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Community actions to support LEGO against copy thiefs, protecting our hobby

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As the largest toy company in the world and one who's fastest growing market is Asia I'm not sure their pricing structure is limiting their growth.

 

It absolutely is. The prices you see on aliexpress and other places for chinese sets are hugely inflated. In China, lego is priced 7x or more than a bootleg brand. In a country where new kids clothes are sold for around $1-$2, people don't want to be dropping that kind of money on Lego. The reality is companies like Oxford and Star Diamond show it's possible to create an original quality product at a fraction of the of the cost of Lego, and that Lego is probably partially responsible for the current situation.

Edited by crossmr

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I think it will be useful if there was a database, with pictures, on how to identify authentic LEGO parts - this is especially of concern for those parts that do not have "LEGO" on them.  Frequently these parts will have part numbers, mold numbers, or distinctive marks left from the molding process.  Otherwise, the nightmare is just beginning for people who purchase parts and sets second hand.   TIme, resource and part availability is of issue here to get the done, however; not an activity I could step up and perform, but could contribute some part images...

Edited by JGW3000

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4 hours ago, crossmr said:

It absolutely is. The prices you see on aliexpress and other places for chinese sets are hugely inflated. In China, lego is priced 7x or more than a bootleg brand. In a country where new kids clothes are sold for around $1-$2, people don't want to be dropping that kind of money on Lego. The reality is companies like Oxford and Star Diamond show it's possible to create an original quality product at a fraction of the of the cost of Lego, and that Lego is probably partially responsible for the current situation.

 

Is it LEGO's pricing strategy that makes sets so expensive in China?  Or is it the Chinese government taxing it so much to the point they are basically inviting cheaper knockoffs to be developed?

1 hour ago, JGW3000 said:

I think it will be useful if there was a database, with pictures, on how to identify authentic LEGO parts - this is especially of concern for those parts that do not have "LEGO" on them.  Frequently these parts will have part numbers, mold numbers, or distinctive marks left from the molding process.  Otherwise, the nightmare is just beginning for people who purchase parts and sets second hand.   TIme, resource and part availability is of issue here to get the done, however; not an activity I could step up and perform, but could contribute some part images...

Who's actually buying this stuff?  I doubt it's your average mom or dad stumbling across them in the store.  I think it's people knowingly and willingly purchasing them.  I don't think any awareness campaign will change that.

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Taking a look at Brinklink 'Top item sold' in past 6 months, new parts only: (http://www.bricklink.com/catalogStatsSold.asp?orderNew=N&itemType=P), 33 out of 100 will not have 'LEGO' readily visible or not at all, with total combined sales of at least 3,000,000 parts, with a total combined sales in the ~$50,000 per month range.

At the other extreme, expensive parts - the famous LBG lever w/LBG base - 1559 sold in the past 6 months at $3.90 used, $6.62 new. - these have no LEGO markings, and 47996 LBG boat mast, 7 sold at $243 each on average, again no markings.  There are any number of desirable parts in the $20-$100 range.

Plenty of AFOL's on BL are buying parts and this is a clear opportunity for the unscrupulous to take advantage of eager buyers and achieve a high rate of return.

There is no way I am buying parts worth more than $0.10-$0.20 cents from aftermarket sources if I want to be assured that they are genuine LEGO, unless I can clearly identify that the part is genuine.

 

 

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7 hours ago, crossmr said:

It absolutely is. The prices you see on aliexpress and other places for chinese sets are hugely inflated. In China, lego is priced 7x or more than a bootleg brand. In a country where new kids clothes are sold for around $1-$2, people don't want to be dropping that kind of money on Lego. The reality is companies like Oxford and Star Diamond show it's possible to create an original quality product at a fraction of the of the cost of Lego, and that Lego is probably partially responsible for the current situation.

Then people can buy Oxford and Star Diamond. But they can't own Star Wars, DC, Marvel, Ghostbusters etc based construction toys. Lego isn't an elitist toy... but it's a premium brand toy. Just because someone makes something cheaper with a similar function doesn't mean Lego has to. Lego is a victim of it's success because people want to emulate their product. It's great that there are cheaper brands if people want to buy them... It still doesn't mean Lego have to lower their prices to come in line with them.... and their success is a clear indicator of that. Why aren't Oxford the largest toy company in the world if they're as good but 7x cheaper?

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38 minutes ago, JGW3000 said:

At the other extreme, expensive parts - the famous LBG lever w/LBG base - 1559 sold in the past 6 months at $3.90 used, $6.62 new. - these have no LEGO markings, and 47996 LBG boat mast, 7 sold at $243 each on average, again no markings.  There are any number of desirable parts in the $20-$100 range.

