Community actions to support LEGO against copy thiefs, protecting our hobby

[rm8]

Bad news,

First of all, sorry, don't wanna hurt our true-LEGO fans from China

Chinese thiefs copied LEGO technic Offical sets this year, following the high sales wave of novelties,  just some months ago appeared, and now we can buy all epic flagships of last years including all power functions elements and pneumatics.  BUT, This was the first step, now they quickly reached our technic MOCs with their dirty hands. First  is Madoka's Avtoros Shaman 8x8 (very first was modular building theme MOC, just 2 weeks ago). Very successful model, just watch YouTube stats and you will see. Who will be the next? Crowkillers, Sheepo?!! I am sure they already built our models, and right now find the way to simplify them (as with Shaman 8x8) keeping original well-known design and make money selling as sets...

Well, to say the true, I don't see really bad when they copy design of parts to be LEGO-compatible and sell their own developed set. They can be very successful with new, more powerful motors (that's easy, why not?), rc elements, or even new better tires -all that we ask LEGO for a long time.  But they don't want. Just steal, replicate and sell. They sell them as LEGO products (sure some of customers can't see difference between LEGO and LEGO-compatible copy) following design of the boxes. As someone said, I am afraid that this Chinese sh@t fill bricklink market place step by step, no matter bricklink rules and legacy.

All We can do as AFOL - to tell our subscribers why it is important to not support thiefs (without any names, no promo), and why their  toys are cheap... for example, there are a lot of expenses than Chinese thiefs don't pay

1. developing
2. testing testing and testing
3. marketing
4. advertising
5. environment
6. social 
7. safety
8. certification
9. Waste utilization
10. social communities support!
11. ...

this is a short, not full list

chinese thiefs don't do all that things, beside that, they pollute environment and use cheap/child Human Resources producing low quality, non-safety certified plastic crap that is looking like LEGO including box art. 

We are disappointed, but should not stop our hobby, passion. Just support LEGO and tell everyone abut thiefs.

What do you think guys? May be we can use common stop motion picture with information that every our video-viewer should know? Any other actions by us or just close our eyes and leave this as problem of LEGO group?

Edited November 1, 2016 by rm8

[offroadcreations]

I really don't like these set rip-offs. And now MOC rip-offs! That makes me really mad. The parts are low-quality, and also are dangerous, and soon we'll have these dangerous parts circulating in the market. I agree that a common picture at the beginning of our videos will help combat the problem. So will continuously reporting the fake sets to online stores and LEGO itself. But the bottom line is that we have to keep persevering to defeat these clone brands.

 

Edited October 31, 2016 by Offroadcreat1ons
My real opinion.

[rm8]

I don't want discuss these products, paste any links and "brand" names. Please don't do that here. No matter if it is legal or not discussing it here on EB, but the problem is here. Closing eyes will not help.

 

Dear moderators, if you think think we should not do it here - do what you should do.

Edited October 31, 2016 by rm8

[Edwin Korstanje]

6 minutes ago, rm8 said:

I don't want discuss these products, paste any links and "brand" names. Please don't do that here. No matter if it is legal or not discussing it here on EB, but the problem is here. 

Amen.

[bonox]

I think the biggest legacy will be parts working their way through BL. Sure, there is impact on some people related to individual MOCs etc being ripped off, but the incidence of getting knockoff parts in orders is likely to affect vastly more people as the prevalence of cheap copied parts keeps rising.

 

 

Perhaps you could investigate subtle but obvious watermarking of all videos, pictures and instructions that you release.

[Tommy Styrvoky]

I think this could only be the tip of the iceberg, as this could have been brought on by all of the people in the US buying knockoff copies of the Porsche. I think the best way to stop this could be potentially be because of people in the technic community comparing the sets, and giving publicity/revenue. I think it is important to compare the manufacturers, but is it really necessary for everyone to do a review of the Porsches together, as I think we may have created our own problems with advertising them, buy creating reviews of the sets. As I didn't know about the knockoffs until the Porsche set came around.

This whole problem may have been spread by us, our viewers see the alternative to the expensive lego set, and purchase that over the lego set. I know there was a big issue with 3rd party models being purchased and shown in the Lego Technic group (A large portion of the posts are just of people's new technic sets, and I would assume most people look up to some of the technic builders here on Eurobricks).

 

To solve this problem, I think we should try limit the reviews of 3rd party copies, and I think it would be defiantly helpful to have a library of parts comparisons, to determine 3rd party copies vs official parts, to help educate people with potential Bricklink issues involving 3rd party copies that are circulating. 

Also the 3rd party part's aren't just technic, nearly every large Lego line has 3rd party knockoffs, Star Wars for example.

It's going to be difficult to approach this, as if you create awareness, you may also potentially create an interest. One way of doing this could be by making it very clear that these products will not be acceptable in the Lego community, as it's harmful to the Lego company. Though it could lead to awareness increasing the publicity for the company.

