Shipwrights Guild Hall (WIPs, feedback, and advice)

[Legostone]

@bed007
It obviously depends on how far you intend on going with your rigging, but if you tie your rigging tight enough the string only has to protect the mast from breaking apart from horizontal pressure - so the string inside doesn't have to be the thickest or even tightest. For mounting - you'll have to experiment with that, as I've only used string with 2x2 round bricks so far.

@kurigan
I have one WIP where I'm using block and tackle and I've had my hull blow up because I added too much tension by accident:D
But I think for most of my ship it works well in the way I do it now, my rigging is tight enough anyways:D

Well, might as well post an inspiration for someone here. A ship that should be doable in minifig scale for many - it was 54 feet 4 inch long and 14 feet 9 inch wide. Small Barque:D

Edited March 1, 2017 by Legostone

[kurigan]

@Legostone

Well you, sir, clearly make stable rigging, no doubt to that. Let me ask you this though mate. If it's possible to emulate the real thing at scale, then why bother executing any other method on your model?  

 

In our case in particular, the beauty of Lego as a medium over, just about, any other is it intractability. If an ability to change your creation's state, even play with it, isn't part of your intentions, why not work in another more exacting medium? For me, the working rig I can make with lego, versus the static rig common to say wood, is only the second largest factor as to why this is my chosen medium. To that effect I found the best way to achieve my goal, of a working rig, is to emulate the real thing as completely as possible. Look all the way back to Snake and see how I struggled with a "just make it look right" attitude. Every problem I was having with that rig, which falls apart from the very wind (ironic when you think about it) was solved by just doing things how they are done at full scale. 

 

You all will continue to do as you do, but it's a curiosity to me, and perhaps  an interesting conversation point to anyone else. What are you all thinking, out there. Do I not make sense?  

[Legostone]

2 hours ago, kurigan said:

Well you, sir, clearly make stable rigging, no doubt to that. Let me ask you this though mate. If it's possible to emulate the real thing at scale, then why bother executing any other method on your model?  

 

 

 

Warning: I'm tired and wrote too much:
As you may have noticed, I'm trying to get a fleet together (actually this picture is missing my Xebec and several WIPs)

In the time I have. My favourite part of building ships is designing the hull itself which is, I think, noticeable in both the progress I've made since my early ships and also in the number of techniques I've tried out (and there are still more left to test out, I really want to try out the new technique with the 2x4 plates (or similar) you've shown recently), the rigging and sails are more like something I feel like I have to do, as no rigging or even the prefab rigging would, in my opinion, downgrade my ships, so I do enough so it doesn't do that in my opinion. I'm also not the biggest fan of spending hours and hours on the ratlines (at least not for anything smaller than a 2 decker), so I don't usually do those. I'm not in the situation of selling my ships (well, I haven't received any offers so far at least), so the most important part is that I like them at the time of presenting them (this might change a few minutes later and cause me to tear down a ship I finished just 3 hours ago - I've done it, and I sure expect to do it again, maybe even with big ships).

And if you ask why then bother with stable rigging - it isn't much more complicated than unstable rigging, so I would rather hit the top of a door with the topgallant of a ship and notice there instead of finding the topgallant knocked off, as I had with previous ships.
I also had rigging basically get destroyed by transport (the main reason I tore down my old Frigate - it had gone through too much, bowsprit knocked off multiple times (I think about 5 times during the trip to and from Brickmania Antwerpen), mizzen knocked off during several occasion and so on - the rigging just didn't hold up to the needs.), so I prefer it tight now.

For why in Lego, not a "more exiting medium to model ships in":
- Experience. I have zero Experience working with wooden models, CAD tools or other. I have experience with Lego.
- Materials. I have a big collection from my childhood, and have easy access to the bricks I need (I have 2 local BL shops where I can buy parts as I want, and one of them has giant boxes of unsorted used parts where a significant number of bricks comes from) 
- time spent designing a model is controllable, and it doesn't hurt to leave it sitting around
- reusability. If I decide I don't like a ship anymore I can tear it down in a couple of minutes and do something else with the parts. Seems difficult with wood or similar.
- people. I know nobody in the model building scene, but I know many people here. 
- the possibility of changes. Yes, I know it is possible with wooden (or other) models as well, but as far as I can see the effort to change a tiny thing are far greater than with Lego.
- I guess I could add more, but I think you get it ;)

[Maxim I]

A big reason I build with Lego is because I don't work with one historic example and build a copy of that vessel.

Even for my (A)QAR, I am taking elements from different examples and incorporate them into my ships.

So that means a lot of trial and error until I found  something I am satisfied with. Lego is an easier medium than wood for that.

The main reason however is because it is LEGO :D :D I create a story and those ships are part of it. They have to fit in my created Lego World along the houses, ... . It would be a shame if I got wooden vessels next to my lego houses :p

---

Disclaimer: first drafts are started on a ship I am already talking 2 years about, and which will be a historic accurate vessel. But that vessel still have to be able to sail next to my other vessels, so this one will be Lego as well :)

[Bregir]

11 hours ago, kurigan said:

@Bregir That's cause you're not using a block and tackle, like dead or bull's eyes, to increase tension mate; been trying to sell you on the idea. I know no one really likes my 4624 dead eyes but 4265c makes a handy bull's eye. Of course if you're gonna pull on the shrouds like that, you'll need chains to anchor them to something more than the channels.

