Eslandola's Colonial Council - Discussion

[Garmadon]

Magna Charta:

  Although in the ages of barbarianism and serfdom a King was essential to secure Eslandola from ravages without, the time has now come to require assurances from the King against ravages within.  The rights of a law-abiding citizen to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, demand that government be for the people; and to assure that, it must be by the people.  To achieve such a government in New Eslandola a convention is hereby authorized, whose decisions will become law.

  In recognition of the validity of this document, I, King Augusto Fernando VIII, do hereby sign my name:
Fernando Augusto

Fernando Augusto VII, King, Eslandola

---

Constitution: 
The Kingdom of Eslandola will be governed by two councils, the Continental Council and the Colonial Council.

The Continental Council, Section I:
a) The Continental Council will consist of the relevant BoBS leaders.
b) The Continental Council determines locations for troops, ships, and forts, but may be overruled up to half of the force in dispute by the Colonial Council.
c) The Continental Council alone has the prerogative to declare war, but may not do so without the express consent of the Colonial Council.
d) The Continental Council alone may sign treaties, but they must be ratified by the Colonial Council prior to signing.
e) The Continental Council may veto any monopoly.
f) The Continental Council has as its sole prerogative the granting of charters, including but not necessarily limited to charters for Trade Companies, Settlements, and Royal Properties.  A grant may be vetoed by the Colonial Council.
g) The Continental Council must supervise elections to the Colonial Council and must insure that elections be completed in a timely fashion.

Establishment of the Colonial Council, Section II:
a) The Colonial Council shall consist of eight positions; one position shall be granted to each recognized Trade Company (at the time of signing, East Trade-Wind Company, Merchant’s Colonial Trading Company, and Mpya-Stedor All-Encompassing Science, Trade & Resources Organization); one position shall be granted to independents; one position shall be granted to the representatives of each of the three regions; one position shall be reserved for the Admius Legistrad, elected by all citizens of Eslandola.
b) Each Trade Company may decide internally how and when to appoint or elect a member to its position.
c) The Independent Position shall be voted upon by all interested members of Eslandola not affiliated with a Trade Company.
d) The Regional Positions shall be voted upon by members of a region.  No member may vote in more than one region.  No member holding a position as Governor or Mayor may vote in a region outside of that in which he exercises authority.  No member may vote in a region in which he has not placed a build.  Regional Positions may be added by vote of the Colonial Council.
e) The Admius Legistrad shall be elected by all citizens of Eslandola.  He shall be responsible for seeing bills through to their conclusion, for announcing the results of a vote, for communication with the Continental Council, and for keeping peace within the Colonial Council.
f) Each position shall consist of three seats, equal to three votes, to be used as the member holding the position deems fit, except in the case of the Admius Legistrad who shall have one seat with three votes and the power of breaking any tie.
g) Elections shall be held once every four months, except for the Admius Legistrad, which shall be held once every sixth months.
h) Campaigns shall begin two weeks before the election begins.  Campaigners must present a minifigure and a speech; further propaganda is left to each campaigner’s discretion.
i) Council members may resign with two weeks of prior notice.  Vacancies shall not be filled until the next election, except in the case of Trade Company positions, or in the case of Admius Legistrad, for whom a replacement shall be found by the remaining members of the Council from one of their number until the end of the term only.  No member, after having resigned, may campaign in the following election.

Operation of the Colonial Council, Section III:
a) Each position shall be granted a salary of 25 DBs monthly, except in the case of Admius Legistrad, who will be granted 50 DBs a month.  Amended: Salaries for Council members have been since eliminated entirely.
b) Any member who fails to register either a vote or an abstention, and has not sent a letter of excuse, shall be fined 100 DBs, except in the case of the Admius Legistrad, whose disappearance without a letter of excuse shall be penalized by 500 DBs.  Two letters of excuse in succession from the Admius Legistrad shall result in a fine of 500 DBs.
c) Any resolution shall be passed by a majority of 51% of votes cast, save in the case of veto upon the Continental Council, which shall be passed when relevant by a majority of 66% of votes cast.
d) The Colonial Council shall hold its meetings in a designated thread, but may adjourn by vote to a private thread for a specific length of time.
e) The Colonial Council shall vote openly, but may determine by vote upon a secret ballot at any time.

Prerogatives of the Colonial Council, Section IV:
a) The Colonial Council shall decide by vote when and how many troops, ships, or forts to build, raise, disband, or sell, above the automatic thresholds.
b) The Colonial Council may overrule (up to half of the forces available) the disposition of forces made by the Continental Council by a veto vote.
c) The Colonial Council may not declare war, but must approve for any war to be declared.
d) The Colonial Council may not sign treaties, but must ratify prior to their signing.
e) The Colonial Council may propose and vote upon new monopolies, but the Continental Council possesses veto power.
f) The Colonial Council may veto any charter granted by the Continental Council.
g) The Colonial Council may determine when to recognize a chartered Trade Company, admitting them to a permanent seat on the Colonial Council.
h) The Colonial Council may raise or lower taxes by vote without let or hindrance.
i) Veto upon the Continental Council may only be considered for one month subsequent to the Continental Council’s decision.
j) The above provisions notwithstanding, the Colonial Council shall take no action disapproved by the leadership of the Brick Seas.

Judicial System, Section V:
a) All judicial cases will be decided by a jury randomly chosen from among active Eslandian members and presided over by a member of the Continental Council as judge.
b) The jury shall determine guilt; the judge shall pronounce the sentence.
c) Any citizen of Eslandola in good standing may bring a case to trial at the relevant time (quarterly).

---

Bill of Rights:

I. The right of each citizen of Eslandola to his own form of religion shall not be infringed.
II. The right of each citizen of Eslandola to a free expression of his sentiments upon his own property or upon public property shall not be infringed.
III. The right of each citizen of Eslandola to raise troops, establish forts, and license ships shall not be infringed.
IV. Private property of Eslandian citizens shall not be taken for public use without the consent of the owner.
V. This Bill of Rights notwithstanding, no member shall take action disapproved by the leadership of EuroBricks and/or the Brick Seas.

