Bregir

Shipwrights Guild Hall (WIPs, feedback, and advice)

Recommended Posts

The horizontal curve is looking nice, LM, but I'd like to see some vertical curve too. Your forward and aft guns are on the same level as the middle ones, it seems. It makes her look rather boxy, I think.

Further, I agree, those lower gunports are too low. In anything of a sea, or sailing under any wind, the lower decks will be flooded the moment she opens her gunports! Vasa, anyone?

140 guns seems like a lot - Basicly, only the largest Spanish sotls hit numbers in that range during the napoleonic wars, and I seem to remember they clocked in at around 124. Victory was rated at just around a 100 if I remember correctly.

Looking forward to following your progress.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Bregir: Ok. I think part of the problem is that I used bigger flaps so it kind of threw me off for proper spacing. I'll mess around with some vertical curves to give it some more realism and raise up the lower gun deck.

You're correct that the Victory was rated at 100 guns and that around 124 guns was usually the max. I'm taking some inspiration from the USS Pennsylvania, which was the largest sailing warship in terms of firepower - rated at 136 guns - even though she never actually saw combat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, LM71Blackbird said:

I'm taking some inspiration from the USS Pennsylvania, which was the largest sailing warship in terms of firepower - rated at 136 guns

Americans :p

The heaviest 1st rate ever was the Spanish ship Nuestra Senora de la Santisima Trinidad with 140 guns :p

About being the largest warship, I think those Chinese warships were bigger :)

Edited by Maxim I

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Maxim I said:

Americans :p

Lol. Didn't find that one in my research... cool! 

I'll still be basing mine off of the largest American sailing warship though... :grin:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Both of your 136/140 gun examples are from the very end of the age of sail (The Santisima was only upgraded to 140 guns in 1802, and the Pennsylvania wasn't launched until 1836!) so we are really pushing the outer edges of the BoBS timeframe, at least for the American. ;)

Looking at the American, she is actually almost without vertical curve (!) but I maintain that real ships have curves... :P

I like what you have done with the curve, LM, but you still haven't nailed it completely - it seems to have a kink in the middle. You should imagine the curve being the very bottom of a circle, so the steepest angles should be at the ends, while it should be almost flat near the middle. Does that make any sense? :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Bregir said:

Both of your 136/140 gun examples are from the very end of the age of sail (The Santisima was only upgraded to 140 guns in 1802, and the Pennsylvania wasn't launched until 1836!) so we are really pushing the outer edges of the BoBS timeframe, at least for the American. ;)

Looking at the American, she is actually almost without vertical curve (!) but I maintain that real ships have curves... :P

I like what you have done with the curve, LM, but you still haven't nailed it completely - it seems to have a kink in the middle. You should imagine the curve being the very bottom of a circle, so the steepest angles should be at the ends, while it should be almost flat near the middle. Does that make any sense? :)

"Pennsylvania" was obsolete before she was built (just look at her meaningless service record).

"Santisima Trinidad" was heavily up-armed and modified from her original state, and not a purpose-built 130+ gun vessel. Her record is likewise not exactly astonishing.

The similar-sized "Valmy" wound up being towed around by a steamship for shore bombardment if I remember correctly.

Gun counts always amuse me. Broadside weight is a far better metric for measuring power. In the case of the "Santisima" the last of her added guns provided little more than a flashy total number. :cannon: :cannon::cannon: :cannon: :cannon:

Agreed regarding the curve on the design in question. :thumbup:

7 minutes ago, Legostone said:

And then there are the british who planned (but cancelled) the Duke of Kent - a 5 deck, 170 gun warship.

Again, an obsolete design. They were wise to scrap it. Of course, modern-day youngsters can salivate over what might have been: a big fat target for ironclads. :grin:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Captain Dee said:

Again, an obsolete design. They were wise to scrap it. Of course, modern-day youngsters can salivate over what might have been: a big fat target for ironclads. :grin:

Well thats a perfect description :pir-laugh:

I think the largest SOTL worth considering would be an Ocean class:

800px-Ocean_class_ship_of_the_line.jpg

I think eventually I'll also build a first rate, but I think it'll be a couple years until that starts, and I'll probably pick an older vessel. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Bregir: I think I get what you mean... I play around with it some more.

