Bregir

Shipwrights Guild Hall (WIPs, feedback, and advice)

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On ‎11‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 4:15 PM, Kolonialbeamter said:

 

@Capt Wolf Good looking WIP so far :thumbup: I, too, hope the bow will live up to the promise. About the rigging... just when I'm abandoning this technique digitally, it catches on in the brick :laugh: 

I always thought the rigging technique would look good, and then I discovered your LDD builds and had it confirmed for me. I always enjoy your ships.

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New projects from the Corrish Shipyards:

A small, unarmed yacht:

31389449745_3725e16330_c.jpg

31274611431_360703e554_c.jpg

Felt like trying a new technique. Struggling a bit with the rigging, in fact. I have tried with flextubes, but creating a 1x1 mast that doesn't fall over at any lateral stress appears to be absolutely impossible. Any ideas? :pir-blush:

Aaand, a little secret weapon :pir-grin:

31274607541_9a7a45ce6e_c.jpg

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@Bregir Looking good so far :thumbup: Are you modeling her after some real plans?

On 3.12.2016 at 3:56 PM, Bregir said:

1x1 mast that doesn't fall over at any lateral stress appears to be absolutely impossible. Any ideas?

Instead of 1x1 round bricks, you could use a combi of 6538 and 32062, or 62462/75535 and 2780/similar, further stabilized by flextubes.

On 3.12.2016 at 3:56 PM, Bregir said:

Aaand, a little secret weapon :pir-grin:

Cool contact torpedoes :laugh:

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On 12/3/2016 at 9:56 AM, Bregir said:

 Struggling a bit with the rigging, in fact. I have tried with flextubes, but creating a 1x1 mast that doesn't fall over at any lateral stress appears to be absolutely impossible. Any ideas?

Dude, lets talk...

20161130_020002_zpsfzi50qfr.jpg

20160201_014450_zpsubb6kynm.jpg

 

20160201_014353_zpsdg8qdvtt.jpg

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25 minutes ago, Kolonialbeamter said:

Are you modeling her after some real plans?

-Ish. I am working after a picture in a book full of sailing ships. Taking all the liberties I want, though! :pir_tong2:

25 minutes ago, Kolonialbeamter said:

Instead of 1x1 round bricks, you could use a combi of 6538 and 32062, or 62462/75535 and 2780/similar, further stabilized by flextubes.

Yeah, just don't think I've got the bricks for it - might need to bricklink... My precioussssssssss

25 minutes ago, Kolonialbeamter said:

Cool contact torpedoes :laugh:

Thanks! I think they would be mines, though, to be left. Otherwise, I think she would sink herself! :pir-grin:

3 minutes ago, kurigan said:

Dude, lets talk...

Hehe, I know - and I can usually do that with my ships - think I might even be able to do it with this one - but expressed myself badly. If I apply any sideways pressure anywhere on the mast, it bends and collapses. Which will make it pretty hard to rig the gaff and mainsail... :pir-wink:

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Just now, Bregir said:

Hehe, I know - and I can usually do that with my ships - think I might even be able to do it with this one - but expressed myself badly. If I apply any sideways pressure anywhere on the mast, it bends and collapses. Which will make it pretty hard to rig the gaff and mainsail... :pir-wink:

Bumblebee there, purposely has no reinforcing in her mast and doesn't have that problem. :grin: it can collapse but it didn't give me any trouble in the rigging. the downward pressure keeps the bricks firmly seated. it's all don by the same principle in my Rigging Tutorial. There's only the one lesson yet but it's the foundation of stable string rigging.

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Looks nice, @Captain Genaro.

For a brig, though, she looks rather chubby to me - hadn't you said it was a brig, I would have assumed it a cutter judging by that hull outline. Are you building her after a specific set of plans? If not, then I would suggest either making her a cutter, or slimming her up somewhat. (2-4 studs, I would think, or increase her length.) At least, I don't recall seeing a brig with such a hull shape.