 

Previous Post:

Eslandolans all!  

Given the recent developments in the Old World, culminating in the signing of the Magna Charta by King Fernando Augusto VIII, it behooves our glorious nation to gather together its store of wisdom, ingenuity, and justice, in the formation of the New World Colonial Council of Eslandola... also known as the Colonial Congress, or Colonial Parliament of Eslandola.

After the signing of the Magna Charter, the Eslandolans of the Old World have been busily engaged in setting up the Old World Council, Congress, or Parliament of Eslandola, and, upon due consideration of the subject, it has been decided to transfer a prudent amount of the decision making to be made as to the affairs of Eslandola in the New World to the New World itself, and to form there a similar institution for the government of the people through representation, subject, of course, at the same time, to the High Council of Eslandola.  Therefore, as this government is meant to reflect and aid the desires of the people and the demands of justice, it is the High Council's earnest wish to hear the suggestions, ideas, etc. of the people of Eslandola.  To begin with, the framework and basics which partially have been, and partially need to be decided upon are the following:

1. The Colonial Council shall be based upon a system of representation of the citizens of Eslandola found in the Colonies, and will be subject, ultimately, to the High Council.  What exactly is to be the prerogative of this Colonial Council, however, is yet to be finally decided, and a basic framework or constitution for the direction of its members must be penned.
2. What is to be the procedure for filling the seats of this council, how often they shall change, and what criterion shall be used must also be decided.
3. And finally, for the present (barring any suggestions of other points which may have been overlooked which may require being immediately addressed), the question must be finally settled as to what is to fund the decisions made by the Council.  The current outlook upon this point is that it ought to be provided for by a certain percentage (20%, possibly?) of the town banks of the Colonies (taxes, although their rates be decided by the Colonial Council, still going to the home country - and it is worthwhile here to note, that plans are afoot to do away with the 20% free tax, which would make this power of the Colonial Council to actually bear upon the nation's proceedings).

Other pertinent matters, such as the meeting place of the Colonial Parliament Council of Eslandola, not being of such pressing import, we shall let them lie until the groundwork has been once decided upon.  

Fire away, then, with such suggestions, ideas, etc. which ye, the citizens of the Colonies of Eslandola, may have relating to the subject, for the purpose of establishing a form of government which may be satisfactory to all.  For wealth, doubloons, gold, etc., etc.  For Eslandola!

 

In sincere desire for the promulgation of justice and peace, etc. etc., and for the service of the people,

E. T. Wilkinson de Chauncourtois

E. T. Wilkinson de Cauncourtois

On behalf of the High Council of Eslandola.

*          *          *

A Summary of the Points on which a Consensus seems somewhat Established:

Note that these are not all necessarily final, but only appear to be where we are heading right now.  If you've got any questions/suggestions/comments, don't be afraid to share them!

 

1. The Old World/Continental/High Council has the following prerogatives:

   For forts, troops, and ships:

   The New World Council decides by vote when and how many troops or ships to raise, above the automatic game thresholds (3 ships, 1 company per island, etc.).  By default, the Old World Council decides where these should go (i.e. fills out the paperwork), but they can be overruled by the New World should they put it to vote, up to 1/2 of the total available military or navy: i.e. if we have 4 ships, and the Old World Council wants them to go on a Pirate Purge, but the New World Council wants them to go on Trade Routes, the New World can overrule for 2 of those ships, but not for the other two.

   For declaring war:

   The Old World Council does the actual declaration.  Both Councils must always be agreed, however, for a war to be initiated.

   For making treaties:

   The Old World Council signs the treaty into law, but it must be ratified by the New World Council prior to signing.

   For creating monopolies:

   The New World Council proposes & votes upon these, but the Old World Council (and BoBS leadership in general) possess veto power.

   For the granting of charters for TCs, Settlements, and/or Royal Properties:

   The Old World Council decides, but the New World can veto within 2 weeks by a 2/3s majority.  [Edit: That would be vetoing a yes, of course.  A no can't be vetoed.]

2. All other things outside of the above (such as taxation, etc., etc.) belong to prerogative the Colonial Council, not subject to the High Council’s veto.

 

1. The seats on the Colonial Council will be distributed thusly:

There are 7 seats – 1 for each of the 3 TCs (selected by TC members as they please), 1 for each of the 3 regions (selected by citizens of that region as they see fit, with new regions resulting in new seats in the future), and 1 independent seat (selected by players not aligned with a TC).

Each player in the Colonial Council gets 3 votes, which would in-story be cast by three different members of the council all controlled by that one member of Eslandola.

There is also one Prime Magistrate/Minister/Stadtholder position in the Colonial Council, who would be the Council’s leader, and would be in charge of seeing that business is taken care of.  The member controlling the Prime Minister would not be able to sit at the same time in the council, but would instead receive 5 votes, to indicate that that party is likely in the majority (one Prime Minister vote, and four other members of the council controlled by the same member of Eslandola).  Note that this is still under deliberation, and that possibly the Stadtholder would only be able to vote in the case of a tie – but, as it is the most important and will likely be the most contested position of the council, I really think that the votes allowed to him ought to reflect that - remember that the member with this position could quite possibly be giving up a normal seat in the council.

The Prime Minister/etc. position would be provided for a contest at the end of each PM term, which would involve building and campaigning, and he would be elected by the whole nation of Eslandola.  Note that this is also under discussion, and that the other possibility is that he would be elected by the council – but I really think that we definitely need at least one seat elected by the populace at large, and given the importance of this seat, that the other one possibly up for public election was decided instead in favor of a free trader/independent seat, and the campaigning part of the race, I really think the first option is the one we should go for.  A possible mix would be that three candidates would be chosen out of however many there were by the council, prior to a general election on those members.

