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For those interested here are two cutaways showing the essence of the suspension setups. At the heart of the setup is the middle suspension arm just beneath the CV-joints to which the springs are attached. This arm could only be placed there because the suspension travel is limited to two studs. In the back side you see the yellow catches that secure the torsion bars (axles holding the upper wishbones). At the front side you see the anti-roll bars.

Front suspension:

1280x480.jpg

Rear suspension:

1280x480.jpg

Edited by Didumos69

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Looks very interesting!Which scale is this? 1:8 or 1:10?
Can't understand from the description..

Edited by Aleh

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53 minutes ago, Aleh said:

Looks very interesting!Which scale is this? 1:8 or 1:10?
Can't understand from the description..

It's 1:8.

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Ahhh okay,  now that makes perfect sense.  I noticed when I set up torsion bar properly (or well corrected it still wasn't perfect)  on the fxx it raised the front from its slouched location that it was used to sitting.  As for the cv joints I've noticed they're a bit of a weak point and tend to pop out if put under stress,  one thing I've found that help this issue on the front is Gearing down ( when using the servo)  or limiting the turning radius like the Porsche although preferably not as much as they did :p 

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Very interesting framework. Seems quite original! btw, this car would be awesome motorized ?

Edited by Lox Lego

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@Didumos69: I assume the cardan tunnel consisting of frames is just preliminary? Or are you preferring to have max chassis stiffness and then design everything else around? Where do you want to put the gearbox? Being a kind of realism fanatic I´d recommend to keep the cardan as narrow as you can get, probably 5 studs only (seats 7 studs wide?). E.g. I don´t like when builders put almost everything between the seats and/or under the (too small) seats - looks unrealistic when the seats are far away from each other plus having a high dividing wall between. I have to admit though that maybe I go too far with my models regarding this issue, causing the chassis twist a bit around the longitude - not everybody likes it, but :def_shrug:...

1 hour ago, Lox Lego said:

Very interesting framework. Seems quite original! btw, this car would be awesome motorized ?

I guess this one is designed to be a full manual car only with all the possible rings and bells. Building a manual car MOC seriously for the first time myself, I can say it has its own very special challenges which you don´t encounter in motorized models, such as using as few parts as possible while creating rigid and complete structures, striving for proper building in the style like official models from TLC are made (or should be made :wink:)... Of course it´s not impossible to motorize any manual car, but may seem too easy on the first glance - easier to start a specified chassis from scratch IMO.

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On 11/19/2016 at 6:19 AM, Rishab N said:

Interested to see where this will go especially with your attention to detail and clever solutions

 

1 hour ago, Lox Lego said:

Very interesting framework. Seems quite original! btw, this car would be awesome motorized ?

Thank you guys! The frames connecting the suspension modules are temporary, I only wanted to get an impression of the combined suspension modules. Evwmtually, I want to have no more than 5 studs between the seats.

For now motorizing is not planned, I don't even have a singlenmotor, but it's certainly something in the back of my mind.

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1 hour ago, brunojj1 said:

@Didumos69: I assume the cardan tunnel consisting of frames is just preliminary? Or are you preferring to have max chassis stiffness and then design everything else around? Where do you want to put the gearbox? Being a kind of realism fanatic I´d recommend to keep the cardan as narrow as you can get, probably 5 studs only (seats 7 studs wide?). E.g. I don´t like when builders put almost everything between the seats and/or under the (too small) seats - looks unrealistic when the seats are far away from each other plus having a high dividing wall between. I have to admit though that maybe I go too far with my models regarding this issue, causing the chassis twist a bit around the longitude - not everybody likes it, but :def_shrug:...

I guess this one is designed to be a full manual car only with all the possible rings and bells. Building a manual car MOC seriously for the first time myself, I can say it has its own very special challenges which you don´t encounter in motorized models, such as using as few parts as possible while creating rigid and complete structures, striving for proper building in the style like official models from TLC are made (or should be made :wink:)... Of course it´s not impossible to motorize any manual car, but may seem too easy on the first glance - easier to start a specified chassis from scratch IMO.

