Shipwrights Guild Hall (WIPs, feedback, and advice)

[Garmadon]

22 hours ago, Bregir said:

Fractional gun-port sizes? Here you go:

It's not that hard to build, but structural integrity does suffer somewhat, as the number of studs connection the sides to the decks decrease considerately, especially with 4 studs between gun ports.

 

 I love half stud offsets (half and quarter plate offsets are even neater though ) - remind me to do that whenever I get around to building a ship with gunports!  Very nice, by the way - I hope you do tile the decks though  

Finishing up another ship here myself, but not for BoBS, unfortunately 

 

[Captain Genaro]

On ‎1‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 9:48 AM, Bregir said:

I am liking the lines of that hull. When can we expect to see more or her? Also, have you entirely emptied the market of hinge plates? On my ship-sloop I found that I need an insane amount to get anything like structural integrity. (And could definitely use more, if I had them...)

Hopefully I'll have some time to work on her this weekend and show you some updates.

As for the massive amount of hinge bricks and plates my design requires, that's what LUGBULK is for.

[Legostone]

Just started another Frigate, 36 guns (22 on the gundeck, 14 above (I know it is a little less conventional, but I made a mistake planning the order for dk red bricks so I had to improvise)), same style as La Raya Venenosa, although with a less aggressive tumblehome to allow more space on the upper deck. It is also a little bit taller as that was criticised with La Raya Venenosa. I also plan on fixing a couple issues I had with the masts on the other one (lower part of the mizzen too tall, lower part of main and foremast too small, wrong shape for the gaff) that weren't noticed to my knowledge. Sadly I won't be able to make sails for this one just yet, as I'm currently out of supplies and, as I want to redo the sails, masts and rigging on the other one too, which will take a while, so I'll most likely finish it without sails for the time being and present it much later again with together with the updated La Raya Venenosa. So, here are the WIP pics:
(old):

Spoiler

 

new:
Update: added quarterdeck. 10 guns there, 4 more in the forecastle to go! I guess I should be able to start the rigging tomorrow. Now it feels bigger than the other one as intended:D

Edited January 21, 2017 by Legostone

[kurigan]

@Legostone

I like the red on red color scheme. I'm less a fan of the tan window frame gun ports. Something about her has been bugging me all day though. I really had to stare closely to put my finger on it, but I think I finally hit the nerve. I think the mizzen is to far forward. Swap the wheel and the mizzen around and I'm sure it'll balance out. 

 

You could try paper sails. With a spray bottle of water and a box fan, and you can mold them to look wind blown. 

[Legostone]

7 hours ago, kurigan said:

I like the red on red color scheme. I'm less a fan of the tan window frame gun ports.

1

I might not be the best with deciding on colours, but once I've decided on something (or spend 6€ on tan window frames) I'll keep it if I like it, and I still do. The tan borders around the gunports will remain (except someone decides to send me 22 black or red ones free of charge )

7 hours ago, kurigan said:

Something about her has been bugging me all day though. I really had to stare closely to put my finger on it, but I think I finally hit the nerve. I think the mizzen is to far forward. Swap the wheel and the mizzen around and I'm sure it'll balance out. 

 

 

I've moved it two studs back, I hope that was enough, more would require a bigger rework of the area around the stern.

7 hours ago, kurigan said:

 

You could try paper sails. With a spray bottle of water and a box fan, and you can mold them to look wind blown. 

I've decided on no sails or cloth sails for my ships, and this one will eventually get cloth sails, just not in the near future. It'll get them once I rework La Raya Venenosa:P

 

So, here is the update:

Steering wheel further forward. If I move the mizzen any further back I'll have to reposition the guns here as they would interfere with the rigging (isn't as much of an issue around the main, as there is much more space). These images finally show that is actually bigger than the other one, I think on the previous ones it looked about the same in size.

I should've put something below the sails while gluing my sails for previous ships, now my desk is a bit damaged... Also: Stern. Simple, almost no decoration. I might add a little bit, but not much.

Now, another part that was bugging me: The Headrails. The lower rail is now much closer to the sides of the Beakhead, and the upper one runs in a curve instead of straight as it was before.

Not sure about the figurehead just yet, but I think it is much better than my first try:D

Also, please ignore the tiny ships in the background. Nothing to see there:D

Edited January 21, 2017 by Legostone

[cb4]

@kurigan has a good eye - the mizzen was definitely way too far forward. I think it would benefit from having both the main and the mizzen a bit further back, but I understand the tricky problems of changing something like that at this stage. I believe that generally ship-rigged vessels had the mainmast somewhat aft of the hydrodynamic center of pressure so that if the mizzen was lost (it being the smallest and weakest mast), the ship could still point up into the wind to some extent.