;My rigging is perfectly taut. In fact, it has been from my very first BoBS ship. I am, in general, not using blocks for the standing rigging, as it adds a lot to the complexity. If you will notice, on my 18 gun ship-sloop, I have used your method of 1x1 round plates in the hull to anchor the chains, and together with a sturdy hull construction, it is a very solid build. (I am not even worried by lifting her by any of the topmasts. In fact, that is how I move her around.)

[Jacob Nion]

Ahoy! Coming back to the Silent Mary/Roundel question, I think I have made some progress. But first I have to thank @Kolonialbeamter since he was so kind to push me into the right direction.

I was mainly focussing on ships of the line of the 17th century, since in my opinion the Silent Mary's overall shape and rigging is inspired by vessels like the Sovereign of the Seas , Sophia Amalia and various other ships.

Towers or roundels were nowhere to be found. But then Kolonialbeamter sent me a link to an engraving of the Ark Royal. It is a contemporary depiction crafted by Claes Jansz Visscher.

Spoiler

There are several model kits which feature these roundels.
 

Spoiler

 

 

I can't say for sure if these roundels ever existed or if it was just artistic liberty. But it is completely reasonable that Visscher saw the Ark Royal with his own eyes. And looking at his other works, it seems he depicted ships mostly naturalistic.

But those roundels look more like they were supposed to give coverage for muskets rather than cannons. Anyway, I'm now certain that the designers took inspiration from the Ark Royal, using the tower like structures on a 100 years later ship of the line as unique characteristic- And I think they did a wonderful job on the Silent Mary.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Jacob Nion

[Bregir]

Very interesting, @Jacob Nion

I do agree that there would not have been cannon in those towers, but they would probably serve well for muskets or small swivels or heavy musketoon/blunderbuss.

Can we expect your next ship to be inspired by the Ark Royal?

Personally, I feel more and more inclined to visit these earlier period vessels at some point.

[Jacob Nion]

50 minutes ago, Bregir said:

Very interesting, @Jacob Nion

I do agree that there would not have been cannon in those towers, but they would probably serve well for muskets or small swivels or heavy musketoon/blunderbuss.

Can we expect your next ship to be inspired by the Ark Royal?

Personally, I feel more and more inclined to visit these earlier period vessels at some point.

The Ark Royal seems a bit too bulky and slow for my pirate purposes. I will stay with 1650-1750 ships, since that is the piracy era that coined the common imagination of pirates. And for me it's what would fit the BoBS era the best. Not that I do not enjoy Napoleonic ship builds, but for me those are too advanced for early colonisation period. 

But since BoBS is a fantasy world it's not an anachronism for me, and the mix of those ship types worked well in the pirates of the caribbean franchise. 

About those roundels, I'd say they work better on an imperial warship. Perhaps an  Olean or Mardieran ship of the line, similar to the Silent Mary.

P.s.: my current wip is inspired by the east indiaman Amsterdam.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Jacob Nion

[Kolonialbeamter]

Funny you guys should talk about ships from that era 

[Umbra-Manis]

That looks pretty cool KB!

So I've got this weird little brick built hull, but I'm not sure where to take it from here. 

[Captain Genaro]

9 hours ago, Kolonialbeamter said:

Funny you guys should talk about ships from that era 

Just how many teasers are you going to post before you actually show us one of these beauties?

[Captain Becker]

Seriously KB? I mean youve got a whole navy on your dockyard at this moment it seems.  So I wonder when you are going to release them so to speak.... 

Captain Genaro: Thats looking mighty fantastic! Cant wait to see Her finished.

Legostone: Any idea of whats that ship in the plans? I really like Her lines.....

[Legostone]

@Captain Becker I think it wasn't specified which ship it was, but if I remember correctly it was a ship of the Venetian Navy. You are talking about that very curvy plan I posted earlier as a "challenge", right? It was a Polacre, 18th century. Else... the SOTL is based on a Venetian Plan as far as I know, some speculate its the San Carlo Borromeo. The Barque was much deeper, I would likely spent 20 Minutes searching again. 

[Bregir]

On 06/03/2017 at 0:26 PM, Jacob Nion said:

P.s.: my current wip is inspired by the east indiaman Amsterdam.

A peaceful merchantvessel from the notorious (Captain) Morgan! What madness is this?

Will we be so lucky as to see her progress?

As to periods represented here, I am happy to see anything from the early medieval period to the Napoleonic era really. And should anyone want to go even earlier, I would absolutely love to see that too. (Later would be more fishy, though, with steam ships etc.) I agree with you that one of the cool things about BoBS is that it accomodates all sailing ships, together braving the seas.