This is my point.  Average folks will not be looking for such specific, rare parts, and will probably not stumble across these.

From an AFOL point of view, no LEGO is worth $243 a piece.  Never will be.  But I can see why people would want them.  And I can see why they might buy a $5 knock off.  I think that's the market these guys will exploit.

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1 hour ago, kibosh said:

This is my point.  Average folks will not be looking for such specific, rare parts, and will probably not stumble across these.

From an AFOL point of view, no LEGO is worth $243 a piece.  Never will be.  But I can see why people would want them.  And I can see why they might buy a $5 knock off.  I think that's the market these guys will exploit.

That's the thing. For someone BLing 10179 the £150 to buy the bootleg even just for those 62 parts might makes sense. No markings to differentiate those parts and instead of $800 you get something pretty much exactly the same for a fraction of that cost. Is there any way of finding out if there's been a sudden increase in stock of those parts? 1559 of those levers in the last 6 months seems like a lot for something so rare. I can see the 7 mast rigging pieces being a more realistic amount. If a store didn't have any of those levers then suddenly popped up with 120 of them along with 4 of those rigging pieces it would seem pretty suspect.

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5 hours ago, Robianco said:

Then people can buy Oxford and Star Diamond. But they can't own Star Wars, DC, Marvel, Ghostbusters etc based construction toys. Lego isn't an elitist toy... but it's a premium brand toy. Just because someone makes something cheaper with a similar function doesn't mean Lego has to. Lego is a victim of it's success because people want to emulate their product. It's great that there are cheaper brands if people want to buy them... It still doesn't mean Lego have to lower their prices to come in line with them.... and their success is a clear indicator of that. Why aren't Oxford the largest toy company in the world if they're as good but 7x cheaper?

Mainly because they lack vision. They make some very good quality sets, some great original designs, but they're limited to South Korea. They have no international presence to speak of, and purchasing them outside Korea can be a bit of a hassle. Not something the average person is going to go through. They also lack some cohesion and direction to their product lines. Lego has had had decades to turn their product lines into well-oiled machines. Oxford doesn't have that yet. I believe if they did create a much more focused product line in the same way that Lego did, and had the capital to go international they could put a dent in Lego's business, a much larger one that megablocks does.

Star Diamond is in the same place. They only focus on China, but they're original designs. They are however completely on par with lego quality wise, bricks, figures, the whole deal. Very nice all around. They're also one of the few chinese brands that you can't really find too much of on Aliexpress. Mainly because they are slightly more expensive in China, which means Aliexpress sellers would have to mark the prices up even more.

You're right, Lego doesn't have to keep their prices reasonable, that's their right as a private company. But by increasing their prices to an unreasonable level, especially in a place like China, where the average income is quite low, you're create an environment for people to rip you off. Some other industries lower prices in places like that. Certain countries which have lower incomes get price discounts on things like software and other things like that, which is why they introduced region locking on them. Lego hasn't figured that out yet, so they're going ahead with products in a country which can't really afford them.

 

There are cheaper brands that people can buy if they don't want to pay for Lego, but the Chinese ones are the only ones really available worldwide.

 

Quote

Is it LEGO's pricing strategy that makes sets so expensive in China?  Or is it the Chinese government taxing it so much to the point they are basically inviting cheaper knockoffs to be developed?

 

I don't believe the government is taxing them that much. The prices they charge in China are on par with the prices charged in other countries.

Edited by crossmr

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First of all why you guys treat the chinese so well if they are thieves. Why do you guys buy more products that is made in china. Why do you guys help the china's economy grow enormously. 

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1 hour ago, wilson3a10 said:

First of all why you guys treat the chinese so well if they are thieves. Why do you guys buy more products that is made in china. Why do you guys help the china's economy grow enormously. 

Well, Your comment is not constructive, generalize, and misfire the theme of this topic. Here is talked about a specific case and related to intellectual property. Without any offense I advice You to read again from the beginning.

Edited by agrof

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11 minutes ago, pittpenguin123 said:

Whats with all the talk of lego v lepin. This isnt the first time lego tried to take down a knock off why is it so important now?

See my previous comment, but for lazy ones: this issue is not about LEGO vs Lepin, but that Lepin started to steal MOCers (see: members of Eurobricks too, could be any of us) work. This has a direct influence on this community too.

The Topic is about IF we can do anything to avoid stealing, IF we want to do anything, IF is it ok if people start to avoid share their MOCs = we might loose the spirit of this and similar communities.
Jme Wheeler formulated these issues very well HERE. Please read it carefully, try to understand the long term effects.