A 51% majority of the total members of the council would be needed to pass any bill – 14 votes (out of 26, the total number of characters on the council, including the 5 PM votes).  The other possibility (which I myself would be in favor of) would be that only a 51% of the members actually sitting in the council would be needed to pass a bill (that allows for the possibility of bribing someone not to show up in order for a bill to pass, and not only, as in the other case, for a bill to fail [all absentees being counted as againsts] – and since we don’t seem to be against the idea of leaving the door open for bribing, I can’t see why we would want to close the door just half the way!)  Under either possibility, at and rate, members not showing up would be subject to a fine.

 

[Capt Wolf]

Well, right off the bat, we have a serious problem with this: "the question must be finally settled as to what is to fund the decisions made by the Council " The answer is simple: existing state funds. The whole point of the magna carta was to wrest control from the king. This first and foremost includes the purse strings of the nation's treasury. We do not need to raise new funds; rather, the king needs our approval for spending those funds. In that way we can prevent him from doing things like committing us to wars we do not support. We did not go though all this to simply raise taxes on ourselves and still be subject to an old world council! If that is the only practical outcome, then the Nelissa model of true independence looks much more appealing. I think most of us believed that at the worst we would have to share power with an old world council (what you have termed a High Council), not be subject to it. If this is not resolved to colonial satisfaction immediately, all other questions are moot.

Edited November 14, 2016 by Capt Wolf

[Kai NRG]

Do keep in mind that the "Old World Council" would be completely independent from the King in character.  It would consist of whoever are leaders of Eslandola at any given time.

From a leadership perspective, either the leaders of Eslandola will need to have some sort of "final say" in the dealings of the new world council (within limits of course) or those aspects of running Eslandola which are supposed to be dealt with by leadership will need to be relegated to a different council consisting of leadership only.  Garmadon and I think that that latter solution would be easier (for one thing, it puts a clear line between where the prerogatives of leadership end and the New World Council takes over).  In that case, the leaders of Eslandola would be subject to the same exact criteria and restrictions as everyone else when it comes to the New World Council, rather than being first among equals so to speak as they otherwise probably would need to be.

i.e.  Either the Old Council = Leadership and has ultimate control over the main purse strings while the New Council, with its own separate (probably smaller) purse is a Council in which the leaders have no constitutional influence greater than any other member,
or,
Forget the Old Council, all you need really is one Council, but leadership is going to need to have some sort of greater power than the other members, for obvious reasons (otherwise leadership isn't, well, leadership...).

Wouldn't it be easier to keep matters straight by dividing things up like this?  And mightn't it also make more sense in game?

By all means though, let's go ahead and discuss this aspect as well.

[gedren_y]

Here are my ideas.

----------------------------------------

For our legislature:

I also think the term 'High Council' should be done away with. I think 'Continental Council' works better. That way members could be something other than nobility. There are no noble land holders in the Truachesh lands. The Royal Family should have three seats.

'Colonial Council' works for the new world. Each council should include their regional representatives, but the Colonial Council should also include nine seats for the seafarers. Of those nine seats two each would go to the three major shipping companies, and the remaining three are elected among the independent seafarers. Population density should determine the amount of representation each island gets in the Colonial Council.

The Continental Council would control the larger portion of the national treasury, and is responsible for the maintenance of the Navy, and trade monopoly decisions.

The Colonial Council would control the exploration destinations, and manage the funding for local infrastructure.

National taxation should pass through both councils. Additional regional taxation can be handled locally.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We also need a Premier Magistrate at the head of our executive branch of government. Elected through an electoral college whose votes get portioned by population in regional popular vote, with the addition the Lords Vote. The Lords Vote would include one electoral vote for each noble household, and five electoral votes for the Royal Family. The Premier Magistrate will set diplomatic policy, be the commander-in-chief of our Navy and all continental militias, appoint judges to empty seats in the national judiciary, and be a deciding vote in the Continental Council should there be a tie vote.

To remove a Premier Magistrate from office would require a majority vote of the combined legislature.

[Capt Wolf]

First, I think we all understand that the magna carta is an in-game thing, attempting to deal with King Fernando, not the game leadership of Kai, Garmadon, and Kabel.

That said, you've overlooked the obvious working structure (in-game) of a two-house system, where there is an old world council and a new world council, and nothing gets done unless both councils agree. The king remains as a figurehead that rubbberstamps anything that both houses approve.

In such a set-up, game leadership can assume the roles of all members of the old world council, and players will be the members of the new world council. In this form, players are still restrained by leadership. How we fill that new world council needs to be determined, but that matters not until we are in agreement with how the overall govt works.

Regarding taxes: there is no need for new taxes. The funds that allowed Eslandola to operate still exist, and no new entities that need funding have been created. We're simply rearranging how those decisions are made in-game.

 

 

10 minutes ago, gedren_y said:

Here are my ideas.

----------------------------------------

For our legislature:

I also think the term 'High Council' should be done away with. I think 'Continental Council' works better. That way members could be something other than nobility. There are no noble land holders in the Truachesh lands. The Royal Family should have three seats.

'Colonial Council' works for the new world. Each council should include their regional representatives, but the Colonial Council should also include nine seats for the seafarers. Of those nine seats two each would go to the three major shipping companies, and the remaining three are elected among the independent seafarers. Population density should determine the amount of representation each island gets in the Colonial Council.

The Continental Council would control the larger portion of the national treasury, and is responsible for the maintenance of the Navy, and trade monopoly decisions.

The Colonial Council would control the exploration destinations, and manage the funding for local infrastructure.

National taxation should pass through both councils. Additional regional taxation can be handled locally.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We also need a Premier Magistrate at the head of our executive branch of government. Elected through an electoral college whose votes get portioned by population in regional popular vote, with the addition the Lords Vote. The Lords Vote would include one electoral vote for each noble household, and five electoral votes for the Royal Family. The Premier Magistrate will set diplomatic policy, be the commander-in-chief of our Navy and all continental militias, appoint judges to empty seats in the national judiciary, and be a deciding vote in the Continental Council should there be a tie vote.

To remove a Premier Magistrate from office would require a majority vote of the combined legislature.