Also, for the gentler curves, bending bricks (I know, it's sort of illegal, and I too was against it in the beginning, but Legostone got me convinced) makes for a smoother, nicer, and more realistic curve. I would suggest you try it out, possibly in this WIP. It should be able to contain most of the curve you have from the stern to 1/4 from the bow, especially if you slim her up a bit (or increase her length).

Just a few thoughts - hope you will keep us updated with your progress! :pir-blush:

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33 minutes ago, Bregir said:

Are you building her after a specific set of plans? If not, then I would suggest either making her a cutter, or slimming her up somewhat. (2-4 studs, I would think, or increase her length.) At least, I don't recall seeing a brig with such a hull shape.

I'm basing her off plans for the La-Gazelle class (#0093). She is a little later than I would  It's the first time I've tried to do something like this, and I'm sure it'll take me quite a while to get the shape down.:pir-blush:

I'll trim her beam a bit and see how that looks (I really don't want to make her any longer).

33 minutes ago, Bregir said:

Also, for the gentler curves, bending bricks (I know, it's sort of illegal, and I too was against it in the beginning, but Legostone got me convinced) makes for a smoother, nicer, and more realistic curve. I would suggest you try it out, possibly in this WIP.

I know kurigan (I think Legostone uses hinges for the bow) creates some fantastic hulls with the curved bricks, but I just can't bring myself to do it.

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Depending on what lines your mock-up represents I might be right or wrong, but if it represents the level of the deck, I would still think your shape is too tear-drop shaped, and that she is too wide for her length. Perhaps you could try out the scaling tool Legostone linked earlier? :)

 

Also, I said the exact same thing just a few months back, but it really isn't that bad! :P

My 4th rate and the yacht linked above both use the bent sides method, and it allows me to work in both curve and tumblehome in the same construction. And you don't have to bend them so much that the bricks are damaged. Just make sure to lots of interconnecting short plates and bricks, rather than single longs ones, as each "link" (where the bricks meet) allows quite a bit of bending without actually affecting the bricks.

I entirely expect the bricks I use to be in perfect shape once I pull them apart! :) (Otherwise, I will sue Legostone for damages... Oh wait, this isn't 'Murica... :P )

So... You should try it out at some point... :P At least, try a small mock-ip, just to test it! ;)

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Bregir, I like your small unarmed yacht, but to make the hull look even better, I would clean up the curves a bit. Right now the plating is forming several wavy curves, instead of nice smooth single or reverse curves. In general, the number studs between each step should always decrease towards the ends of the hull, and if it increases again should always increase after that (i.e. a reverse curve). Otherwise, it looks busy and random instead of smooth and curvy.

Here's the rear quarter hull of the Nemesis for reference:

https://c7.staticflickr.com/1/463/31777211822_9e94728df4_b.jpg

Captain Genaro, the best way to verify the proportions of your ship is just by measuring the image. If you've already decided on an overall length, that gives you a conversion of studs per pixel. You can then use that on any other dimension of plans you're using to come up with the right number of studs. I agree with you on bending the bricks - I am personally quite against it. There's lots of ways to get a nice smooth curve without resorting to that.

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@Captain Genaro Wow 1830. Yeah that's a pretty late period ship for BoBS. She's looks very sleek in the plans. I was going to advise, in a general sense that her bow was too pointy, now that I got a good look at the plans for Gazelle I'm thinking quite the opposite. Perhaps the prow should land on a hinge rather than a brick, so it actually has a point to it. There seems to be no bluffness to the bow in the plans. This hull is very similar to the Schooners of the early 19th century and probably intentionally so. If you want to stick with this class, they wouldn't likely be a bad secondary source of information, at least as far a hull design goes.  If you want to pick an earlier brig, it'd be a different story, but going with Gazelle, cb4's advice is best. As for deciding upon width in general consider the size of her armament and provide enough space for them to recoil without interfering with other deck accoutrements, like hatches, masts, capstans, etc. Though in my experience it's very difficult to find a balance between a convent scale and realistic proportions you can get pretty dammed close without blowing your budget or sucking up every available brick. On a side note it was a bit hard to get to the actual image so I'm going to do you a favor and fix it here so the plans of Gazelle are easier to get to. 