@Kolonialbeamter: That is looking absolutely fabulous! And I see you on flickr say something in Tschörman about perhaps building her in bricks? In any case, you have now shared two almost finished builds without showing us the rest, and I am dying to see more of them! Pweeeeeeeeease?!? @_@

@Umbra-Manis: Interesting technique, UM! That could turn out very nice. A few pointers from me: I think she is looking pretty chubby, so making her longer would probably be a good idea. That may also allow you to smoothen out her curves a bit (three bricks from the front the curve is a bit abrupt), and I think she could turn out a really cool vessel, perhaps a broadbottomed tradeship?

[Maxim I]

On 6-3-2017 at 0:26 PM, Jacob Nion said:

P.s.: my current wip is inspired by the east indiaman Amsterdam.

Sebeus, Captain Green Hair, Legostone, Titus and me will visit the Amsterdam this saturday :D

I started the construction of the Gotheborg yesterday

 

[Legostone]

2 minutes ago, Maxim I said:

Sebeus, Captain Green Hair, Legostone, Titus and me will visit the Amsterdam this saturday :D

I started the construction of the Gotheborg yesterday

2

Batavia you mean ;) I hope that one inspires me to go for a proper Indiaman eventually :D

[Maxim I]

6 minutes ago, Legostone said:

Batavia you mean ;) I hope that one inspires me to go for a proper Indiaman eventually :D

Is it the Batavia? I thought we would go to Amsterdam (city) as Nancy and Margot are going to there :p my bad :)

[Jacob Nion]

3 hours ago, Bregir said:

A peaceful merchantvessel from the notorious (Captain) Morgan! What madness is this?

Will we be so lucky as to see her progress?

40 cannons on the original Amsterdam do no seem so peaceful. But I will be satisfied with around 20 guns. I think an india (terra-) man makes a valuable pirateship. Fast, well armed and storage room for the loot. 

And of course a pirate would place additional cannons on such a vessel. 

I usually don't make (public) wip, but perhaps it will be featured in a different moc, still under construction. 

[bed007]

Hi again fellows,

I have used wood dowel as suggested by@kurigan and it works perfectly! Thanks. Now I have another question as I am moving forward with the shrouds. How do you fix them on the top of the mast. I saw some using a technical plate but since I am doing a Sloop of war mostly inspired by the Virginia sloop, I believe this technique would produce a something too big up the mast.

Also, using just a plate and a tile to pinch the string in between would not be solid enough since my string is just as thick as the big Lego strings. This times 4 strings on each side would result in a very big gap between the plate and the tile. Any suggestions?

Again thanks for your response, this is very appreciated!

Jean

Québec, Canada

 

[kurigan]

@bed007

No worries mate. If you wanna do it right, you need cross trees and trestle trees (90 degrees perpendicular to the cross trees). With those in place the shroud just loops over and around the mast head. I make a loop on mine the same way I do on the chains; see My incomplete Rigging Tutorial.

39 minutes ago, bed007 said:

Also, using just a plate and a tile to pinch the string in between would not be solid enough since my string is just as thick as the big Lego strings. This times 4 strings on each side would result in a very big gap between the plate and the tile. Any suggestions?

Oh, by this you mean the channels, That plate through which the chains pass to connect to the shrouds. Took me a minute. Yeah that method works for me as i use really thin thread and can smash it. I did use technic plate on Ramcat but hated the look of it. You could try exploiting the gap the bottom on a 4073 creates or perhaps a 4070 or something else of the like.

[bed007]

@kurigan

Sorry,

I am French Canadian so sometimes my English might look weird!! I was not referring to the channels.. I already got them according to your rigging tutorial. I did use technic Brick because of the string thickness though.

Regarding the shrouds, I should have a loop with a splice going around the mast head. So if I have 4 strings per shrouds time 2 (port and starboard) then I would have 8 loops of the mast head, correct?

[kurigan]

5 minutes ago, bed007 said:

 

I am French Canadian so sometimes my English might look weird!! I was not referring to the channels.. I already got them according to your rigging tutorial. I did use technic Brick because of the string thickness though.

Regarding the shrouds, I should have a loop with a splice going around the mast head. So if I have 4 strings per shrouds time 2 (port and starboard) then I would have 8 loops of the mast head, correct?

It's ok, I'm an American; I have no excuse and mine can boggle the mind at times.

Yes, you've got it. They should lay atop one another too. I arrange mine fore to aft from the bottom up, so if it creates any rake to the mast it leans afterward.

[Bregir]

Latest WIP. Well, basicly done, I guess. Ships of that age didn't really have all those fancy things on deck, nor in the rig.

Inspired mainly by these pictures:

Also, its hard to keep up with the blue and green shipyards these days!

[Legostone]

3 minutes ago, Bregir said:

Latest WIP. Well, basicly done, I guess. Ships of that age didn't really have all those fancy things on deck, nor in the rig.

Looking good so far! Guessing 3T2 or equivalent?

4 minutes ago, Bregir said:

Also, its hard to keep up with the blue and green shipyards these days!

Tell me the same thing about the blue shipyards...

[Bregir]

6 minutes ago, Legostone said:

Looking good so far! Guessing 3T2 or equivalent?

Something along that line, yes.

7 minutes ago, Legostone said:

Tell me the same thing about the blue shipyards...

Just you guys wait - Corrington will not give up!