Gedren, you posted your reply while I was responding to Kai. I like your naming suggestions for the two councils, and I see no problems with your definitions for areas of responsibility. Your system for selecting a premier magistrate seems overly complicated at first, but maybe it will be clearer after I study it more. I must admit that my initial thought was that the king would remain the figurehead that represents Eslandola on the international stage, but I have quickly realized that that is impractical, as it is his actions on the international stage that brought about these problems. Since this is an in-game thing, perhaps the Colonial Council should nominate a premier magistrate, but the continental council would have veto power over the nomination. Presumably the colonial council could override this veto with enough votes, or otherwise nominate a different candidate.

Edited November 14, 2016 by Capt Wolf

[Kai NRG]

3 hours ago, Capt Wolf said:

...That said, you've overlooked the obvious working structure (in-game) of a two-house system, where there is an old world council and a new world council, and nothing gets done unless both councils agree. The king remains as a figurehead that rubbberstamps anything that both houses approve...

Okay, yeah, that's one way to look at it.  There's the Old World Council (one house), and the New World (basically a second house).  Since this is an RPG game, the location is technically negligible in a way that it sure wouldn't be IRL.  My preference, and it seems like we at least are in agreement here, is that leadership basically is equivalent to the Old World Council (the amount of NPCs they want to populate it with is irrelevant), while the New World or Second House is chosen on some TBD criteria (which leaders may or may not qualify for) from among ESL members.

3 hours ago, Capt Wolf said:

Regarding taxes: there is no need for new taxes. The funds that allowed Eslandola to operate still exist, and no new entities that need funding have been created. We're simply rearranging how those decisions are made in-game.

Yeah - I told Garmadon to mention that, but he didn't make it very clear. *cough*cough*  What he was saying is that, due to concerns that DBs are perhaps being created too rapidly, leadership has been seriously considering eliminating that 20% tax which is part of what allows ESL to operate.  In which case all we'd have left would be half-licenses, which is probably enough technically, but it might be nice to have say a 10% tax to make sure we stay competitive when it comes to capability for raising troops compared to other factions.

The idea of taxing settlements is just that - an idea (my idea too  ).  I look at Town Banks as things that build up way too fast for comfort and need to be constantly disposed of to avoid attracting pirates, but as I only work with one tiny settlement, plus I don't have much time to devote to brainstorming how those funds can be used anyways, the way I look at Town Banks is probably not the way most Mayors are looking at them.

Here are a few more ideas... ideas being a key word here!!

For raising taxes (keeping in mind that the previous "free" tax scheme will probably be done away with):
The New World Council decides how much to tax members.

For forts, troops, and ships:
The New World Council decides by vote when and how many troops or ships to raise, above the automatic game thresholds (3 ships, 1 regiment per island or something like that).  By default, the Old World Council decides where these should go (i.e. fills out the paperwork), but they can be overruled by the New World should they put it to vote, up to 1/2 of the total available military or navy: i.e. if we have 4 ships, and the Old World Council wants them to go on a Pirate Purge, but the New World Council wants them to go on Trade Routes, the New World can overrule for 2 of those ships, but not for the other two.  Realistically, I don't think we'd have that sort of conflict.

For declaring war:
The Old World Council does the actual declaration.  Both Councils must be agreed, however, for a war to be initiated.

For making treaties:
The Old World Council signs the treaty into law, but it must be ratified by the New World Council prior to signing.

For creating monopolies:
The New World Council proposes & votes upon these, but the Old World Council (and BoBS leadership in general) possess veto power.

And... erm... what else do we do again?   I think that's about it, though it's late here and I might be missing some things...

Of course there is the basic decision as to who, how, and how long when it comes to Council membership.  We've seen some good ideas for this already as it's been bandied around elsewhere.

3 hours ago, gedren_y said:

I also think the term 'High Council' should be done away with. I think 'Continental Council' works better. That way members could be something other than nobility. There are no noble land holders in the Truachesh lands. The Royal Family should have three seats.

'Colonial Council' works for the new world. Each council should include their regional representatives, but the Colonial Council should also include nine seats for the seafarers. Of those nine seats two each would go to the three major shipping companies, and the remaining three are elected among the independent seafarers. Population density should determine the amount of representation each island gets in the Colonial Council.

The Continental Council would control the larger portion of the national treasury, and is responsible for the maintenance of the Navy, and trade monopoly decisions.

The Colonial Council would control the exploration destinations, and manage the funding for local infrastructure.

National taxation should pass through both councils. Additional regional taxation can be handled locally.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We also need a Premier Magistrate at the head of our executive branch of government. Elected through an electoral college whose votes get portioned by population in regional popular vote, with the addition the Lords Vote. The Lords Vote would include one electoral vote for each noble household, and five electoral votes for the Royal Family. The Premier Magistrate will set diplomatic policy, be the commander-in-chief of our Navy and all continental militias, appoint judges to empty seats in the national judiciary, and be a deciding vote in the Continental Council should there be a tie vote.

In this discussion stage I'll probably just be using Old World and New World, since those are pretty clear, but Colonial/Continental are good words for the final versions!

As Capt Wolf said, I find that way of choosing a Premier Magistrate somewhat complicated too... we do only have something like 15 active members (if that many), so do we really need those 15 members creating an electoral college, so that then they can do a popular vote, so that then the Lords' votes (which probably includes more overlap) can be added?  We may be overthinking this a touch... 

[Capt Wolf]

Kai, if the tax issue is something that is changing for everyone game-wide, that's another issue entirely, and I'm cool with that. But as presented by Garmadon, it sounded like something that was a direct result of this magna carta storyline, and that wouldn't be cool.

And as to how you have outlined the way the two houses would share power, that all makes sense to me. My main concern was simply that we not replace one king with another, just with a different name.

[Kai NRG]

5 minutes ago, Capt Wolf said:

Kai, if the tax issue is something that is changing for everyone game-wide, that's another issue entirely, and I'm cool with that. But as presented by Garmadon, it sounded like something that was a direct result of this magna carta storyline, and that wouldn't be cool...