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3 hours ago, agrof said:

See my previous comment, but for lazy ones: this issue is not about LEGO vs Lepin, but that Lepin started to steal MOCers (see: members of Eurobricks too, could be any of us) work. This has a direct influence on this community too.

The Topic is about IF we can do anything to avoid stealing, IF we want to do anything, IF is it ok if people start to avoid share their MOCs = we might loose the spirit of this and similar communities.
Jme Wheeler formulated these issues very well HERE. Please read it carefully, try to understand the long term effects.

This still isnt even the first time they stole MOCs before, they made some builds in the past before (like a bootleg moc tumbler or ghost rider bike). (They have been stealing custom designs for ever and no one made a big deal) 

 

I agree its rude and wrong, but this has been going on for ever, why the increase in the talk about it. Is it because big name MOCers are getting bootlegged? No one really gave a crap when it was a nobody who had his idea stolen.

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To be honest I am also confused if we can/should (worth) do serious actions, aside giving all our support to the affected MOCers by spreading the word, and not buying from those disrespectful companies.

I think this is our main weapon, to spread and clear to people, why it is wrong. We can not eliminate greediness completely, but we can point out that maybe "good" and "respect" are right and longer lasting values than "availability". This goes for many aspect of life, and belong to so called social responsibility.

Big name MOCers are also great sources of inspiration for many of us, so yes, it would be noticable hit if they would not share any further...

Edited by agrof
grammar

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As Agrof said, we must start to spread the words and advice the people why buying these clone toys is affecting both TLG and all the Lego customers, because if the new generation of customers accidentally buys one of these clone models, they will be disappointed which its quality, and they will think that all the Legos are the same thing, the problem of these companies copying customers mocs is a whole new level of evil, right now it might be only a few models made first by some well known builders out there, but i am sure that those builders arent going to share more of their ideas for a long time, which means that the clone brands will go after more builders, at the point that no one will want to share anything, and all the customers and members of the different clubs or forums will just stop sharing their models or ideas, everything will colapse until finally no one will want to buy neither original Lego models or clone models because there will be no point in making something great when you already know that someone is waiting to stole it, that is the problem, we might wont see it at this point in a long time, but it is not a question of if it will ever happen, the question is when will it happen and how it can be avoided, the answer is the same thing that i said before in this post, and in my previous post in this topic, we might not be able to completely terminate these clone brands if we only want to sue them, but we can teach people about these companies and what they do to all the costumers, and which will be the result if they support them, again, the answer is to spread the word to everyone.

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For along time there was a website stealing art from reddit.com/r/art and selling it, they was never stopped, yet people dont stop posting art there. I dont think every one will stop posting MOCs if people steal them. 

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Madoca's AVTOROS Shaman drew a lot of attention like many of his previous models. And there are many other MOCers here who have made and even shared instructions for their models for free. For sure there are many builders who would like to build many of these awesome models but do not have enough parts.

Along comes a China manufacturer who packages the sets and offers them for sale. Suddenly, builders no longer need to BL or take apart several other sets to build. This is a very tempting offer indeed. If that manufacturer had offered the original MOCer some form of share in profits etc. would that appease members here? Someone making money from it is unfair indeed but the MOCers had already shared their instructions for free without expecting returns.

This topic is complicated as I think there are many LEGO sets that builders would like to have eg. retired Star Wars and modular sets but you cannot find them at an affordable price and trying to BL them is such a long, expensive process. These China brands are filling a large gap in the market which established players did not or would not want to.

LEGO fans have been asking for a reissue of the 10179 UCS MF but it never happened. Now you can get a LEPIN one. The only people it really hurts are those who recently paid a lot of money for the real thing thinking it's going to go further up in price.

 

 

 

 