Otherwise I think it's looking really good! I feel like it's minifig-illusion-illusion scale now, with the closely packed guns, but I don't think it detracts from the ship at all.

[Legostone]

1 hour ago, cb4 said:

@kurigan has a good eye - the mizzen was definitely way too far forward. I think it would benefit from having both the main and the mizzen a bit further back, but I understand the tricky problems of changing something like that at this stage. I believe that generally ship-rigged vessels had the mainmast somewhat aft of the hydrodynamic center of pressure so that if the mizzen was lost (it being the smallest and weakest mast), the ship could still point up into the wind to some extent.

Otherwise I think it's looking really good! I feel like it's minifig-illusion-illusion scale now, with the closely packed guns, but I don't think it detracts from the ship at all.

 

Will certainly remember that for my next vessel of this type, but I think it is still alright. I guess I had the almost central main mast from a Galleon stuck in my mind that made me place the main like this. Next ship will have it further aft ;)

Yeah, the scale is quite small, but it allows me to build my ships compact enough to build a bunch of them (not that I don't have a couple giants sitting around, nor are these really that small) while still keeping somewhat good proportions (the gunport:space between gunport ration remains at around 1:2 with the windows which is fine, and the hull at around 2kg is still somewhat easy to move (and this one is finally sturdy another to easily carry it around.

While I wouldn't do it all the time, I can pick it up by the main mast with the shrouds installed now. Photo is shaky as it is always a scary thing to do the first time you test it on a ship:P

And here is the current state:

Lower shrouds done, stern still needs a rework with the windows being to low, rest of the rigging is still missing as well. Getting there!

[kurigan]

It’s nothing “wrong” about it. Now it is much improved though. It’s interpretative of a type, but not a model of a specific class or vessel, so it can be what it has to, to fit your needs. Any number of excuses could be made from “it’s just BoBs” to “That’s the way the ship’s master wanted it, he’s got some strange ideas about mast configurations.” Who knows, it might have been some tiny, back-water shipyard’s idea of innovation. Just put a gigantic spanker and a big-ol ensign on it and it’ll look good, IMHO.

 

You might forgo a figurehead altogether. The rest of the ship is pretty Spartan.

[cb4]

Yes, there's definitely nothing wrong with it. However, if you do decide that you want the mizzen to look further back, you could just rake it backwards slightly more rather than changing where it is stepped.

[kurigan]

On 1/21/2017 at 5:28 AM, Legostone said:

I might not be the best with deciding on colours, but once I've decided on something (or spend 6€ on tan window frames) I'll keep it if I like it, and I still do. The tan borders around the gunports will remain (except someone decides to send me 22 black or red ones free of charge )

What part number is that?

I doubt in dark red, but do recall I run a store, I just might have em.

[Legostone]

1 minute ago, kurigan said:

What part number is that?

I doubt in dark red, but do recall I run a store, I just might have em.

 

 

60592, but you don't seem to have them there.

I think I have something for you again (not up to date, but it still the same situation):

The rigging might not be the tightest in some places, but it certainly holds up very very well. Tipping it by the masts easily works as well.

Last update for the weekend, I'm hoping to finish up the rigging and final details next weekend. The only thing that has changed from that picture is that I've tightened the backstays (the forestay was basically causing a chain reaction of pulling the mast forward)(also excuse the terrible quality, some setting where off)
I've also tried out removing the silver from the stern and replacing it with tan (going with the minimal decorations elsewhere and the tan gunports), what do you think? I think it is still missing some details, but I'm not sure which kind of detail. Any good ideas for which parts to use?

[kurigan]

@Legostone Looking good. That's the way to do it! The key is the bobstay. That's gotta be firmly anchored so you can really pull tension down and then you can fight that chain reaction with the backstays, like you say you've already done. 

I rather like her without any embellishments, just the black and red. very Republican France like; makes me think of Acheron from the movie.

You've got enough space. If you put together two more long guns you could do stern chasers, which fills the space above the gallery. Then a simple name plate below the windows wold make her look plenty well decorated.

Yeah they're not in inventory, but i always have a back stock too. unfortunately though, I've just been through it and still none, sorry mate.

[Bregir]

Looks great, LS! A question, though. How have you fixed your futtock shrouds? Or do the shrouds themselves hold on to the tops?

On my corvette, the lower masts are fixed, and I can lift it by those, but I am not sure how to achieve similar strength for the topmast shrouds.

Tips?