I'd say not!  Yes, that would definitely be something changing for all the factions!

[gedren_y]

I was only describing an in-character government election format, trying to strike a balance between a capitalist republic and a constitutional monarchy. I missed the word 'of' after 'addition' in my previous post. The person controlling the character is another matter altogether.

I like Kai's format for the responsibilities of the Councils.

[Kai NRG]

1 minute ago, gedren_y said:

I was only describing an in-character government election format, trying to strike a balance between a capitalist republic and a constitutional monarchy. I missed the word 'of' after 'addition' in my previous post. The person controlling the character is another matter altogether...

Ah - so are you saying that what we actually do is set up a poll or something, but we "let on" that it's an electoral college and all that?   Makes sense to me.

[Capt Wolf]

51 minutes ago, Kai NRG said:

Ah - so are you saying that what we actually do is set up a poll or something, but we "let on" that it's an electoral college and all that?   Makes sense to me.

Makes sense to me, too. Although it may still be simpler to have the colonial council serve as that electoral college.

As for the composition of the colonial council, what about a council of 7 (although that may grow as we explore more)? It could include one representative for each of the three TCs, one representative for each of the three colonial sea regions (sea of storms, sea of thieves, prio seas), and one at-large seat.

[Elostirion]

10 hours ago, Kai NRG said:

From a leadership perspective, either the leaders of Eslandola will need to have some sort of "final say" in the dealings of the new world council (within limits of course) or those aspects of running Eslandola which are supposed to be dealt with by leadership will need to be relegated to a different council consisting of leadership only.  Garmadon and I think that that latter solution would be easier (for one thing, it puts a clear line between where the prerogatives of leadership end and the New World Council takes over).  In that case, the leaders of Eslandola would be subject to the same exact criteria and restrictions as everyone else when it comes to the New World Council, rather than being first among equals so to speak as they otherwise probably would need to be.

Please let's stop talking about thin air for once and replace it with facts: What exactly are those leadership-tasks that are supposed to be dealt with by the Eslandola-leadership-team?

Edited November 15, 2016 by Elostirion

[Tezclatipoca]

Hi there, fellow Eslandolan comrades !

Perhaps I am out of the EGS, but I am staying an Eslandolan player, so I will share with you my askings.

I have to admit that I am a bit confuse with this political change. I know it is to better the Faction, but why are you offering a change before having ever tryed the current government system ?

We never see any new member designed in the main (High ?) council since the beginning, and we never organized the voting system to elect the Minister of Citizenry

May I remind you that first words from Kabel (and probably approved by you 2, Kai and Garmadon) :

High Council of Trade
Being a member of the High Council of Trade is a distinct privilege that only the most noble and honorable of Eslandians get to have. Except for the Minister of Citizenry, members are selected by the King, with the help of fellow High Council members. The Minister of Citizenry (often referred to as the "People's Man") is selected through popular vote. Keep in mind though that the King can kick out a member for any reason he deems fit.

Current requirements include:
– participation in at least two BoBS challenges
– at least ten MOCs for BoBS
– EWTC or MCTC membership (as other trading companies gain power, this requirement may change)

Executive Chair: King Fernando – Augusto VII (NPC controlled by @kabel)
Prime Minister: Sir Edward Thomas Wilkinson de Chauncourtois (NPC controlled by @Garmadon)
Secretary of State: Guy K. Wyndzoon (@Kai NRG)
Viceroy of New Eslandola: Sir Renato Filamento (@kabel)
Minister of Trade: *yet to be chosen*
Minister of War: *yet to be chosen*
Minister of Navy: *yet to be chosen*
Minster of Citizenry: *yet to be elected*

You may be asking: How do I get picked? My advice would be to just build and have fun! If you do those two things, along the journey you just might be chosen! If you aren't, don't worry – honorary members of the council will be added as the King sees fit.

So, Actually, I am not really sure we need an other council. The high council is not complete at all and many players should deserve some positions on this council before adding another one IMO.

I think this will add more complexity and more leadership work for Eslandola leaders. But as I see you, leaders, are the ones who are offering us to design a new Government system, I am sure you thought to this before.

I know it is not very constructive at all, my position is basically : "Stay to what we've got and try it before changing the system" and my only question would be "Why do you want to change the system ?"; well it is very Conservative, I know, but I think we never really seen the aspects of the actual Government.

These are my Ooc concerns.

Of course, Ic reactions are simplier, Felipe de la Manzana is not really interested in politics. He is just obsessed by his quest for the Golden Apple. So, whatever the Eslandolan leaders will choose, he will adapt himself, except if it's preventing him to chase the fabulous Apple.

Thank you for reading me.

[Kai NRG]

5 hours ago, Elostirion said:

Please let's stop talking about thin air for once and replace it with facts: What exactly are those leadership-tasks that are supposed to be dealt with by the Eslandola-leadership-team?

This was a subsequent reply that I think details everything relative to Eslandola that I think leadership specifically should take final care of and responsibility for (not much, actually...).

11 hours ago, Kai NRG said:

For raising taxes (keeping in mind that the previous "free" tax scheme will probably be done away with):
The New World Council decides how much to tax members.

For forts, troops, and ships:
The New World Council decides by vote when and how many troops or ships to raise, above the automatic game thresholds (3 ships, 1 regiment per island or something like that).  By default, the Old World Council decides where these should go (i.e. fills out the paperwork), but they can be overruled by the New World should they put it to vote, up to 1/2 of the total available military or navy: i.e. if we have 4 ships, and the Old World Council wants them to go on a Pirate Purge, but the New World Council wants them to go on Trade Routes, the New World can overrule for 2 of those ships, but not for the other two.  Realistically, I don't think we'd have that sort of conflict.

For declaring war:
The Old World Council does the actual declaration.  Both Councils must be agreed, however, for a war to be initiated.

For making treaties:
The Old World Council signs the treaty into law, but it must be ratified by the New World Council prior to signing.

For creating monopolies:
The New World Council proposes & votes upon these, but the Old World Council (and BoBS leadership in general) possess veto power.