 

GM02PL0093_zpsytjr2frb.jpg

Download here

 

 

Your tumblehome has me a bit confused. In my experience, on sloops like this there tends to be less, sometimes none at all, at the bow and more at the stern. If I'm interpreting your images correctly, you have that in reverse and that's also where from the difficulty/complexity in you construction stems. To this effect I have had no problem using the same #3937 hinges to add a tumblehome effect on a level plane towards the stern. If you want sheer at the same time, your going to have to figure out something I haven't, accept compromise or get really "illegal" like I did on Blanid 

  

It would seem that your putting Dunkleosteus's style to a practical test. I'm intrigued by this and am intensely curious to see how it will hold up. It's not without it's merits in the cyber realm, but I've often imagined it to be prone to misshaping and collapsing.  

 

I use hinges on the bow as well. I did little innovation there. My bows started as basic CGH types though in reference to my advice above, you might find the bow on Blanid a useful configuration. 

 

As for the destruction of bricks. Ramcat was assembled for 3 years before I tore her apart to make her in to first, a new version of herself and then, into Reckless. I took her down to individual bricks, twice, and recycled everything. Though some of the knock-offs didn't fair as well none of the Lego were damaged by the tension they were under for years. 

 

 

@cb4 Anyone get the license plate of that bus? 

 

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Well, you can, of course, take the bending bricks to a place where it actually damages the bricks, like in this steam boat I had built for Brickmania Antwerpen:

31560114890_a08f77732e.jpg

But as long as you don't go in the same area as that one you should be very much fine.
Going by the plans, I also think your Brig should be a quite a bit thinner, to me it looks like a 1:4 ratio in the real plans; you have roughly a length of 64 as far as I can tell, so a width of 16 would be perfect. And again, for measuring out ships I can only recommend @Sariel's scaling tool which is really helpful for stuff like this. 

And well, if I am already here, it doesn't hurt to share a couple of WIPs too (replacements for most of my first fleet after most ships got heavily damaged during transport):

A Topsail Schooner:
31021772523_b9149c9801.jpg

A pair of Sloops:
31453057160_6e6b7830f1.jpg

A Snow:
31576616922_14a0bbd5c9.jpg

...(I actually have around 5 more WIPs sitting here (might also be 4 or 6), but those have either been shown already in their current state or aren't meant for sharing just yet... :wink: )
(The rigging for these is very solid, all 4 of them can easily be picked up by the crosstrees)
(Yes I know my sloops are a fair bit too tall, I just built them comically tall to try out something:P)

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Here's an updated hull overview. She's still slightly wider than the plans call for, but if I make her any narrower there won't be room for the guns.

31795228002_bfe5435c94_z.jpgBrig WIP by Capt. Genaro, on Flickr

18 hours ago, Bregir said:

Depending on what lines your mock-up represents I might be right or wrong, but if it represents the level of the deck

It's just below the deck if that helps.

17 hours ago, cb4 said:

Captain Genaro, the best way to verify the proportions of your ship is just by measuring the image.

I completely agree (you should see how marked up my plans have become). I'm also using my computer to manipulate the original plans and superimpose them over my design. This makes it very easy to see where adjustments need to be made.

10 hours ago, kurigan said:

Wow 1830. Yeah that's a pretty late period ship for BoBS.

I wanted to do an earlier period brig (ideally a quarterdeck brig like the Vincejo, but I couldn't find good plans), but I don't think the time period should be too much of an issue. As for the bow, I think I'll reduce the brick from two studs wide to one stud wide.

11 hours ago, kurigan said:

This hull is very similar to the Schooners of the early 19th century and probably intentionally so. If you want to stick with this class, they wouldn't likely be a bad secondary source of information, at least as far a hull design goes.

Thank you, I'll keep this in mind.

10 hours ago, kurigan said:

Your tumblehome has me a bit confused.

That's just cruddy photography coupled with not enough work on the starboard hull. Only the larboard hull has bricks in place, so when I set the WIP down, it leans. She'll be slab-sided once I'm done with her (no tumblehome).