 

I'm basing it off of the USS Pennsylvania, but she'll be far from a 1 to 1 model of it. As an American I'm just more biased towards American ships! :laugh: That, and I really enjoy building these behemoths and I want to improve my skill in building ships in general! I'll probably stick to 3rd rates as my max after this one... unless I get really ambitions and go for a 4-decker... :excited:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@LM71Blackbird The overall hull shape looks good, I agree with Bregir concerning the curve and I'd like too add that, unlike the new prefab bow/stern pieces, the stern above waterline wasn't rounded, it's more flat, like the old stern piece we had during the 90's.

11 hours ago, Maxim I said:

About being the largest warship, I think those Chinese warships were bigger :)

Hmm, when we talk of these gigantic ancient Chinese ships, we should know that in ancient China, the historic records were rarelly written by historians or men of science, in fact they were often written by men of letters, who didn't know anything about naval engineering and they often didn't bother to measure the ships they were describing, and like all good fictionists, the things they described were often exagerated. So, in the "historic" records, the large junks were often descibed as gigantic, long of hundreds of meters, taller than the highest tower, etc. And what's funny is these terms were also used to describe the European sail ships (mainly the Dutch and Portugese ships) of the same era, gigantic, hundreds of meters long... We know that's not true.:pir_tong2:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Maxim I said:

Well, this picture also came to my mind when I read Chinese warships, what a coincidence! 

There was a lot debates among Chinese academicians, currently they tend to admit that the size of Zheng He's treasure ships recorded in "historic records" is largely exaggerated. Their size should be around 70 x 20m, with 5-6 mast, their displacement should be 2500-3000tons. The treasure ship on the picture should represent the largest ship of Zheng He's fleet, with a displacement  of 10000 tons, and a length/width ratio of 1:2. Unfortunately, due to the limit of mechanical properties, a sail ship of this size is unsuitable for navigation, if it really existed, it should be served as a floating palace, moored in permanence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After much reworking and lots of building (with more to building to come!) here is how the HMS Resilience is looking so far. She is pierced for 120 guns on three decks and has another 14 on the top deck for a total of 134. Still have to add rigging, extra details and such, but this will be the final shaping of her.

27978185767_3171cd9e76_b.jpgHMS Resilience 8 by LM71Blackbird, on Flickr

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Definitely your best one yet, LM - nice work on the overall shaping and the quarter galleries are looking real nice. Looking forward to seeing her finished. As to feedback, I think your masts are getting too tall. Generally, the mainmast should be about the length of the ship, but yours are a bit longer. I think I would try shorting each part of the mast by 1/4 to 1/3.

The HMS prefix suggests a Royal Navy ship - are you looking to the faction to license her once done?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Bregir said:

Definitely your best one yet, LM - nice work on the overall shaping and the quarter galleries are looking real nice. Looking forward to seeing her finished. As to feedback, I think your masts are getting too tall. Generally, the mainmast should be about the length of the ship, but yours are a bit longer. I think I would try shorting each part of the mast by 1/4 to 1/3.

The HMS prefix suggests a Royal Navy ship - are you looking to the faction to license her once done?

Thank you! Your right, I'll shorten the masts a bit. 

For licensing, I'm not sure yet. The HMS prefix sounds so good for a ship like this. I've been looking at a tons of prefixes and haven't really found one better. PWS (private warship) sounds ok. IC they are being build in Quinnsville so I could do HMCS/CS/QVS (Her Majesty's Cocovian Ship/Cocovian Ship/Quinnsville Ship). With 39 stat points, a class 10 can be a very versatile ship to have... 

Has the court reached a decision on small vessels yet or are the deliberations still going on?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Working on a class 8 ATM, was wondering if anyone had some feedback. :pir-blush:

28040438717_ab79a0a84b_z.jpgDestroying Angel WIP by North White, on Flickr

The figurehead is a little large, but I like it. I'm also keeping the giant six shooters for cannons. :pir-tongue: The front still needs some work, however. 

29036925388_30b1c51377_z.jpgDestroying Angel WIP by North White, on Flickr

I did my best to give her some lateral curves, and I hope it shows.

28040438587_cfe503b028_z.jpgDestroying Angel WIP by North White, on Flickr

Thae Captain's Cabin is designed for large scenes on the interior. It will have 1 deck on top of it. I don't want to overdo it like some of my older vessels.

42008438515_aff59158f2_z.jpgDestroying Angel WIP by North White, on Flickr

It definitely needs more detailing. 

