Shipwrights Guild Hall (WIPs, feedback, and advice)

[kurigan]

15 hours ago, Roadmonkeytj said:

If you are the smartest in the room, then your in the wrong room - confucius

 

Not sure if that's a dig or a compliment , but in either case, I thought I was in the room to talk about Lego ship building, which is what I wanna talk about. Not nit pick the obscure details, or get caught up in "brick" measuring contests. 

 

I wouldn't suggest raising the gundeck though, unless you want to cross that line. Bring it up half way and you have a different kind of awkward. Put it level with the cabin and you have a frigate. As is, it's still kind of BSB like. As always, your project, your call, just don't get me wrong 

 

Cheers!

Dave

[Bregir]

Everyone, please consider that this is a place for friendly debate about shipbuilding. This demands treating each other with mutual respect. Venture neither to give nor take offense. Some build for historical accuracy, some in the lego tradition, and some yet again somewhere in between. Here, there is room for all sorts, as well as individual preferences. Everyone can voice their own opinions, but must also respeoct the approach of other builders.

Loads of good ships in progress, I see! I have been sadly disconnected from this thread lately, but it's good to see the debate is still going. My own shipbuilding will hopefully soon pick-up again (I still have a mass of ships WIP)

@Count Vroskri

Your schooner looks like it is coming along nicely - I would suggest trying to smooth out the transition from the bow to the tumblehome, although that may not be easy.

@Roadmonkeytj

I think your enlarged and lowered BSB is looking real good. In terms of "realism" you have gotten the worst of the "box on hull" lego ship shape taken off by lowering the cabin. Rather than lowering it futher, you could go for a more galleon like look, where you have a curve from the cabin roof to the center (current height of deck) back up to the forecastle. This could be achieved by raising some of the railings, potentially letting the deck or some halfdecks follow the curve as well.

 

 

[Darnok]

3 hours ago, Bregir said:

 Some build for historical accuracy, some in the lego tradition, and some yet again somewhere in between.

What is with the weird, crazy or downright silly? Asking for the friend of a friend...

[Bregir]

1 minute ago, Darnok said:

What is with the weird, crazy or downright silly? Asking for the friend of a friend...

Should I have included "Or somewhere entirely out of the scale"?

[Roadmonkeytj]

21 hours ago, kurigan said:

Not sure if that's a dig or a compliment , but in either case, I thought I was in the room to talk about Lego ship building, which is what I wanna talk about. Not nit pick the obscure details, or get caught up in "brick" measuring contests. 

 

I wouldn't suggest raising the gundeck though, unless you want to cross that line. Bring it up half way and you have a different kind of awkward. Put it level with the cabin and you have a frigate. As is, it's still kind of BSB like. As always, your project, your call, just don't get me wrong 

 

Cheers!

Dave

Not a dig at all ... Implying I came to a room where there's more knowledgeable than me lol 

I toyed with the idea of adding a second gun deck but then like you said it veres drastically away from the BSB quite quickly at that point.  It's a good looking Lego ship and my fear is it will soon suffer the same fate that my black pearl did ... I will stare at it and stare at it and never be happy then modify it to the point it no longer resembles the set then eventually it will go to the parts bin lol. As it doesn't look like the real ship nor the Lego version.  I think I might like a frigate the narrow rear reminds me more of a galleon though.

20 hours ago, Bregir said:

I think your enlarged and lowered BSB is looking real good. In terms of "realism" you have gotten the worst of the "box on hull" lego ship shape taken off by lowering the cabin. Rather than lowering it futher, you could go for a more galleon like look, where you have a curve from the cabin roof to the center (current height of deck) back up to the forecastle. This could be achieved by raising some of the railings, potentially letting the deck or some halfdecks follow the curve as well.

I considered this as the narrow rear reminds me of that style of ship but I feel the ship is not decorative enough to be Spanish lol 

To both of you :

if I went more towards a light frigate I would need to lower the cabin and open the gundeck up correct?

or more towards a dutch frigate I would need to lengthen the rear cabin an add gun ports then add a second deck above that correct? Or am I muttling my reference pictures?