I had forgotten the recognition of TCs and granting charters.  IMHO the Old World Council decides (we're talking about granting charters for new TCs, granting charters for Royal Properties, and granting charters for Settlements), but the New World can veto within 2 weeks by a 2/3s majority.  [Edit: That would be vetoing a yes, of course.  A no can't be vetoed.]

4 hours ago, Faladrin said:

...So, Actually, I am not really sure we need an other council. The high council is not complete at all and many players should deserve some positions on this council before adding another one IMO...

It's true that we haven't really exploited the full potential (or even part of the potential) of the original design.  But the problem is that the original design really has nothing behind it.  All those positions are just empty names, and there's no sort of structure as to how a full High Council would actually work.  Who would make what decisions?  We have no clue.  So we'd have to have some sort of structural discussion anyways, and it seems better to start from the ground up with a basic design that we can all agree on, rather than try to shove what we want to see done into an old structure.

4 hours ago, Faladrin said:

Of course, Ic reactions are simplier, Felipe de la Manzana is not really interested in politics. He is just obsessed by his quest for the Golden Apple. So, whatever the Eslandolan leaders will choose, he will adapt himself, except if it's preventing him to chase the fabulous Apple.

No fear of that!   Apples away!

Edited November 15, 2016 by Kai NRG

[gedren_y]

@Faladrin What you are referring to is an in-game ranking, but it doesn't really work for an in-character government. This is about story, not about EGS ranking. It looks like people just didn't compete for those positions. I certainly had no interest in them, because I didn't want to spend time writing and building for those roles. I only use the EGS to be part of the MRCA to advance my story. (@Kai NRG beat me to the point, with less explanation.)

For my story I created the character Viscount Alexander Doblin, who could conceivably be in the Continental Council. He is a secondary character that I am willing to loan out to others who do the government story work. I have my main characters doing what I want them to do, and have no interest in any responsibilities beyond that.

Edited November 15, 2016 by gedren_y

[Kai NRG]

37 minutes ago, gedren_y said:

...For my story I created the character Viscount Alexander Doblin, who could conceivably be in the Continental Council. He is a secondary character that I am willing to loan out to others who do the government story work. I have my main characters doing what I want them to do, and have no interest in any responsibilities beyond that.

That's a good point - we don't want players feeling like they have to invest time in understanding & participating in the government if what they really want to do is build their own stories.  (One reason why I think most of the initiative by default should be taken by the Old World Council, whose job it is to keep things moving in a way that it isn't for other players.)

[Garmadon]

First off, sorry for any misunderstandings arising from de Chauncourtois' rather flowery and aristocratic style - all the first post was meant to say, essentially, was that the discussion has been opened, and to give a few starting suggestions (none of which are meant to be imposed on you, but which are simply presented for discussion).  

As Kai also mentioned, however, the push to get the challenge posted in good time did mess up the timeline a little, so that the Magna Charta has actually by signed in game (that was all I meant by referring to it in the post), without having actually been written yet - which, of course, we'll be discussing with all the rest of you   So never fear with that, we're not imposing a top-down story-line or system on you - exactly the opposite, in fact! - we're asking for your input and ideas for the future of Eslandola! 

 

That said, on to some of the questions and ideas:

1. Taxes - the free 20% tax, as per the leadership's current discussions, will soon be done away with for all factions, so that if and nation wishes to receive that money, they will need to actually decide and raise it themselves.  What I was saying (and I think all will agree with me), is that it is the Colonial Council's prerogative to decide what that rate of tax should be (no taxation without representation!  )
2. The Old World High Council (as it is currently called) consists of the leadership.  So every time it is referred to, what is meant is the leaders.  Kai has done a good job explaining what it is that the leadership needs to keep a hold of simply because it is leadership, and therefore responsible, for instance, to regularly do the paperwork of filling out forms.  Where the ships, troops, etc. will be allocated, however, will be, up to at least 50% (that's up to discussion - if you have a different rate go ahead and suggest it, and your reasons for it), will be subject to obey the vote of the Colonial Council, not subject to a High Council (leadership) veto.
3. Note that this one, unlike the previous two, is a new (by which I only mean, not previously mentioned in this thread) suggestion - which is, namely, that there will be only one treasury of Eslandola which is to be found in Colonial Eslandola, and subject (to at least the degree noted in point 2) entirely to the Colonial Council.  In short, no money faction treasure ships sailing away with Colonial Eslandola's gold to the Old World   Since there is no need for the leadership (note that I mean the OOC leadership, not IC, of course) to keep a tight hold of the nation's money purse - and in fact, since it is there to serve the people, giving them as much say in the matter as possible is entirely a good idea - there is no real reason for having two treasuries (one for the High Council [leadership] and one for the Colonial Council).  Therefore, we may as well as just leave the town banks as they are for now, and let the Colonial Council itself decide if they want to tax them, and/or to what degree, after it has been formed.  So let's drop that part of the discussion for now.
4. As Kai noted (this is particularly @Faladrin), the fact is, that the places on the High Council which were originally planned were nothing but empty titles.  Since we have a rather robust membership (keep it up, guys! ), since they have requested for a government seated in the Colonies, since it is the leadership of Eslandola's opinion, like that of its members, that allowing the regular member more say in the government (only if they want it, of course!) is a good thing, and since it is handy to keep the High Council to the leadership for leadership decisions (meaning that, of course, any new leader will, in fact, be promoted into the High Council), we've pretty much all come to an agreement that an overhaul of the current system will result in the best for all concerned!  Sorry if that was long-winded, and hope it explains the matter better than Chauncourtois could pretty well!   And definitely keep up your quest for that fabled apple! 

I've definitely missed some things here, but I'm sure you all are already tired of this post anyhow!  

I'll just close by remarking that I plan to add the new points of majority concensus (whenever they seem to appear) to the first post, so that we can be gathering the points for the eventual final rules.  So just go check up there every once in a while, and if you see anything that you don't agree with there, it won't be final until we all agree, so go ahead by all means and express your concerns!  