10 hours ago, kurigan said:

It would seem that your putting Dunkleosteus's style to a practical test.

I did it with my pervious vessel, Pride of Poseidon, and I think it holds up alright. The hinges have enough friction so they don't swing freely, but you have to be very careful when transporting her (and even then minor adjustments are guaranteed).

 

8 hours ago, Legostone said:

And well, if I am already here, it doesn't hurt to share a couple of WIPs too (replacements for most of my first fleet after most ships got heavily damaged during transport):

I was admiring those on your Flickr the other day. :pir-wub: A really nice collection of ships with unique color schemes. I'm very fond of the schooner, and would love to see more pictures of her once she's completed.

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On a side note, it looks like the plastic used in most Lego bricks (ABS) is quite fatigue resistant. This makes sense since they are interference fit so they stick together, and a single brick needs to be able to be assembled and reassembled many, many times without losing holding power. This seems to be why we can get away with bending the as long as it's not too much. The fact that there is significant inter-brick tolerance is also helpful.

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@Bregir Until you show me that you can do the same with a 2 masted vessel of yours, you can't complain about loose rigging on my ships.

Spoiler

 

31129472994_7e179ae950_z.jpg

 

 
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Terrible picture, I know, just wanted to show that my rigging is - while not looking the most solid - quite solid indeed. Lots of small strings to shorten, but it's getting there :D
@kurigan You can off course complain ;)

Edited by Legostone

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I was wondering how compact a 16 gun Schooner could be built - after all, Schooners are much smaller than frigates and Ships of the Line, at least they are supposed to. There aren't many options for smaller gunports (and smaller guns could cause some trouble too), so I went ahead and checked if a quarterdeck with guns on top might be plausible. Behold, I managed to find an example that works for my needs.

 ship_rigged_stjohn_lg.gif

Of course, this one only has 12 guns, but adding 1 more pair of guns towards the stern and another one towards the bow isn't difficult. No need to always go as big as humanly possible ;)
31977572186_17dfb90483_z.jpg

46 studs long, 3 stud spacing, rigging between instead of below or above gunports, some tumblehome. Should be all that's needed for this kind of ship:D
 

(For anyone wondering why I'm building this early in the year - I want this ship done quickly and the new years party I was at is already over. This is just the first 20 minutes of experimentation for getting the hull:P

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@Captain Genaro Yes, I forgot about Pride of Poseidon. She worked out very well. 

 

The new profile seems a lot more true to the plans. Perhaps you should reaching out to Mr Townsend if you still want to pursue a quarterdeck brig . I believe he had some decent reference material when he did Pinnacle 

 

 

@Legostone I like the direction your going. Those guns are way to big though. There will be no room to work them. Have you tried making a cannon from something smaller than a 1 X 1? Perhaps something with a technic pin? If you pulled that off, you could possibly get away with a 1 X 1 gunport. You could go with all carronades. Adding that extra gun on the focsle might get quite cramped. You'll have a windlass, pinrails, a fiferail, the bowsprit and cat heads, not to mention a hatchway and if you get so detailed, a Charlie Noble. If you do decide to cram them up there, I reckon it will come at a cost of accuracy and detail inclusion.  

 

If you'd want some real world reference for size, check out Providence, despite being a cutter she would be otherwise very similar. 

 

Here I go referencing myself again, but... Reckless is only 10 guns. If I reduced the spacing of the battery from 6 to say 4, I could fit two more guns per broadside. Visually and functionally that would be about the limit IMHO. You can figure on the length and breadth, from the images, though I failed to record her final dimensions in studs before sending her off. Where there is enough space for the guns it is bare minimum and else were is truly insufficient but it tricks the eye all the same. It's just one of the problems with Lego shipbuilding. When your base dimension is a single stud, you can only build so small. If both models were true to scale with one another, Reckless and your newest schooner here would have about the same footprint; yours may need to be a few studs longer. 

 

Just to be a jerk, not all schooners are small :wink: 

 

Nicely done! Now can ya do this? 