 

[kurigan]

A while back, maybe a matter of months or more, I remember seeing a clever use of parts on a brick-built gun carriage which made the wheels larger that 1 X 1 but smaller than 2 X 2. I think it was a BotBS build, a fort or other shore establishment if I'm not entirely mistaken. but I just can't recall. I could really use such a solution on Snake as the 6 pounders sit, just too low in the ports, but I really don't want to change the design. Does anyone have any idea what I'm on about?

 

 

[Count Vroskri]

10 hours ago, kurigan said:

A while back, maybe a matter of months or more, I remember seeing a clever use of parts on a brick-built gun carriage which made the wheels larger that 1 X 1 but smaller than 2 X 2. I think it was a BotBS build, a fort or other shore establishment if I'm not entirely mistaken. but I just can't recall. I could really use such a solution on Snake as the 6 pounders sit, just too low in the ports, but I really don't want to change the design. Does anyone have any idea what I'm on about?

 

 

I'm not sure, but certainly a good idea. Ill keep an eye out. 

Are those oar ports between the guns? I am thinking of putting some in my next moc. 

On 10/22/2020 at 9:59 AM, Bregir said:

Everyone, please consider that this is a place for friendly debate about shipbuilding. This demands treating each other with mutual respect. Venture neither to give nor take offense. Some build for historical accuracy, some in the lego tradition, and some yet again somewhere in between. Here, there is room for all sorts, as well as individual preferences. Everyone can voice their own opinions, but must also respeoct the approach of other builders.

Loads of good ships in progress, I see! I have been sadly disconnected from this thread lately, but it's good to see the debate is still going. My own shipbuilding will hopefully soon pick-up again (I still have a mass of ships WIP)

@Count Vroskri

Your schooner looks like it is coming along nicely - I would suggest trying to smooth out the transition from the bow to the tumblehome, although that may not be easy.

@Roadmonkeytj

 

 

Thanks for the feedback, I've finished here now. But I'm sure I can add that in at a later date. 

[kurigan]

13 hours ago, Count Vroskri said:

I'm not sure, but certainly a good idea. Ill keep an eye out. 

Are those oar ports between the guns? I am thinking of putting some in my next moc. 

Thanks mate. Indeed they are. This version of Snake, is the first time I'm insisting on sticking to my guns and going 100% model, no interpretation, no omissions, no excuses. If it was on the real thing, I'm working to include it. 

[Mesabi]

@Bregir, @kurigan, @Legostone

So, I was at my local thrift-store the other day, and I picked up these 2 1953 Pyro ship models. I bought them and built them, and I was wondering if y'all could tell me how good of a reference they would be. They look a little 'fat' to me, but I literally have never been on an actual sailing ship, and I was wondering if you could give me some advice if they'd make decent things to reference for ships going forwards. 

The Bon Homme Richard

Bon Homme Richard by North White, on Flickr

A Brig of War

Brig of War by North White, on Flickr

Brig of War by North White, on Flickr

More pictures on my flickr

[Count Vroskri]

3 minutes ago, Mesabi said:

@Bregir, @kurigan, @Legostone

So, I was at my local thrift-store the other day, and I picked up these 2 1953 Pyro ship models. I bought them and built them, and I was wondering if y'all could tell me how good of a reference they would be. They look a little 'fat' to me, but I literally have never been on an actual sailing ship, and I was wondering if you could give me some advice if they'd make decent things to reference for ships going forwards. 

The Bon Homme Richard

Bon Homme Richard by North White, on Flickr

A Brig of War

Brig of War by North White, on Flickr

Brig of War by North White, on Flickr

More pictures on my flickr

Nice models, they seem too wide for their length. Bonhomme Richard is a really interesting ship. Longer than a first rate, with a large amount of guns evenly spaced on the upper deck and the ones on the lower closely packed at the stern but not towards midships. Makes me wonder what they were thinking when they converted her. I'bit off. Way too tall, and 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Count Vroskri

[Mesabi]

1 minute ago, Count Vroskri said:

Nice models, they seem too wide for their length. Bonhomme Richard is a really interesting ship. Longer than a first rate, with a large amount of guns evenly spaced on the upper deck and the ones on the lower closely packed at the stern but not towards midships. Makes me wonder what they were thinking when they converted her. 

