Shipwrights Guild Hall (WIPs, feedback, and advice)

[kurigan]

@Wellesley First off, thank you for the credit. *nod* 

Next: I think you may be in the wrong forum to be concerned with sail function, but never mind that. I stopped by casually and have been reading over, looking up and racking my brain about this question for an hour now. In my quest for greater understanding I've found precious little on lateen sails, but think I have some concept of how they work. In general it seems, that unless the sail was particularly large, most handling was done by dropping the yard down to the deck, making any necessary changes and re-hoisting the whole thing. With that in mind I don't really see a need for buntlines. Perhaps on a huge galley or particularly large xebec frigate, it would make things a little easier but even in such a case work on a given sail is not done while under the press of the wind. Either the entire vessel is turned off the wind or the yard being attended to is swung around to go slack. Working sail under pressure is only done in desperate situations where speed simply cannot be lost, but it's a reckless affair. So, it wouldn't matter what side they are on. Buntlines would lift the foot of a limp sail the same for either side and with the crew still needing to handle the fabric, any bias could easily be overcome with a bit of pushing and pulling.

Lateen sails are essentially the like Lug sails. The primary difference is that Lug sails are truncated and Lateen stretch out. I find the Wiki on Lug sails to be a decent starting point. There's an entry on Lateen sails, but talks more about the history and origins than the working or function. With Lug sails balanced and standing rigs stay on one side of the mast, deforming around in on one tack while filling competently on the opposite. this is why you see xebecs rigged like the yellow one in the painting so that some sails will deformed while others are full on any given tack. Many simpler rigs use a dipping system where by the yard can be swung around to either side of the mast to best serve on that tack.

The split sail in the drawing above is a clever way to achieve something similar with out having to handle the entire weight of the yard, sail and tackle every tack. Trouble is, I'v never seen anything like it anywhere else before. That's not to say my knowledge so complete that my ignorance invalidates the concept. It does illustrate the trouble with anecdotal evidence as well as why you'll see the same ships modeled time and again. You can torture yourself looking for more reference material or guess at an interpretation, which may be way off in the end, or you can pick up "Anatomy of a Ship" or purchase plans taken from admiralty records and know for sure what you're making is correct and sound in theory. I know things like Game Labs are tossed out as a great sources of "information" because of the wealth of shared images, but they're really not. Out of context it's just cute ideas nothing of real substance. Stick with NRG especially if you really want to find someone who can tell you more about a strange duck like that. 

The wind in the painting makes perfect sense to me. The Galley on the far left as well as the xebec on the far right have their sails "gull winged" out as the wind is very close to right aft, putting them at a speed disadvantage for this type of rig. The yellow xebec, center, seems to be taking advantage of this to press their attack, dashing in across the wind in hopes of taking the smaller xebec before the big galley can come down on them.

Well there it is. I have no idea how I get caught up in these things, perhaps I'm just susceptible to flattery. In any case, it's out here now, do with it as you wish.

Cheers!

Dave

[Bregir]

This was an intriguing question, and I too felt the need to investigate. There seems to be no overall consensus and many different suggestions to how it is done. It would also seem that the only real living examples are small dhows and similar, which may not be handled like a larger xebec.

My findings suggest the following:

• Many models and paintings suggest that most xebecs carried their lateen yards and sails on alternating sides. (First yard on starboard side of the mast, second on port, etc)
  Examples include your picture and the two below. This makes sense *if* the yards were not shifted round, but were sailed on the "bad tack". Both since this would always allow one of the main sails to be carried on the right tack for optimal performance, and since this will allow sailing gull-winged before the wind. (Like the galley on the left in your picture)
  