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Hey dpkong, some of the ideas that you have shared are actually well pointed, but the problem here goes further more, the fact is that there are already people who sells already sorted parts for a certain MOC, and in my opinion, it can be completely acceptable, for example, the Avtoros from Madoca, i could build it, then disassemble it and sort the parts, and i could sell them to anyone, there wouldn't be any problem, it would be the same as selling a sort of random parts or a collection, and i think it would be ethically right to give the credits to the original builder (in this case, Madoca), when it comes to sell Lego parts there is no problem, just consider the previous words when selling a model from other builder; but, the problem with these clone brands is very different, because they are first: stealing the idea of Madoca, his hard work, developing and experimenting with the model, and second: they are creating clone parts, which is another problem, so, what i think that they should have done before everything is to consider these points: if you are going to make and sell a model based in another one's creation, you must give credits to the original builder, selling the parts is not a problem, because everyone is free to get their wished parts, but the design belongs to the original designers, that is what they should have considered first, but these bring us to a new problem, the cloned parts, because if you were going to sell the sorted parts to make the model, they should be original Legos and not clones ones, that will affect the prices of the original Lego parts, because this clone brand didn't needed to make all the developing, testing, logistics, marketing and all the factors needed to sell a product, it will cause price drops and the original Legos will be worthless, that is the real problem, but in the case that they were going to make different parts, for example another kind of tires or motors or pieces which would be compatible with Lego and would actually enhance the Lego models, then i am agree with them and they would expand the possibilities with the models and i can accept that; these are some of the thoughts i have about the things they should have done:

First: In the case that they have wanted to sell parts to make the Avtoros, they should have first contacted Madoca and ask him to let them sell the parts and the model itself massively, and because they would be payed, an small fee to Madoca wouldn't be a problem, that would be the first step.

Second, the parts, if they were going to sell the parts needed to build the model, they should have buy them at Lego and they shouldn't make their own parts, that is the right way to sell a model.

Now, you said some fans have asked for the reissue of the 10179 and Lego hasn't done it, even in this case it is not acceptable, that is why it is called "COLLECTION" set, because they are thought to be rare models, and of course they are going to be expensive, think of this like the cars industry, there are very old and classic cars, Fords, Cheverolets, Dodges, Cadillacs, Ferraris, etc, they are limited and wanted for a lot of people, and when you want to get one, you wouldn't like to find that it has low quality parts which don't belong to the car, you wont want to buy a cheap, cloned car, which might look the same, but people will notice it, they will know that you got it for the easy way, without making a sacrifice, the same happens in the case of the models, if you want to get a collection and/or old/expensive model, you must be ready to pay a big amount of money for it, so you will get an original model with box, stickers, instructions sheets, etc, but in the case you wouldn't want to get all of these rare and expensive extras of the models, you could get the parts at Lego stores, or Bricklink for example, so at least you would get a recreation of the model, but you must make sure that the parts are original Lego and not copy brands, and the same with the cars, when you buy an old, expensive and rare car, you aren't going to put a low quality engine, or decorations, you will put things with the same or even with higher quality for it, and even you would add extra parts to enhance the car, for example, a turbo, or an stronger transmission, bigger engine, etc, this would be accepted by the people, because you are not putting a replacing part because it is cheap or easy to get but you are actually putting improved parts to make it even greater.

Thist is my opinion about this problem with this brand, and is my point of view, all of you might be agree or disagree with everything or with only some parts of this, and i accept your own thoughts too, we all have similar and different ways to see something.

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On 03/11/2016 at 1:51 PM, Anarich said:

I agree with you about the bad practices of the Chinese bootleg brands to clone everything and everywhere. But... We are talking about a good quality control from TLG and we are faced with the poor quality control practices in "Ultimate Porsche set". For example the set includes decisive mistakes in manual, the gearbox does not working properly as expected and sometimes stall completely. 

I don't think the chinese designed this model...they just got the instruction PDF from Lego, re-arranged it a bit and printed it on poor quality paper...

As I know the Porsche quite well having assembled 4 of them (and on my way for a fifth and last one) apart from the gear ordering issues, everything work perfectly...adding the step 5 fix helps a bit but is absolutely not necessary. The key is not to rush and double check that pretty much everything runs without much friction at any step...you just should be way more careful when assembling it than when assembling other technic sets...

Furthermore, I don't see the point of criticizing the price of the Porsche (or any lego set for that matter)...if you buy sets as soon as they are released, don't expect to get any discount...of the 5 Porsche I got, I paid respectively : 

  • 299€ for the first one ordered on S@H (since bought back by the salesman)
  • 269€ at a local toy shop for one of my colleague
  • 212€ at the same local toy shop a month ago
  • 195€ on Amazon two weeks ago including a 20% discount with my premium account
  • 208€ on Amazon last week for a colleague including a 10% discount with my premium account

So I don't really see the point of paying 145€ excluding shipping on a bloody knockoff when the real thing is only a few euros more and I would be surprised if Lepin (or whatever they call themselves) would ever be able to match the best deal I got on some genuine sets :

  • BWE : 168€ a few days after its release on Amazon
  • Claas : 95€ a few days ago on Amazon
  • Arocs : 159€ a week ago on Amazon
  • Le Mans racing car (which will be used for parts) : 59€ this week at a local toy shop
  • Crawler Crane (which will be used for parts) : 79€ at a local toy shop next monday
  • ...and the Volvo Front Loader was 155€ a few weeks ago on Amazon.de (but skipped this one as I don't really like it and as I don't need yellow beams or engines / receivers & co)