I guess it would probably best to go through with educating people by not buying copies of existing parts. Maybe some of the major technic channels could release a video about the content, if they wanted to, as this will have to be a group effort. I don't think there is anything legal we can do about it, though I know I saw an brickset article about Lego confronting the issue in Chinese courts.   

Edited October 31, 2016 by Tommy Styrvoky

[Didumos69]

I think it's perfectly valid to have a discussion on this subject here on EB. Apparantly it's a growing concern of the community. I think the guidelines mean to say that we should not discuss individual products, because it will only advertise them, but this is about the phenomenon of illegal copying etc. itself, and not about individual products.

[offroadcreations]

I don't want to look away either, so I changed my first post. I didn't mean to seem like I was okay with these copies.

[frikandeloorlog]

are these pirated versions offered as different brands?, or are even the boxes copied and offered as if it was real Lego?

 

[Tommy Styrvoky]

14 minutes ago, frikandeloorlog said:

are these pirated versions offered as different brands?, or are even the boxes copied and offered as if it was real Lego?

 

no, they are practically the same in every way, except for minor name differences, the box art is basically the same too, with same font and layout.

[Imanol BB]

I am totally agree with everything you have posted here Rm8, if the case was that these companies (wherever they come from or who they are) make products designed to expand the possibilities then I surely would give them all my respect and support, as you said, if they develop compatible motors, or tires, new pieces, (or even if they start to make replacement for pieces which are just impossible to get), then it is okay, but this must be product of your effort, your hard work and your inspiration to make Legos even greater than they already are, that is totally acceptable, but if you just want to make easy money by just ripping off every single design of official sets, prototypes or MOCs, then I would tell you to go right straight to hell for being and idiot and an abuser, you don't deserve to make money from another's people work, and even if they have taken a lot of stress and hard work to do something from total zero, and you are just going to take that, make a cheap and sh*ty version of it just to get money and take all the customers of the original idea, this problem has no countries, I know the admins are concerned about people pointing to an specific brand, company or country, and I will say that these clone toys can be from China, or Russia, or Germany, or USA, or Venezuela or from North pole or the moon, I doesn't matter from where and from who these thing came from, what matters is what can we do to make them stop doing that, or at least to convince them to aim their products in another way than just making the exactly same things that Lego does, convince them to make expansion products than replacement ones, instead of making the same pieces and sets, make your own ideas, start to think, get inspired and make a so cool piece or fully customized set that many people will want, and also people will want to get that part or model and also more original Lego parts to complete it, this would be a collective help, because you are indirectly helping you and helping Lego, if you are going to do this, you have green light to fly and make everything you think that will expand the possibilities, then people will know that you are not one of those shameful copiers but they will think you are a genuine thinker, an expansionist, a pioneer aiming for better models, pieces and/or ideas, this is what these companies should do instead of just copying everything.

My suggestion to everyone in or out there of this community and all of the other communities and/or clubs around the world is to share a message to everyone, we must tell to all the people what these copying companies are doing and how they can help to stop these companies from doing that, we must tell them this: "if you see that the product is designed to increase your satisfaction by expanding your Legos, feel free to buy it, that is okay, but if you see that it is the same thing, a cheap copy, and it was made to replace your original Legos, please don't buy it", this could be the primary campaign for all the well-known builders and reviewers of Legos and all of the customers, we must share that message, we must advice the people about this, if we are together and we want to make something to change anything, be sure we will.

[rm8]

I think, first of all, Bricklink ltd company should add rules about sellers responsibility on parts quality, to protect market from copies, and protect Bricklink company itself. Just block sellers who sell copy parts as original, even if they don't know that. Sellers should check their suppliers before offering lots 

Edited November 1, 2016 by rm8

[Imanol BB]

4 minutes ago, rm8 said:

I think, first of all, Bricklink ltd company should add rules about sellers responsibility on parts quality, to protect market from copies. Just block sellers who sell copy parts as original, even if they don't know that. They should check their suppliers before offering lots 

Agree with that too, every single page or company which was designed to sell original Lego parts (and maybe 3rd party expansion or custom products) must start to make a filtering campaign, to know which users are selling 100% original Lego parts or customized parts, and ask to every single user to for the originalism of the parts and to assure that they are not selling clone and cheap parts, these actions must be executed by all the respected pages which do this, and we must explain them why, to make new rules and be tougher with clone brands sellers, to be sure that there wont by infiltrated parts over there.

[Anarich]

First of all good day for everyone. I'm Anar from Baku, Azerbaijan. I'm AFOL, reading the EB almost every day, but I'm more a reader, than a writer. So let me share my opinion about this problem.

The problem is that the TLG does not want to adapt to the market influenced by the new players (china companies). It's all about marketing. For example spending out about 250 or 300 euros for a new Porsche isn't something everyone will accept. On the other side are the MOC makers and their creations. TLG can also get benefits of their hard work by simply inviting these people to work together or etc. 

