to come up with something).

Not sure how those links were encoded but they don't come through...  Are they Google Photos links without the URL?