=> if you buy smart, you don't need to buy crap

On that note, let's ourselves behold the quality of the Lepin Porsche :

 

-- Edit 1 : best deal currently live on the Porsche --

If you really want a Porsche...you can have it from Amazon France right now for 229€...and if you subscribe to the 30 days trial for the Amazon Premium program, you can get a 15% rebate...which would make it a 195€ set

https://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B01CCT2ZHC?tag=t0ede-21

--- Edit 2 : useful tool to compare price of technic sets ---

If you're into technic, mindstorm or starwars lego, you must definitely use this : http://www.techlug.fr/comparateur-lego

-- Edit 3 : useful tips for having the best deals at your local toy shop --

I've lended my BWE, my first Porsche and my Claas Xerion to several local toy shops and since having such models on display boosts their sales*...they give me insight and prior access to their best deals...again, it's all about being smart ;-)

 

* the first hour my Porsche was on display, there was a huge wow factor...and I've seen 10 of them go...same for the Claas, but less so for the BWE

Edited by charlesw

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 I agree the stealing of MOCers designs with no credit given is wrong and disgusting! Also interesting to note, when some people buy the LEPIN sets for old discontinued sets like Green Grocer and Cafe Corner, in their collections these rip-off pieces might eventually get mixed up with regular LEGO pieces. Then the people sell a bulk box of pieces or give it to a thrift store, and then the fakes are mixed with the real pieces and no one knows which is which anymore! (Obviously the difference in quality is there, but on an Ebay thumbnail how could you tell unless it was in the description?) Scary thought...

Edited by Elysiumfountain

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I am as scared as you Elysium (Welcome to Eurobricks by the way), and something to judge about the previos videos comparing the Lepin pieces with the Lego ones, is that looking closely you can realize that most of the Lepin pieces are like 50% thinner than Lego ones, which means that even when the material has the same strength, the pieces don't, look at the beams and the pins, they are like painted paper sheets, and thinking that these poorly created pieces could mix and infiltrate between original Lego ones makes me be scared, sad and very very angry, because i know there will surely be people who will sell these cloned pieces, this is a very bad situation, lets hope that this can solve soon.

Edited by Imanol BB

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23 hours ago, Elysiumfountain said:

 I agree the stealing of MOCers designs with no credit given is wrong and disgusting! Also interesting to note, when some people buy the LEPIN sets for old discontinued sets like Green Grocer and Cafe Corner, in their collections these rip-off pieces might eventually get mixed up with regular LEGO pieces. Then the people sell a bulk box of pieces or give it to a thrift store, and then the fakes are mixed with the real pieces and no one knows which is which anymore! (Obviously the difference in quality is there, but on an Ebay thumbnail how could you tell unless it was in the description?) Scary thought...

It is no different than sorting out the MegaBloks from the LEGO in a second hand bulk lot buy that buyers currently have to contend with.  It is not like LEPIN is molding the word LEGO on their bricks (as far as I can tell).  The problem I can see are Technic parts.  Some of them don't have LEGO molded on them.  I suppose you can use weight or density to differentiate.

There seems to be more people making instructions now than a few years ago.  Instructions do make it easier to replicate your MOC for good and bad purposes. 

 

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First of all I want to say that LEPIN should put all there fake sets in a pile and set it alight 

second I hope lego wins against this horrible company and if they do then hey should sue all the other ones as well then they can crush/ distroy / burn their products but most importantly get them off the market.

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So I don't really see the point of paying 145€ excluding shipping on a bloody knockoff when the real thing is only a few euros more and I would be surprised if Lepin (or whatever they call themselves) would ever be able to match the best deal I got on some genuine sets :

 

Again, you aren't Lepin's intended audience. The few westerners buying it at ridiculously inflated prices, isn't really indicative of why this product was made. In China the local price is only 41 euros. Not 145 Euros.

This also gives you a sense of how much aliexpress sellers rip people off. If you're paying that much for a bootleg it doesn't make much sense, but if you can buy 7-8 for the price you'd pay for a real one, suddenly it's a completely different situation.

 

People should remember that Lego isn't your friend. They're a business first a foremost, and despite their long history and how long we've played with their product, they aren't our buddy, and they're making money hand over fist. They don't need our help to defend them or anything else. The only thing they care about is profit. Why do you think we have stickers instead of printed bricks these days?

 

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