[Capt Wolf]

6 hours ago, Faladrin said:

May I remind you that first words from Kabel (and probably approved by you 2, Kai and Garmadon) :

High Council of Trade
Being a member of the High Council of Trade is a distinct privilege that only the most noble and honorable of Eslandians get to have. Except for the Minister of Citizenry, members are selected by the King, with the help of fellow High Council members. The Minister of Citizenry (often referred to as the "People's Man") is selected through popular vote. Keep in mind though that the King can kick out a member for any reason he deems fit.

Current requirements include:
– participation in at least two BoBS challenges
– at least ten MOCs for BoBS
– EWTC or MCTC membership (as other trading companies gain power, this requirement may change)

Executive Chair: King Fernando – Augusto VII (NPC controlled by @kabel)
Prime Minister: Sir Edward Thomas Wilkinson de Chauncourtois (NPC controlled by @Garmadon)
Secretary of State: Guy K. Wyndzoon (@Kai NRG)
Viceroy of New Eslandola: Sir Renato Filamento (@kabel)
Minister of Trade: *yet to be chosen*
Minister of War: *yet to be chosen*
Minister of Navy: *yet to be chosen*
Minster of Citizenry: *yet to be elected*

You may be asking: How do I get picked? My advice would be to just build and have fun! If you do those two things, along the journey you just might be chosen! If you aren't, don't worry – honorary members of the council will be added as the King sees fit.

Faladrin, great reminder! I had forgotten all about this, probably because leadership never used it! I think it could be used in an IC fashion, with the requirements really just being a way to confirm that the player is active in the game. That said, given that we never used it, coming up with a new form is really no different at this point than using the old form, except that changing the form of government is essentially an IC thing.

That said, I think it would be fun if we actually followed through with building an Eslandola cabinet of ministers with characters in the game. It wouldn't have to be part of the High Council or Colonial Council, but essentially an extension of having a High Magistrate. It provides roles for prominent characters to play in the game.

[Kwatchi]

First off, as an outsider, this has been a fascinating read so far.  It does seem to be becoming overly complicated though.  May I make a suggestion? Keep it simple and open ended.

RP-wise, why not set-up Eslandolan House of Trade Lords (or some such) rather than multiple sub-councils, and just have political blocks representing different interests with the mad King as the titular head.  Not only does this give RP'ers the chance to play as royalists (which seems to be lacking in your current set-up), you get a chance for inter-block tension as trade lords try to curry favour between different members to gain an advantage.  It also opens up a future opportunity for the King to attempt to regain power through political coersion if you need a story hook. 

As for gameplay, each block can vote one of its members to a High Council, with four roles to play: Secretaries of State/Commerce/Army/Navy or whatever.  Should there be no player interested in being part of one of the four blocks, that High Council role goes to an ineffective NPC (who random rolls their vote); tie breaks by the ESL faction leader who gets to RP the King.  The council roles can be chosen through voting of the five members,  though randomly might be fun too. Each Secretary proposes one mandate for their ministry.  High Council proposals are placed before the House (well, players only in reality plus any NPC councillors) on a set basis, with bribes and blackmail prevalent in the run-up to the voting (just like real government ).

For an example as to how this works, let's say MCTC wants to get back at MAESTRO for some slight.  They forward their member of the Old World Royalists as council candidate and get the Secretary of Commerce portfolio.  For their mandate (say 2 months), they propose a tax on textiles coming from MAESTRO holdings.  This goes to the house and prior to voting, MCTC gives a bribe to members of the EWTC to vote for their proposal, which passes.  MAESTRO now has to pay a small tax on revenue from their textile holdings (which is essentially just a DB sink that disappears) for the 2 month period.

At the next sitting of the house, MAESTRO forwards their member as a New World Republican council member and get Secretary of the Navy.  They propose a reduction of naval escorts for MCTC trade fleets (no navy class 4 or above).  They bring that to council and bribe EWTC members to vote with them.  For the next 3 months, MCTC trade fleets are now at a bit more of a risk of pirate attack.

Obviously there would have to be some limitations as to how detrimental a proposal can be, but you get the idea.

Plus it is a great opportunity for someone to make a MOC of an opulent House of Lords chamber as a centerpiece build for ESL.

That is my 2 dbs.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Kwatchi

[Capt Wolf]

20 minutes ago, Kwatchi said:

First off, as an outsider, this has been a fascinating read so far.  It does seem to be becoming overly complicated though.  May I make a suggestion? Keep it simple and open ended.

RP-wise, why not set-up Eslandolan House of Trade Lords (or some such) rather than multiple sub-councils, and just have political blocks representing different interests with the mad King as the titular head.  Not only does this give RP'ers the chance to play as royalists (which seems to be lacking in your current set-up), you get a chance for inter-block tension as trade lords try to curry favour between different members to gain an advantage.  It also opens up a future opportunity for the King to attempt to regain power through political coersion if you need a story hook. 

As for gameplay, each block can vote one of its members to a High Council, with four roles to play: Secretaries of State/Commerce/Army/Navy or whatever.  Should there be no player interested in being part of one of the four blocks, that High Council role goes to an ineffective NPC (who random rolls their vote); tie breaks by the ESL faction leader who gets to RP the King.  The council roles can be chosen through voting of the five members,  though randomly might be fun too. Each Secretary proposes one mandate for their ministry.  High Council proposals are placed before the House (well, players only in reality plus any NPC councillors) on a set basis, with bribes and blackmail prevalent in the run-up to the voting (just like real government ).

For an example as to how this works, let's say MCTC wants to get back at MAESTRO for some slight.  They forward their member of the Old World Royalists as council candidate and get the Secretary of Commerce portfolio.  For their mandate (say 2 months), they propose a tax on textiles coming from MAESTRO holdings.  This goes to the house and prior to voting, MCTC gives a bribe to members of the EWTC to vote for their proposal, which passes.  MAESTRO now has to pay a small tax on revenue from their textile holdings (which is essentially just a DB sink that disappears) for the 2 month period.