[kurigan]

@Bregir

Well you didn't ask me, but perhaps I'm feeling magnanimous, or maybe I'm just bored. So, I'm gonna chime in with my own experience and you can take or leave it. :) 

 

I've successfully used two methods for my futtock shrouds. The first was to lark's head them around the mast. On the first version of Ramcat, I actually built 4073s in to the mast for the purpose. On Nonesuch I built in 3482s with an axle through the middle. On Reckless it became apparent that such a configuration just wasn't going to work so I tried hitching the futtock shrouds right to the shrouds below. Remarkably it worked out quite well. Where I expected the main shrouds to deflect in an unsightly way, the tension kept them almost completely straight. They also seemed to find their own position at about 45 degrees and don't ride up anymore. With both configurations I too have as much stability. 

 

Side note: if you're going to "cheat" with internal reinforcing, be it of Lego or other elements, the top masts are the most likely place. If your rigging is doing it's job, it shouldn't be necessary though. 

 

So there ya have it, for however much you value my advice. Cheers mate!

[Legostone]

15 minutes ago, Bregir said:

Looks great, LS! A question, though. How have you fixed your futtock shrouds? Or do the shrouds themselves hold on to the tops?

On my corvette, the lower masts are fixed, and I can lift it by those, but I am not sure how to achieve similar strength for the topmast shrouds.

Tips?

 

Well, first - my fighting tops are of a quite sturdy construction (you can check them out in 3 variants, 6 wide, 8 wide and 10 wide in this LDD file), and the shrouds are first tied through the technicbricks and then also tied to the lower shrouds on smaller ship(like this one), or, on a bigger one, to the mast (although I think tying them to the shrouds could also work there). If you want to get more realistic you could also consider checking out real ships - as far as I can tell on the Victory they are either tied to the mast or only to the shrouds. On the USS Constitution it seems to be a very interesting construction as you can see here: first and secondly with another line connecting them to the channels I guess, but they are also connected to the shrouds.
I can still recommend the trick of having a string through the mast as some easy reinforcement, even a thin string can make a big difference if it goes through the 2x2 round bricks (especially if you are using older ones and don't have longer technic axles available).

[Bregir]

@kurigan: I value any constructive feedback and criticism, sir - and you have a lot of good ideas and extensive experience. However, my masts are made of technic connectors, so I can hardly build anything into the, I may simply try fixing them to the shrouds directly as per historical ships.

I am not, so far, expecting to cheat :)

[kurigan]

@Legostone I never noticed that before! They all connect to a single eye on a lead all the way down to the channels. That's insane, brilliant, but insane. The implications for stability are apparent. 

 

edit: i also never noticed/saw a port-o-pot on the focsle before. guess they don't want anyone trying to use the heads during a photo op!

 

@Bregir Oh in that case use a 6558. It not inaccurate, just not common. It's something I've really only seen on later period ships. Perhaps in an effort to have something like the added stability like Legostone points out on Constitution. In any case, as I've found, cheating isn't at all necessary, though I do find Legostone's idea of a simple string through the center of the mast quite clever. Going forward, when/if ever, I too am of a mind to stick with mounting to the main shrouds.  

[Bregir]

@Legostone: I've got a nice book with reference material, full of pictures like this:

My only concern is how well it will transfer to lego! :P

I would like to have similar strength in my topmasts as in my lower masts, but that will put some strain on futtock shrouds, topmast stays, and backstays. And the constitution solution might prove relevant, should fixing them to the shrouds itself not suffice.

@kurigan: I might do something like that on my next vessel, but for this one, the lower masts are outside creative reach. Fixed and set! :)

[Umbra-Manis]

Recently I've been working on my second ship of the game (since my first is still floating somehow). I still don't have a good building process or reference material for this ship, just going off a visual image. I've been trying to work out what to classify this thing as, as well as how to finish rigging it.

It's intended as a trade ship, with 4 guns. The remainder of the ports are unused. 

[Legostone]

6 minutes ago, kurigan said:

@Legostone I never noticed that before! They all connect to a single eye on a lead all the way down to the channels. That's insane, brilliant, but insane. The implications for stability are apparent. 

 

@Bregir Oh in that case use a 6558. It not inaccurate, just not common. It's something I've really only seen on later period ships. Perhaps in an effort to have something like the added stability like Legostone points out on Constitution. In any case, as I've found, cheating isn't at all necessary, though I do find Legostone's idea of a simple string through the center of the mast quite clever. Going forward, when/if ever, I too am of a mind to stick with mounting to the main shrouds.  