Spoiler

20161209_2248111153_zpsiqv3xvav.jpg

 

 

Now I do like that snow brig, but I have to admit, I'm more enamored with that green and white schooner; such nice clean lines. 

 

@Bregir old ground here to be sure, but I think what your not grasping about my image of Reckless suspended above the table, is my grasp. You see, she's not daintily suspended from some point above the shrouds, she in my fist, with all the weight of her stern pulling down. She's not magically balanced, yet her mast is holding against that torque. If I were experiencing the same problem you describe, her mast would separate below my hand and the hull would fall to rest on the transom.  

 

Important note: That wasn't a shot at my mate Legostone up there. It was reference to my own image of Bumblebee dangling from her topmast, pinched between my fingers. That ship shares your lateral force dilemma. Because the hull isn't stable enough to support the amount of tension demanded by the rigging, her mast can sheer off and collapse, under less pressure that I'd like to admit. Phred can attest to this, from having to reassemble her after the USPS jostled her and Nuisance through every sorting machine between here and Chicago. Now my larger ships, Nonesuch, Reckless and the late Ramcat as well as Adder and the Fishing Sloop do not share this affliction as their hulls are more than sturdy enough. 

 

 

 

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First of - Yes, why shouldn't it be able to do that?
 

Spoiler

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(It was very scary placing it down like that though...) (Mine isn't magically balanced either, but I only dare to pick her up by the top of the masts as the rigging is in the way everywhere further down:P)

31909246211_8184a88d5d_z.jpg

I know those guns are way too big - I just have a convenient bag with about 50 of them sitting here:P (I think total I have about 100 of them among all my ships and WIPs). I think I'll go with my small carronades for the gundeck and see what to do for the quarterdeck - if anyone here has an idea feel free to tell, I would be glad about ideas :D

I've removed the gunport covers - they don't fit well with such a small spacing. With these windows, which have a wall thickness of 1/5th of a stud on the thin side and 3/10th of a stud on the thick side, I still have a gunport to space between gunports ratio of 3 2/5th:1 3/5th -> 17:8 (using the thin side) or 3 3/5th:1 2/5th -> 18:7, which is, as far as I can tell, somewhat plausible. Yes, the ship is still smaller than Minifigure scale, but I am alright with that. For the bow - I've gone ahead and made it 2 studs longer, and I might change that to more if it is needed. Considering this is not a merchant, wouldn't a capstan instead of a windlass also make sense? I remember you having a capstan in one of your sloops even. I think I would place it right behind the foremast then.

While nobody had said anything about the mixed colours in the stern, I've decided to try out changing it to completely white - I think that looks a fair bit better.

Also, don't worry about it being that low - I prefer building up my broadsides first for armed vessels.

That Schooner is from the wrong time! But I am not saying you are wrong:P

 

 

Edit 8 hours later:
Designed some smaller guns, small carronades for this one and replaced the 4 gunports on the quarterdeck with swivels - made sense for me to place a couple of swivels up there to sweep an enemies ships decks. I also started on the lower part of the hull.
32036407755_44cbf804c9_z.jpg

The black stripes on the interior (I'm not sure if they stay) are supposed to be reinforcements to keep the hull stable with the carronades as this is a quite small ship for its armament, again. Not 100% happy with the shape - it starts going inwards towards the stern to early/the tumblehome doesn't want to play exactly the way I want it to. I might have to add a supporting pillar in there while mounting the quarterdeck.
31226455203_5d74522091_z.jpg

Edited by Legostone
update

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@Legostone 

Nice! The three way's I've come to judge the quality of a string rig are: Can you lift her by the masts? Can you haul her over/careen her by the masts? Can you lay her down on her masts? If your ship can handle these three things, your rig should be capable of functioning given a chance to break friction. I figure if it functions like the real thing, it’s a pretty good model. 

 

Your stern is very narrow, that could be part of your trouble. In fact it seems the whole thing is kind of narrow. The widest part should move farther astern; somewhere just ahead of amidships. Do you have any plans for this ship other than that side view? Can we get some other views like stern or bow on? 