That's what I was thinking, they're quite wide, and having built a model of the cutty shark, they seemed way wider then I'd have expected. 

[Count Vroskri]

3 minutes ago, Mesabi said:

@Bregir, @kurigan, @Legostone

So, I was at my local thrift-store the other day, and I picked up these 2 1953 Pyro ship models. I bought them and built them, and I was wondering if y'all could tell me how good of a reference they would be. They look a little 'fat' to me, but I literally have never been on an actual sailing ship, and I was wondering if you could give me some advice if they'd make decent things to reference for ships going forward. 

For masts and yards they're OK, but I would say the hulls seem way too fat, as you said, but the shaping of the Hull, especially BHR, too tall and I can't see any ports for her 42 guns. The deck height increase on the brig looks very exaggerated too. 

 

1 minute ago, Mesabi said:

That's what I was thinking, they're quite wide, and having built a model of the cutty shark, they seemed way wider then I'd have expected. 

I also own several models of cutty sark, and I've been to see the ship herself, in London. She's quite slim, but an average between the two might be better. BHR was build around 1770s, so the length should be 3.47 x width. I don't know about, the brig, as I don't know the Era but they were wider than a normal ship. Hope that helped. 

All that said, I'd love to see you take on either of these (or both!). 

[Bregir]

18 minutes ago, Mesabi said:

So, I was at my local thrift-store the other day, and I picked up these 2 1953 Pyro ship models. I bought them and built them, and I was wondering if y'all could tell me how good of a reference they would be. They look a little 'fat' to me, but I literally have never been on an actual sailing ship, and I was wondering if you could give me some advice if they'd make decent things to reference for ships going forwards. 

They do seem bit chubby, but what you will find if you look up dimensions of the age of sail is that they are typically between 1:3 and 1:4 in beam vs. length, with the smaller vessels often trending towards the chubbier end of the spectrum. (Also depending on type of vessel of course - see below on the cutty sark)

That said, these do look like they have been "toyified" a bit, but it is really hard to make out from the pictures, as it may just be thwarted perspectives.

I don't think you would go too wrong basing something off these, although if in doubt, you may want to err on the side of length, rather than width. I typically go for about 1:4.

25 minutes ago, Count Vroskri said:

Longer than a first rate,

How do you figure this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Bonhomme_Richard_(1765)

Length: 46 m (or 152 fahrenheit, if you like to drink your stupid juice by the imperial gallon )

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Victory

Length: 69 m (186ft)

Those two are from roughly the same period. (In fact build the same year)

26 minutes ago, Count Vroskri said:

with a large amount of guns evenly spaced on the upper deck and the ones on the lower closely packed at the stern but not towards midships

It seems like we may be talking about two different ships? From what I can see on wikipedia, it seems like a perfectly normal distribution of armament for a frigate equivalent?

11 minutes ago, Mesabi said:

That's what I was thinking, they're quite wide, and having built a model of the cutty shark, they seemed way wider then I'd have expected.  

Cutty Sark and the other later clipper ships are quite different, as they were build for one purpose alone: Speed, and lots of it. They were carrying high value cargo, and being the first to reach home would be awarded with enourmous profits. This means sleek hulls, (relatively) low weight, and loads of sail area. So there are not really representative of the ships, particularly not the warships, of the period.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutty_Sark

Her ratio is a rather extreme 1:5.9

Even HMS Endymion, the fastest frigate of the time, clogged in at 1:3.7

 

[Count Vroskri]

1 minute ago, Bregir said:

 

How do you figure this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Bonhomme_Richard_(1765)

Length: 46 m (or 152 fahrenheit, if you like to drink your stupid juice by the imperial gallon )

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Victory

Length: 69 m (186ft)

Those two are from roughly the same period. (In fact build the same year)

It seems like we may be talking about two different ships? From what I can see on wikipedia, it seems like a perfectly normal distribution of armament for a frigate equivalent? 

That seems more correct. A book I own, the ship spotters guide claims the BHR (1765) was 152 feet long, as opposed to victory's 151.

Edit : Victory's length in keel is 151, but her overall length was 186.

Sorry, my bad. 

 

[Bregir]

3 minutes ago, Count Vroskri said:

That seems more correct. A book I own, the ship spotters guide claims the BHR (1765) was 152 feet long, as opposed to victory's 151.