I agree it's a different challenge to build a manual car, even though I never build a motorized vehicle, but at this stage I think it can still go either way.

The mid section is indeed temporary and the mid console will be smaller, 5 studs wide, but will remain to be part of the main structure running along the length of the car.

I'm currently working on the full drive train with 4-speed sequential gearbox and V8/V10-engine. My objective is to have a gearbox that is not wired through the entire car as we often see, but is more of an independent module. But this will be quite hard to achieve, because it needs to sit behind the seats and half underneath the engine, so it has to be flat. Along the way I will make the midsection of the chassis.

Edited by Didumos69

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And it won't be a suprise that I don't want red clutch gears to transfer drive on axles rotating at different RPM :wink:.

Edited by Didumos69

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Looking good..! Lots of great ideas..!

I had to put 1/2 bushings in as limiters on the axle my gear rack slides on so that it stops right before the point where the CV joints begin to fail when steered..

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On 11/20/2016 at 5:41 PM, Paul Boratko said:

Looking good..! Lots of great ideas..!

I had to put 1/2 bushings in as limiters on the axle my gear rack slides on so that it stops right before the point where the CV joints begin to fail when steered..

Thanks! I guess I will have to put half bushings too.

I did some work on the drive train. Even though I've only planned for a 4-speed sequential gearbox, I do want to cover a wide range of ratios. So not something like 1:2.5 upto 1:1, but rather something like 1:3:5 upto 1:0.8. Another requirement is that I don't want red clutch gears to transfer drive on axles rotating at different RPM. This is a common practice, but from modding the Porsche I know it induces a lot of friction on the axles involved. When not engaged, red clutch gear should only make dummy rotations and not transfer drive. And finally it all has to fit underneath the engine and I don't want the gearbox to be wired through the entire chassis.

After some playing around in LDD I came up with a quite simple setup that takes full advantage of the integrated center differential. Taking into account the gearing around the front and rear diffs, the overall gear ratios will vary from 1:4.2 (first gear) upto 1:0.84 (4th gear). This means that in 4th gear the wheels rotate 5 times faster than in 1st gear. This is quite a lot, but it's equal to what the Porsche has and I like to see a clear difference between the 4 gears. Because the engine is placed right on top of the gearbox, I had to skip 16t gears inbetween the clutch gears and driving rings.

Now I have to design the casing and the gear shifting mechanism and test it in real life.

960x450.jpg960x450.jpg

Like always, comments and feedback are welcome! Here's the LXF-file of the gear layout.

Edited by Didumos69

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Looking so tasty :wub_drool:...  And I really like this one: 

15 minutes ago, Didumos69 said:

...a quite simple setup that takes full advantage of the integrated center differential...

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This looks great!  I love the idea of the central differential,  low and compact. No to see the whole thing drive ;) 

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On 22-11-2016 at 9:48 AM, brunojj1 said:

Looking so tasty :wub_drool:...  And I really like this one: 

20 hours ago, DugaldIC said:

This looks great!  I love the idea of the central differential,  low and compact. No to see the whole thing drive ;) 

Thanks! Unfortunately I'm having more trouble setting up the shifting mechanism...:sceptic:.

On 20-11-2016 at 5:41 PM, Paul Boratko said:

I had to put 1/2 bushings in as limiters on the axle my gear rack slides on so that it stops right before the point where the CV joints begin to fail when steered..

I used two half pins with a 1x1 flat round tile attached to them to avoid the CV-joints from getting stressed. It gives just a little more gear rack travel than half bushes. The max steering is now slightly better that the max steering angle of the stock Porsche.

960x450.jpg960x600.jpg

Edited by Didumos69

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Yea I hear you,  I'm having trouble integrating my transmission as mine has drive and output off centre.  I've almost got it worked out but it's definitely tricky! I'd like to see the gear layout a little more clear to see how it works, I might have to modify it for another build ;)  I'm using the principle of your stepper in my current build and it works great!  