 

Here's a basic drawing of a similar ship, Hanna, which may be of use. 

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Measuring out that ship with a given width of 13 studs, I get a length of 48 (fits!) and a width at the stern Galleries of 9.8 studs, which also fits. The biggest issue is currently the high width at the bow compared to the center, but I think it won't be too noticeable later on.  Sadly I didn't see any more details about this one, but it was just the basic idea behind this one.
Meanwhile: I've started rigging it (as I want it finished tomorrow morning), and tested how much space there is. Around these small guns I can easily fit 3 minifigs, which is still less than the supposed 6, but it is a compromise I have to make at this scale. I also added some simple headrails and catheads which I think look good. 

31935648401_505f137482_z.jpg
Compared to my other Schooner:

Spoiler

31935652631_5a67ef318c_z.jpg

 
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A bit smaller than I expected at first, but still alright I think. With the quarterdeck the deckspace should be nearly identical between the two:P

Edited by Legostone

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@Legostone 

Well you're pretty far along on this one and not likely to turn back, but... the key to changing that shape is multiple cross members. Check out the image of Nonesuch below. The first cross member holds the sides in while the next one back spreads them out. This makes the bow a separate curvature from the bent sides and allows me to control that point of greatest width. The rear most also help by allowing me to change the degree of curvature closer to the stern. In reverse of the arrangement at the bow, the forward member spreads the sides out while the aftward pulls them in tighter. 

 

Spoiler

IMG_2238_zpsbee9d617.jpg

The last version of Ramcat might be helpful reference as well being a similar type of hull 

Spoiler

20160817_033934_zpshy77zvhx.jpg

 

I forgot to mention the swivels before. I think it's a good choice functionally and aesthetically.

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Fractional gunport sizes aren't a real issue... you can easily and cheaply do 1/2 stud fractions with jumper plates as long as there's a whole number of studs between ports. You could do port sizes counted in plates with some SNOT. The real trouble is portlids. I've only seen 2 and 3 stud portlids and I'm not sure if there are any good solutions for fractional portlids available.

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Fractional gun-port sizes? Here you go:

31812441520_c8d16f2605_c.jpg

It's not that hard to build, but structural integrity does suffer somewhat, as the number of studs connection the sides to the decks decrease considerately, especially with 4 studs between gun ports.

This 18 gun ship-sloop is based loosely on "Blaa Heyren" although this does not include the considerable tumblehome. One day, I will have to figure out how to make that double-curve in a sturdy and realistic way, but for now, I will stick to a more conservative design.

C&C welcome.

@cb4: I agree about the curves on my yacht. I looked quite closely on your frigate, but must admit that I find those curves hard to match, especially on this small scale. I might revisit the hull before putting sails on her and finishing her, but I can't make any promises. Time is limited, and the projects plentiful. Also, Corrington must at least TRY to meet the productive shipyards of the blue and green persuasion! :pir-blush:

@Captain Genaro: I am liking the lines of that hull. When can we expect to see more or her? Also, have you entirely emptied the market of hinge plates? On my ship-sloop I found that I need an insane amount to get anything like structural integrity. (And could definitely use more, if I had them...)

@kurigan: That little schooner has some really nice line, including the raked masts. Would love to see it in the brick, although I am not sure I am myself ready to try it on. Might do it anyway, though! :tongue:

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6 hours ago, Bregir said:

 That little schooner has some really nice line, including the raked masts. Would love to see it in the brick, although I am not sure I am myself ready to try it on. Might do it anyway, though! :tongue:

 

kabel did one.

Those ports do look more proportional, but I see where you run into structural problems. Seems like the biggest hand up to them is the hinges though. might work better on a bent side.

 

That's a neat ship your working on there. I'd like to see more of her.

 

i keep saying this but no one seems to take notice. I've had no problem using 3937s to add tumblehome to my bent sides. I can't see how this hinge method would be very different.

Curvature in to dimensions seems to be the "holy grail" of Lego ship modeling. so far I think Revenge was the most successful attempt, but she was done on a scope and scale most cant afford, in money, bricks, time or space.

 

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