2

Sadly I only noticed it just now, after I've already cut of the leftover string from my futtock shrouds. If I hadn't I would certainly be going with that technique (although I think it isn't too common, I haven't managed to see any other ships featuring that construction, let's see: USS Constellation - mast, HMS Trincomalee - shrouds, HMS Unicorn - no shrouds, HMS Victory - Mast, Charles W Morgan - mast, Dom Fernando II e Glória - mast, HMS Surprise/Rose - mast)

The string through the center doesn't have to be cheating - you could always use Lego string:P

[kurigan]

Constellation- Mast

@Legostone True.

@Umbra-Manis Well, it all depends on what you want to see. You see us going back and forth about what historic/realistic or not, but that's just us entertaining ourselves. I think you have a pretty good start here. Did you have any inspiration to begin with. a ship you saw else where, fantastic or not? The masts might be a bit thick and short. you could try a 1 X 1 mast and see how that suits.

[Garmadon]

14 hours ago, kurigan said:

@Bregir

Well you didn't ask me, but perhaps I'm feeling magnanimous, or maybe I'm just bored. So, I'm gonna chime in with my own experience and you can take or leave it. :) 

 

I've successfully used two methods for my futtock shrouds. The first was to lark's head them around the mast. On the first version of Ramcat, I actually built 4073s in to the mast for the purpose. On Nonesuch I built in 3482s with an axle through the middle. On Reckless it became apparent that such a configuration just wasn't going to work so I tried hitching the futtock shrouds right to the shrouds below. Remarkably it worked out quite well. Where I expected the main shrouds to deflect in an unsightly way, the tension kept them almost completely straight. They also seemed to find their own position at about 45 degrees and don't ride up anymore. With both configurations I too have as much stability. 

 

Side note: if you're going to "cheat" with internal reinforcing, be it of Lego or other elements, the top masts are the most likely place. If your rigging is doing it's job, it shouldn't be necessary though. 

 

So there ya have it, for however much you value my advice. Cheers mate!

I used the second method on my first ship as well (though they're not too visible in most of the pictures...), and found that it worked quite well (I had thought it might pull it the lower shrouds out too far or just slide up too).  Tying them to the mast instead is an interesting idea which simply hadn't occurred to me  

14 hours ago, Legostone said:

I can still recommend the trick of having a string through the mast as some easy reinforcement, even a thin string can make a big difference if it goes through the 2x2 round bricks (especially if you are using older ones and don't have longer technic axles available).

How long do they make those technic axles?  I've generally used them in my masts, but it takes three or four of my longest to make it all the way up, which unfortunately gives it a couple of weak points... my favorite method so far is to just use a more or less appropriately long flex tube (well, I've only got two identical ones and don't cut them, to tell the truth, so I've just got to hope that they're the right size  ).  I'd heard of the string trick as well, but it does sound like cheating... 

[Legostone]

1 minute ago, Garmadon said:

How long do they make those technic axles?  I've generally used them in my masts, but it takes three or four of my longest to make it all the way up, which unfortunately gives it a couple of weak points... my favorite method so far is to just use a more or less appropriately long flex tube (well, I've only got two identical ones and don't cut them, to tell the truth, so I've just got to hope that they're the right size  ).  I'd heard of the string trick as well, but it does sound like cheating...

 

Common sizes are 2 - 12 long, 16 and 32 exist as well, but those are quite uncommon.
The String doesn't even need to be that tight - it just needs to prevent the mast from breaking apart right in the middle, as swinging around should be prevented by the shrouds and stays (which works very well on this ship and all ships that I've built since November, not so well on the few surviving older ships (La Raya Venenosa and Oscuridad aren't as stable, Dark Spirit actually is due to its size, but I've given that one away))

Also, any hints to store ships? They take up so much space:P (And I still have a couple WIPs that are already bigger than all my currently built ships... Damn :P)

[Bregir]

@Umbra-Manis

I think you hull is looking really good. I like the idea of "fake" gunports for a trade ship, and the tumblehome of her sides is pretty good. A few suggestions. I would make the masts thinner, and taller. Right now, they seem a bit sqaut. Secondly, I would rework the stern and cabin, as it currently is very tall and blocky.

As to rigging, I would suggest looking up a real ship for some general ideas, for instance a brig or schooner, or perhaps a xebec, depending on the kind of rig you are looking for. I find that a real world reference vessel is a good way to get some proportions right, even if you are not going for completely replicating it.

Looking good so far - will be looking forward to seeing more. As to rating, I would say class 3 or 4 trade. :)

[Umbra-Manis]

@Bregir @kurigan

Thanks for the help!

I've lowered the cabin by about 2 bricks, and it helped the look significantly! I also switched to a 1x1 mast, and rigged it somewhat like a Xebec.