At the next sitting of the house, MAESTRO forwards their member as a New World Republican council member and get Secretary of the Navy.  They propose a reduction of naval escorts for MCTC trade fleets (no navy class 4 or above).  They bring that to council and bribe EWTC members to vote with them.  For the next 3 months, MCTC trade fleets are now at a bit more of a risk of pirate attack.

Obviously there would have to be some limitations as to how detrimental a proposal can be, but you get the idea.

Plus it is a great opportunity for someone to make a MOC of an opulent House of Lords chamber as a centerpiece build for ESL.

That is my 2 dbs.

Kwatchi, glad to hear that we're succeeding in entertaining the other factions!   And, seriously, thanks for your input! You do hit upon something that I like: that there needs to be a continued emphasis in some fashion on the power of the trade companies.

[gedren_y]

@Garmadon's ideas for our internal EGS management system seem reasonable enough. All I was describing was the in-character government.

How about I give more details about what I was thinking:

The Continental Council (characters controlled for actual government story purposes by the leadership): 12 seats comprised of 3 Royal Family seats and 9 continental province seats. Mostly nobles will sit in their province's seat, but non-nobility can hold seats if elected.

The Colonial Council (characters controlled for actual government story purposes by recognized Eslandola members): Number of seats to be determined by the islands' population (number and size of settlements) plus 9 seafarers' seats. Those seafarers' seats would begin by being occupied by (in-character) 2 each for the three TCs with the remaining 3 would go to independent traders. When we determine how many seats the islands get, they would be filled by the people of their region. New settlements that reach a certain point would add seats to this council. The mix of seafarers' representation would be subject to change in a new election, just like the regional seats.

The Premier Magistrate (controlled by the leadership): Will be the chief executive, set national policy, and staff the executive branch (Minister of Justice, Minister of Trade, Minister of Defense, the Diplomatic Service, etc). That executive branch staff could take the place of the failed High Council of Trade idea. My initial idea of the electoral college was a bit too complex, so I'm open to election suggestions that preserve the constitutional monarchy model.

For our judiciary, I'm open to suggestions.

Kai's suggestion on the responsibilities is still the best I've seen.

[Bregir]

Interesting discussion. I have only one comment. Remember to take in consideration the activity level of the playerbase. You have three TC's, each consisting of a handful active players or so, plus a few unaffiliated. If you open up three positions for each TC, and 9 for independents, everybody is going to have a seat.

[Capt Wolf]

15 minutes ago, gedren_y said:

The Colonial Council (characters controlled for actual government story purposes by recognized Eslandola members): Number of seats to be determined by the islands' population (number and size of settlements) plus 9 seafarers' seats. Those seafarers' seats would begin by being occupied by (in-character) 2 each for the three TCs with the remaining 3 would go to independent traders. When we determine how many seats the islands get, they would be filled by the people of their region. New settlements that reach a certain point would add seats to this council. The mix of seafarers' representation would be subject to change in a new election, just like the regional seats.

Regarding size of the Colonial Council, I have to agree with Bregir: the size is too big for the player base. I think 1 seat for each TC instead of 2, and 1 seat for independent traders instead of 3, would work better. Additionally, 1 seat for each region of colonies (currently 3, but presumably will grow). That gives us 7+, which would be about half of the 12-15 active players in the faction right now.

16 minutes ago, gedren_y said:

The Premier Magistrate (controlled by the leadership): Will be the chief executive, set national policy, and staff the executive branch (Minister of Justice, Minister of Trade, Minister of Defense, the Diplomatic Service, etc). That executive branch staff could take the place of the failed High Council of Trade idea. My initial idea of the electoral college was a bit too complex, so I'm open to election suggestions that preserve the constitutional monarchy model.

I actually think the Premier Magistrate shouldn't be controlled by leadership, nor set policy, but should be able to prompt the councils to consider issues if necessary. The colonial council (with strong TC representation) will be the real power (and the continental council is leadership's check on the players). The PM would be beholden to the councils, so couldn't actually set policy and such, but would be able to carry it out with a cabinet of characters from other players. Something to consider: in this scenario, would a player/character be able to fill both a cabinet role and a seat in the council?  

[Tezclatipoca]

Thank you for the clarifications Kai, Gedren and Garmadon !

The debate resulting in this topic is really interesting. I am happy to see we are interesting other faction players. Like Bregir said, I don't think it is the purpose of the council to welcome every Eslandola member... Reducing the amount of sieges seems a better option. And I like the way Kwatchi presented his thoughts.

great to see that debate develops !

And don't worry guys ! There will be more apples soon !

[Kolonialbeamter]

5 hours ago, Kai NRG said:

It's true that we haven't really exploited the full potential (or even part of the potential) of the original design.  But the problem is that the original design really has nothing behind it.  All those positions are just empty names, and there's no sort of structure as to how a full High Council would actually work.  Who would make what decisions?  We have no clue.  So we'd have to have some sort of structural discussion anyways, and it seems better to start from the ground up with a basic design that we can all agree on, rather than try to shove what we want to see done into an old structure.

Having been in a similar situation, I have to agree with Kai. Instead of trying to squeeze your governing needs into a theoretical, preconceived concept, it's way more practical to first define what you want done and then create institutions and positions around it. Even if this means that the one or other king gets to walk the plank in the process  

2 hours ago, Kwatchi said:

*snip*

I do like the scheming potential here. IMO, this would be very much the way I had imagined ESL in the beginning - rich, with powerful TCs, but politically hopelessly divided. To add to this, you guys could introduce different rates of taxation, say 0%, 5%, 10%, 20%, which have to be paid (or not paid) by citizens, TC1, TC2, TC3 (I have no clue how many TCs you ESLs have) over a fixed period of time. So the goal of the elected representatives would be to make sure their own voters have to pay as little tax as possible, and that the TC you hate so much has to pay the most. For their scheming abilities those representatives could even be rewarded by the voter base. Then, at the end of that legislative period, the clock is being reset.