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On 11/24/2016 at 4:14 AM, DugaldIC said:

Yea I hear you,  I'm having trouble integrating my transmission as mine has drive and output off centre.  I've almost got it worked out but it's definitely tricky! I'd like to see the gear layout a little more clear to see how it works, I might have to modify it for another build ;)  I'm using the principle of your stepper in my current build and it works great!  

Great that you're using the stepper principle. I'm curious how exactly, but I will be patient :wink:... Here are some close-ups of the gearbox and a cutaway showing the entire drive train (LXF-file of the drive train cutaway can be downloaded here). I don't think it will be suitable for motorizing though, because the subsequent gear ratios are quite far apart (1:4.2, 1:2.52, 1:1.4 and 1:0.84). I also incorporated 2 linear clutches between the central diff and the other 2 diffs. Just to be sure nothing gets damaged when the gearbox halts. Chances of double engaged gears are minimal, but during shifting there is always a short moment of having two clutch gears being 'half engaged' so there is always a small risk. I don't think much is going to change about this drive train. EDIT: I just noticed that the #2 connector above the central diff collides with the diff. This could be easily resolved by replacing the connected axles with a single 10L axle. I updated the cutaway-LXF accordingly.

800x450.jpg800x450.jpg800x450.jpg800x450.jpg800x450.jpg1280x480.jpg

I'v also been working on the gearbox casing in LDD a little. To leave enough space for the seats I had to downsize the engine from V10 to V8 and had to move the gearbox 2 studs backwards. To make room for the gearbox I also had to change the rear suspension module slightly.
 
And I figured out how the shifting mechanism is going to work. Essentially the shifting mechanism will be the same as in my compact stepper, only this time I separated the shift lever from the knob gears. The 90 degree limiter is wrapped around the shift axle itself. The movement of the shift lever is translated to the knob gears using liftarms. I still have to work on the bracing of the mid section, but a 5 stud distance between the seats still seems feasible. This is the current state:
1600x640.jpg
Edited by Didumos69

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Well hopefully you wont have to wait too much longer ;),   I've been busy and haven't had the time to build as much as I like.  What is this little linear clutches you're using,  I've never seen them but they seem like a good idea!  Those gear ratios are really far apart,  soo unless your first gear is geared down to a crawl it probably wouldn't work for motorized haha although it's never a bad thing to get ideas from it.  As I'm still figuring all that stuff out for myself.  The framework looks great, 5 studs between  the seats isn't too bad,  I'm going to have to work in 7 wide towards the bottom and narrow to 5 as my transmission is at the front and I'd still like to make a proper looking interior!  Teaser update for you,  it's front engine,  awd,  4speed sequential,  transmission just behind front suspension, sway bars,  and all motorized,  so far the front including the transmission is together rear is done but I have to join the two now!  

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On 11/25/2016 at 1:38 PM, Didumos69 said:

Great that you're using the stepper principle. I'm curious how exactly, but I will be patient :wink:... Here are some close-ups of the gearbox and a cutaway showing the entire drive train (LXF-file of the drive train cutaway can be downloaded here). I don't think it will be suitable for motorizing though, because the subsequent gear ratios are quite far apart (1:4.2, 1:2.52, 1:1.4 and 1:0.84). I also incorporated 2 linear clutches between the central diff and the other 2 diffs. Just to be sure nothing gets damaged when the gearbox halts. Chances of double engaged gears are minimal, but during shifting there is always a short moment of having two clutch gears being 'half engaged' so there is always a small risk. I don't think much is going to change about this drive train. EDIT: I just noticed that the #2 connector above the central diff collides with the diff. This could be easily resolved by replacing the connected axles with a single 10L axle. I updated the cutaway-LXF accordingly.

------

I'v also been working on the gearbox casing in LDD a little. To leave enough space for the seats I had to downsize the engine from V10 to V8 and had to move the gearbox 2 studs backwards. To make room for the gearbox I also had to change the rear suspension module slightly.