Edit : Victory's length in keel is 151, but her overall length was 186.

Sorry, my bad. 

 

It's always a question about whether the source talks of length of hull, keel, gundeck, or overall. wikipedia isn't all too consistent either. Definitely something to keep in mind.

[kurigan]

Well, I got here late, but it looks like the topic was well covered. @Bregir has the right of it. I had a thought while looking them over, that I still couldn't  confirm even after a bit of digging. Looking at them I wonder if the odd proportions are meant to stabilize them so they'll float. Not the originals but the models look as though they're meant to double as toys. If there proportions were truer to 1:3ish, you'd have to heavily weight the keel to keep them upright, and the they'd likely sink under the extra weight. Making them wide like this, might distribute their top hamper enough to play wit in the tub

[Wellesley]

The last two days I finally had some time to build again. I started two MOCs, one of which is a ship. The hull was inspired by @Bregir's photo on flickr:

 

I'm always amazed how much you still can build with the bricks you already have, when you just start instead of sitting around and planning towards a specific result. My Galeas Buteo also came to existence this way. Only later did I buy a few parts to finish her.

For this one I don't now which type of rig I should use. But I saw pictures of Thames sailing barges the other day and am intrigued.

 

Wish you all a nice day!

[Bodi]

@Wellesley Looking good so far, you have the right hull shape. And I'm curious about what these sailing barge do look like. 

[Edmund Babbington]

hello everyone. I have been working on this design for a small coastal trading vessel. hopefully its not too derivitive, but i can only think of so many things to do with hull pieces. anyone have any ideas for improvement? the working name is "hornet"

 

 

[Count Vroskri]

15 hours ago, Edmund Babbington said:

hello everyone. I have been working on this design for a small coastal trading vessel. hopefully its not too derivitive, but i can only think of so many things to do with hull pieces. anyone have any ideas for improvement? the working name is "hornet"

 

 

This is a very nice start, with good sails, rudder, and overall design. I'm not really sure how to help you. If you have money, perhaps try bricklink. If not, you could try Stud. Io, which is a digital lego builder. It is free. I like the way you have tried to make the sides wider in the middle than at the bow and stern. 

[Wellesley]

@Edmund Babbington Yes, it is a good start. Looking at your hull, I can't really say much but that you will naturally improve with each ship. With more bricks and more experience I'm sure you will build decent ships.

I like that you limited our build to three colours. The name is very fitting. I would probably change the yellow brick in the rudder and the ones astern above the white stripe to black.

If your brick collection allows it, I would also add another mast, maybe half or two thirds the height of the main mast, very astern.

[Edmund Babbington]

@Wellesley

i do have a shorter top mast i could install but im not sure there is room to put it in? I could cut the raised quarter deck out and make it flush with the rest of the ship? that might give me more room. currently if i put a mast back there it would take up the whole little quarter deck. perhaps i could make the quarter deck a bit bigger?

overall thank you for the thoughts. i will see what i can do about changing the rudder pattern. i see what you mean with the fore and aft of the design having yellow near the top it does look a bit odd with the yellow in the middle

 

@Count Vroskri

thank  you for your thoughts and suggestions. I have been pretty happy with it and hope to tweak it a little more before posting it

[Bregir]

A good start, Mr. Babbington. I like the colour combination, your work on the rigging, and the details along the side.

For suggestions, in general for such a small vessel I would limit fore- and sterncastle - generally, small vessels doesn't have those. In terms of rigging, I really like the work on the foremast, but this ship looks like it should have a mizzen masts too. I would place a small mast aft, and hence rig it as a ketch. Alternatively, move the mainmast aft to get more balance, but then it will probably be a bit underrigged.

Keep up the good work!

[Wellesley]

I am happy with my new nearly finished ship. The foredeck is not an optimal solution, creating some gaps or tension because of brackets not used ideally, but should work.
The rigging is inspired by the Thames sailing barges.

[Count Vroskri]

13 hours ago, Wellesley said:

I am happy with my new nearly finished ship. The foredeck is not an optimal solution, creating some gaps or tension because of brackets not used ideally, but should work.
The rigging is inspired by the Thames sailing barges.

This is beautiful!