• Most sources seems to suggest that lateen yards are carried inside the shrouds, which has a few implications (the galley on the oil painting suggests otherwise, though, clearly carrying its lateens over the shrouds - I put this down to inaccuracy, as there is no way to get the sails from inside the shrouds to outside, or the other way round.)
  • Lateen yards could conceivably be raised to near vertical when going into the wind and shifted to the other side, although the very large lateens on a galley or xebex would likely be hard to handle through this manoeuvre in anything but light winds. Further it would also be a complex and time consuming process. My best guess is that if done, it would only be done if going for a long leg upwind, not during continuous tacking. In the latter case, most likely they would simply sail with the sails on the "bad tack" (pressing against the mast). I actually doubt it would make too much of a difference in performance. Additionally, any rigging connected to the lower end of the lateen yard would probably also have to be shifted, which again would make it a complex manoeuvre - so maybe it was really rarely done?
  • There is a limit to how gull-winged they could go, as the shrouds would hinder the yard from hinging out too much. This may be remedied somewhat by slackening of the shrouds on the lee side, but then the windward shrouds and any backstays would have to take the full strain.
    This could potentially be solved by having both inner and outer shrouds, which is my theory. When going close-hauled (upwind) out shrouds would be set, but when going down the wind, they would be slackened and inner shrouds and backstays would take the strain. This is pure speculation, though, and I can't make it out on any of the models or pictures I can find, but I think it would solve the issue. (Inner shrouds could potentially be replaced by a strong backstay, which could more or less solve the same issue)
    On the other hand, I have always heard lateens described as performing less than optimally downwind, which may in part be due to these issues.

Those are my thoughts. I might well investigate and consider further, and will let you know if I have any revelations!

[Wellesley]

Thanks for both the detailed answers.

Indeed, Buntlines seem to be too much, especially for this size. Might keep them for now to create the illusion of clutter and complexity.

3 hours ago, kurigan said:

Buntlines would lift the foot of a limp sail the same for either side and with the crew still needing to handle the fabric, any bias could easily be overcome with a bit of pushing and pulling.

Wouldn't they pull the leech inside (up) on one side, increasing the curvature and outside on the other, breaking the curvature?

3 hours ago, kurigan said:

The Galley on the far left as well as the xebec on the far right have their sails "gull winged" out as the wind is very close to right aft

Yeah, but at first glance it didn't seem to be the case. I thought (looking at the flags), that the xebec in the centre would have the wind most aft. But I have to admit, the flags are not the best indicator. Assumed that the galley and the right xebec sail before the wind, wouldn't that make the sail on the foremast of the centre xebec too filled with wind?
Besides that there is that typical twist from stern to hull, I see in many maritime paintings. The perspective upon the poop deck is different from the one upon the foredeck.

52 minutes ago, Bregir said:

Many models and paintings suggest that most xebecs carried their lateen yards and sails on alternating sides. (First yard on starboard side of the mast, second on port, etc)

That is what I probably will go for.

3 hours ago, kurigan said:

perhaps I'm just susceptible to flattery. 

Well, I keep that in mind, if ever I need a detailed opinion again:D

51 minutes ago, Bregir said:

I might well investigate and consider further, and will let you know if I have any revelations!

That would be great!

[kurigan]

@Bregir Thank you, that was very well put together, A bit better than my ramblings anyway 

On 5/6/2019 at 6:34 AM, Wellesley said:

Wouldn't they pull the leech inside (up) on one side, increasing the curvature and outside on the other, breaking the curvature?

While I've heard of trimming sail with bunt lines but they are really only for taking the weight of the sail while the men on the yard bundle the fabric up to reef or furl. 

 

On 5/6/2019 at 6:34 AM, Wellesley said:

Yeah, but at first glance it didn't seem to be the case. I thought (looking at the flags), that the xebec in the centre would have the wind most aft. But I have to admit, the flags are not the best indicator. Assumed that the galley and the right xebec sail before the wind, wouldn't that make the sail on the foremast of the centre xebec too filled with wind?
Besides that there is that typical twist from stern to hull, I see in many maritime paintings. The perspective upon the poop deck is different from the one upon the foredeck.