42008438435_33aaebdf29_z.jpgDestroying Angel WIP by North White, on Flickr

General thoughts? I'll be giving her string rigging and fabric sails. Altogether, I want this to be my best, and largest vessel yet. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Mesabi: Overall not a bad looking ship so far. A few comments that I have...

1. Bow - As I have been told in the past, the bowsprit should be more level with the top deck. Right now the ship would look a little off if you left it the way it is. I'd build the bow up to the height of the second deck at least before attaching the bowsprit. Raising it up might also help with the large figurehead and make it look more natural.

2. Masts - I don't see a issue with the mast placement, however I personally think she might look a little strange without a third mast of some sort. There should definitely be something in the empty space whether it be a complete 3rd mast or a Xebec style sail.

Other than that I think she's looking pretty good so far. Keep up the great work! I'm sure @Bregir will have something to say about it as well, but that's all from me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think with the six shooters, raising the bow isn't possible without a complete redesign unfortunately.

There is a third mast I added, It just wasn't on during the pictures I took. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Mesabi said:

I think with the six shooters, raising the bow isn't possible without a complete redesign unfortunately.

There is a third mast I added, It just wasn't on during the pictures I took. 

I get what your saying about the bow. Here is an example of what I'm talking about though:

39902638011_4cc470e417_z.jpgtroop transport 3 by LM71Blackbird, on Flickr

40174511871_9b73960f40_z.jpgtroop transport 6 by LM71Blackbird, on Flickr

The second version looks more realistic with the bow raised up. Either way though, I'm curious on how you finisher her up!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

@Mesabi

Ok, if you are serious about making this your best ever,and about giving her custom rigging, I also think you should make sure she is worth it (it is quite a lot of work, but worth it!) so allow me to speak frankly. It is all meant in a good tone, even if it feels less than pleasant to have one's work criticised. (But hey, better an unpleasant truth than a comfortable lie, right? ;) )

Box on a hull
You did the same with your other large ships - they all have a tendency to look like a "box on a hull". I think this is due to your construction technique. You tend to work very conservatively with one brick on top of the other. If you really want to develop as a builder, you have to start using slightly more explorative techniques.
Look for instance at @Bodi's recent (and very pretty) frigate as example.

  • Tumblehome
    See how he uses a simple technique to build tumblehomed sides. (Inward angle of the sides). There are many ways to do this, either by hinges, some internal technic hinges, sloped bricks, or bent sides. (and probably others I am missing.)
  • Lateral curve
    I do not really think your lateral curve shows - well, I can see you have tried, but I do not think you have succeeded. It still looks very boxy. This is very much connected to the next two points on my list. The lateral curve should be comparable to the part of an elipsis shown below the red line in the picture below. (Maybe slightly less pronounced for more modern ships.
    42196045034_82f5b3cbdd.jpg
    The curve should start from the lowest deck and carry through up all the decks.
  • Deck height
    All your decks are as high as tall as the floor of a house. First of all, decks were not that high back then, second, at the scale we are building, tall decks throw the proportions up completely! And you will not escape the "box-on-hull" look without sacrificing this tall deck height.
  • Colour use
    I appreciate your use of an alternative colour choice, but I think you should use the colours to accent the shape of the hull. Look at the black line or the blue detailing on Bodi's frigate and how the help accentuate the hull shaping.
  • "Clean" sides
    I wonder where you have the idea for those castle-like sides from. I have never seen a ship that had anything but "clean" sides, apart from a ladder or gun ports. I personally do not think it adds to the moc, but with tumblehome and a better lateral curve, who knows? It might be really cool. Right now, though, it looks more like a misguided effort to put in details in the wrong places.
  • Real life examples
    You would really help yourself if you took a look at some real life examples. I know you may not have the same wish for realism as others, but it will help you get an idea of what makes sense. Right now, I do not think you have a clear picture of what a sailing ship should really look like. (And why would you? ;) ) But it is easy to up-qualify yourself here.

And yes, this will mean a major redesign/restart of what you have done so far. Take from it what you will, but quality takes time and trial and error. Believe me, it pays off in the end! :)

EDIT: PS, you can maintain most of the height of the captains cabin. Due to the curve of the decks, there are more room for height there.

Edited by Bregir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Bregir Thanks for your advice. I do agree it's a little to boxy at the moment, so I think I'll strip it down to the first layer of gunports. 

I'll try to follow your advice as much as possible for the redesign. :pir-blush:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.