And I figured out how the shifting mechanism is going to work. Essentially the shifting mechanism will be the same as in my compact stepper, only this time I separated the shift lever from the knob gears. The 90 degree limiter is wrapped around the shift axle itself. The movement of the shift lever is translated to the knob gears using liftarms. I still have to work on the bracing of the mid section, but a 5 stud distance between the seats still seems feasible. This is the current state:
------

That is looking slick! I love these renders you're producing too. Keep it up!

On 11/25/2016 at 5:58 PM, DugaldIC said:

Well hopefully you wont have to wait too much longer ;),   I've been busy and haven't had the time to build as much as I like.  What is this little linear clutches you're using,  I've never seen them but they seem like a good idea!  Those gear ratios are really far apart,  soo unless your first gear is geared down to a crawl it probably wouldn't work for motorized haha although it's never a bad thing to get ideas from it.  As I'm still figuring all that stuff out for myself.  The framework looks great, 5 studs between  the seats isn't too bad,  I'm going to have to work in 7 wide towards the bottom and narrow to 5 as my transmission is at the front and I'd still like to make a proper looking interior!  Teaser update for you,  it's front engine,  awd,  4speed sequential,  transmission just behind front suspension, sway bars,  and all motorized,  so far the front including the transmission is together rear is done but I have to join the two now!  

Stoked to see your car complete Bro!

Edited by Milan
Removed quoted images.

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Looks good. Pretty nifty how you extended the engine mount in the front to connect to the gearbox with the gear inside.

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2 hours ago, DugaldIC said:

Well hopefully you wont have to wait too much longer ;),   I've been busy and haven't had the time to build as much as I like.  What is this little linear clutches you're using,  I've never seen them but they seem like a good idea!  Those gear ratios are really far apart,  soo unless your first gear is geared down to a crawl it probably wouldn't work for motorized haha although it's never a bad thing to get ideas from it.  As I'm still figuring all that stuff out for myself.  The framework looks great, 5 studs between  the seats isn't too bad,  I'm going to have to work in 7 wide towards the bottom and narrow to 5 as my transmission is at the front and I'd still like to make a proper looking interior!  Teaser update for you,  it's front engine,  awd,  4speed sequential,  transmission just behind front suspension, sway bars,  and all motorized,  so far the front including the transmission is together rear is done but I have to join the two now!  

That sounds really cool! A whole lot of things packed under the hood, must be a car with a noteworthy front :sceptic:. I used the linear clutch as a replacement of the white clutch gear in the Porsche to remove some unnecessary gear meshes.

800x320.jpg

1 hour ago, Lox Lego said:

That is looking slick! I love these renders you're producing too. Keep it up!

Thanks! I wasn't near my LEGO the last few days, so I had to make do with LDD, but I'm eager to continue the real life build.

1 hour ago, Meatman said:

Looks good. Pretty nifty how you extended the engine mount in the front to connect to the gearbox with the gear inside.

The gear inside idea comes from @Paul Boratko's Scorpion CK-R.

Edited by Didumos69

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Ahh very clever,  I'm sure that works great for an HOG model however I'm not too sure it'll stand up to the tourque of two xl motors :p. Very clever concept though,  compact and no need to gear something for it to clutch. You shall see ;) I'm sure you already have thoughts on what it might be.  Also I really like how you moved the shifter from the stepper,  cool solution! 

Edited by DugaldIC

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14 hours ago, Didumos69 said:

That sounds really cool! A whole lot of things packed under the hood, must be a car with a noteworthy front :sceptic:. I used the linear clutch as a replacement of the white clutch gear in the Porsche to remove some unnecessary gear meshes.

800x320.jpg

This would work for very limited amount of time until there's friction. I remember one of Nico CVT 4x4's had similar implementation to switch between two operation modes. After a while system wasn't working as intended and produced constant torque instead of variable.

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3 hours ago, zux said:

This would work for very limited amount of time until there's friction. I remember one of Nico CVT 4x4's had similar implementation to switch between two operation modes. After a while system wasn't working as intended and produced constant torque instead of variable.

I suppose that was a motorized build. It's probably better to not use this at all in a motorized function. I use this for a push-along model and only to deal with a halting gearbox during shifting if that happens at all. The drive train itself is smooth enough to not cause the clutches to slip.

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