Well, it's also facing the wrong way and not only has it slipped around the shrouds in such a was that Bregir describes as quite impossible, but indeed the starboard fore shrouds seem to be competently missing. Perhaps battle damage has caused it to fly free and the artist is trying to depict that event in progress  Maybe they just though it looked cool. It's a common complaint, that artists seeking to make the players obvious to even the the simplest of lubbers, ignore the force of wind, in order to present a clear image of each nation's flag(s). I hadn't noticed before, more caught up in the foreground, but Bregir is quite right about the galley. Those sails are completely out in front of the masts and all their supporting mechanism. I suppose with a dipping type rig it's not impossible, but all the tackle would have to be re arranged around the shrouds et al to make it possible. Then, I don't know what the strain on the rigging would be like, but it doesn't seem like it's designed for that kind of force. Oh well, it's a nice painting for what it's worth.

[Wellesley]

8 hours ago, kurigan said:

While I've heard of trimming sail with bunt lines but they are really only for taking the weight of the sail while the men on the yard bundle the fabric up to reef or furl. 

 

That is new to me, thanks!

[TomSkippy]

I’m considering building several brig/class 4 ships in different styles. 

This is to help me think differently in my builds. So far, the styles I can think of are: TLC, Capt Green Hair, MocYourBricks, and my own. 

What are some other styles that I could consider trying?

[Wellesley]

Would be nice to know what exactly TLC (sets from the The LEGO Company?) and MocYourBricks refer to.

Here just some pictures of designs, that could work for a brig:

Several similar techniques but sometimes distinctive differences. I'd recommend to look at more pictures of each ship.

[Bregir]

19 hours ago, TomSkippy said:

I’m considering building several brig/class 4 ships in different styles. 

This is to help me think differently in my builds. So far, the styles I can think of are: TLC, Capt Green Hair, MocYourBricks, and my own. 

What are some other styles that I could consider trying?

I can propose three techniques (that may or may not be covered already above):

• Hinge based hull
  A fairly simple technique, where the sides are vertical (I haven't managed a reasonable tumblehome with this technique)
  Used here:
  
  And here:
  
• The SNOT design i used on the Ironsides. It is basically just plates with tiles mounted (loosely...) on a frame.
  
• Or the bent sides I use on this WIP: (A technique I often used after being enticed by @Legostone to try bending... It can with good results be combined with the hingeplate technique around the bow and stern.
  

Edited May 30, 2019 by Bregir
Damn you, keyboard shortcuts!

[Bregir]

Double post, for some reason...

[TomSkippy]

 

@Wellesley TLC does stand for The Lego Company. MocYourBricks is a youtube seen here

I’ve seen a couple of those ships, but not all, I need to up my search function game!

@Bregir For the Ironsides, are you using hinge bricks for the tumblehome?

Great suggestions!

Edited May 30, 2019 by TomSkippy

[Bregir]

Just now, TomSkippy said:

For the Ironsides, are you using hinge bricks for the tumblehome?

No. You could (should, perhaps).

Her sides are simply placed loosely on top of cheese slopes and leans inward. On the inside I have placed a few bricks that slide in between the inner frames and gives some stability, but in reality, if I tilt her to one side, the plates will fall off... :P
Once I am back home, I will see if I can get you a picture.

[TomSkippy]

22 minutes ago, Bregir said:

No. You could (should, perhaps).

Her sides are simply placed loosely on top of cheese slopes and leans inward. On the inside I have placed a few bricks that slide in between the inner frames and gives some stability, but in reality, if I tilt her to one side, the plates will fall off... :P
Once I am back home, I will see if I can get you a picture.

 

This emoji doesn’t quite convey the level of shock I’m feeling reading that your sides aren’t attached. Especially given she’s called “Ironsides” 

Edited May 30, 2019 by TomSkippy

[Bregir]

7 minutes ago, TomSkippy said:

Especially given she’s called “Ironsides

Can't be pierced, but will fall off in a moderate breeze...

[Professor Thaum]

On 5/30/2019 at 9:38 PM, Bregir said:

Can't be pierced, but will fall off in a moderate breeze...

You crook !!!

I'm shocked !

[Roadmonkeytj]

On 5/29/2019 at 7:31 PM, TomSkippy said:

What are some other styles that I could consider trying?

You might search for some of Sebeus's ships most of his had a definate "style".

I peticurlarly like this one by him.

 

 

 

On 5/30/2019 at 3:38 PM, Bregir said:

Can't be pierced, but will fall off in a moderate breeze...

I might have to start working on a ship mounted "wind cannon" to go up against your ironsides lol

[Wellesley]

So now I have to decide between five different gunport arrangements. Would like to gather some opinions.

The first would be a continuous stripe without any, but maybe in a darker colour and a diminution towards astern:

The second would be four gunports close to each other between the masts:

The third option are three gun ports in the fore part of the ship:

The fourth would be like above plus another gunport astern:


And finally the fifth would be to change nothing and keep all gunports, not thinking too much about scale and recoil or historical accuracy (at least I have not found a brigantine rigged ship, carrying 18 guns):

Of course I could move some gunports, if someone has a good idea, but the current design allows quick swapping of all the shown options.

[TomSkippy]

@Wellesley I prefer 1 or 5

What about having a little more space between the gun ports? Say only 6 per side?

[Bregir]

I prefer the fourth option, with the third one a close second.

The second one is my least favourite, as it seems to crowded around the middle.

[Ross Fisher]

As I mentioned on Flickr, I think two ports on each side would work best. That's mainly because I'm concerned about recoil and all the deck furniture (and getting around the boat). Two is enough for an armed merchant ship.

[kurigan]

@Wellesley I'd advise going with out ports entirely, unless you meant for them to be dumb show, in which case all of them. @Ross Fisher has the right of it; there is no space on deck for guns. I like her lines with out ports, but just because there are ports doesn't mean there have to be guns behind them. Fake gun ports were fairly common in history. You could put a few swivels and some small arms aboard and still call her "armed". 

[Ross Fisher]

5 hours ago, kurigan said:

Fake gun ports were fairly common in history

I did not realise. In that case, this discussion is wide open!

[Roadmonkeytj]

22 hours ago, Ross Fisher said:

I did not realise. In that case, this discussion is wide open!

It was common practice to "paint" extra gunports so that when viewed through a spyglass it would appear as if she had more guns.  Ive also heard off "dummy ports" being utilized where the outside hardware was there but the port did not open.

@Wellesley

Im quite fond of 1 and of 4.  However 5 also could work ... If not all guns were filled.  Also I read somewhere that some smaller ships would not carry enough guns for both sides.  So that could be an option as well

[TomSkippy]

A question for you guys. I'm working on one of many brig-sized ships (12-14 stud beam). I'm struggling with the bow. 

I can only really find 3 options:

Hinge based:

Built on top of a Lego bow:

See Wellesley a few posts up

Brick built:

I've tried each one. Hinge based looks okay, but the forward curve isn't great. It looks like a round wall (even with 3x1x1 curved slopes at the bottom). Is there any way around this? Any way to cover it up? Building on top of a Lego bow piece is ok, but the ship looks too tall and bulky for how I've designed her. Shortening it doesn't help since it messes with the overall curve of the ship. Brick built looks too jagged.

I realize shipbuilding with Lego is a compromise. But there has to be a better option. One of my primary goals is to preserve the gun stripe. 

Are there any other good ways of doing this?

I'm seriously considering painting the stripe on a Lego bow piece (that way it can sit lower on the ship)… is this heresy? I started this project thinking I could make an iconic Lego ship design. Maybe even one that becomes a standard for this sized vessel for mocs. Does recoloring Lego automatically exclude the ship from ever being that? Will it distract from some other new ideas/techniques incorporated in this build?

 

[Wellesley]

Maybe you could try a mix of hinges, brackets and round slopes like Wesley used on his Persephone:

 

[TomSkippy]

1 hour ago, Wellesley said:

Maybe you could try a mix of hinges, brackets and round slopes like Wesley used on his Persephone:

 

Interesting. I love the stripe. Still seems to have the “looks like a curved wall” problem. But that is another option.