Chinese manufacturers are able to quickly analyze the market and to produce a finished product for the price, good for shoppers. TLG company need to adopt an adaptive strategy that makes them more sensitive to market trends and demands. That's all.

P.S. Sorry for my bad English. 

 

 

Edited November 1, 2016 by Anarich

[Jim]

11 hours ago, rm8 said:

Dear moderators, if you think think we should not do it here - do what you should do.

It doesn't belong in Technic, so I will move it to Community.

[sanderverkuijlen]

As far as informing people about this issue goes there is something I'd quite like to know: how can you tell apart a low-quality third-party part from it's official lego equivalent?
I'd imagine this would be invaluable information for anyone that uses bricklink, buyers and sellers alike.

[strangely]

13 hours ago, frikandeloorlog said:

are these pirated versions offered as different brands?, or are even the boxes copied and offered as if it was real Lego?

 

They usually take the official Lego box art and put their brand name over Lego (Some of these companies even make their brand logo similar to Lego).

[Robianco]

If we're talking about Lepin clones of Lego sets then the first thing to notice is that there will be no Lego stamp on any of the bricks. They aren't trying to pass the bricks off as Lego.

There's a video here comparing original Lego Porsche parts with Lepin parts: 

After the very obviously inferior tyres there's an incredible similarity in colour and moulding in all of these pieces.

As I'm not a Technics builder or buyer so I'm not sure of how Lego stamps or marks their parts in the way they do with regular bricks.

In answer to the question of how to differentiate Lego parts with inferior third party then the answer should be obvious. They'll be inferior. If the question is how to tell Lego parts from replica third parts party that are of similar quality then that's something else.

As has been discussed with licensed and modular sets it isn't just enough to dismiss the clone bricks as inferior and toxic as I simply don't think it's true anymore. There are examples of people testing bricks and parts for lead and other toxic impurities and I don't recall a single example of anything being found. That's not to say they may not have other issues as I'm sure they don't have the same QC and other policies in place as Lego but people need to be aware that the parts can be incredibly close to Lego in both look and feel. I think the video above shows just how close things can get and buyers need to be aware of this.

Lego's 10179 UCS Millennium Falcon is available as a clone for approximately £150. In this there are 16 5x5 right angle yellow technics pieces and the cheapest one available at a BL store with enough is almost £8 each. That's £128 before shipping for just those 16 pieces. 60 light bley levers with light bley bases... cheapest store with over 10 in is £4.50 each which is £270 plus shipping from multiple stores and then there's the light bley mast rigging available for £450 for 2. So that's 70 pieces of a set containing 5170 pieces that cost roughly £850 on BL before we get to anything with a Lego stamp on a stud as a way of easily identifying it as a fake.

I think the comment about BrickLink having some kind of regulation would be a great start. 

Edited November 1, 2016 by Robianco

[bonox]

13 hours ago, Anarich said:

The problem is that the TLG does not want to adapt to the market influenced by the new players (china companies). It's all about marketing. For example spending out about 250 or 300 euros for a new Porsche isn't something everyone will accept. h. 

No. The problem is the Chinese are not taking the idea of modular parts and creating new designs using those parts. They're copying everything from the parts (many of which are legal since the patents expired long ago) but the instructions, the designs and the artwork (part of what you call marketing) and then deliberately trying to portray the result as genuine lego while being slightly different enough to give a lawyer something to think about.

Megabloks for example produces their own parts that are compatible with lego, but they're not stealing the designs, instructions and artwork, which is why we don't have a problem with them like we do with the direct knockoffs.

Saying that the issue is marketing and the cost is too high is irrelevant. Do you expect Rolex to produce a $5 copy of their watches just because everyone can't afford them? If not, do you expect some Chinese company to make and market a $5 copy of it just so you can get one?

13 hours ago, Anarich said:

Chinese manufacturers are able to quickly analyze the market and to produce a finished product for the price, good for shoppers. TLG company need to adopt an adaptive strategy that makes them more sensitive to market trends and demands. That's all

 

 

That's like saying I should be responsive to changing interest rates on my home loan  and start stealing money from banks to pay for my house!

[brunojj1]

The original reason why RM8 has started this topic was the fact, that the Chinese Lepin brand has gone so far that they not only made a rip-off the Lego Logo, parts, designs and artwork on the boxes. They now go so far that they literally steal the design of a popular MOC – namely the Avtoros Shaman 8x8 from Madoca, which is the most prominent recent example. The crime is that they even DIDN`T ASK the author or the manufacturer of the real vehicle, they didn´t offer any kind of licence agreement or shares from the profit, compensation or anything like that! They are simply throwing it into the market to make a lot of dirty money, profiting of a MOC design which the designer is offering FOR FREE TO EVERYBODY OUT OF PURE KINDNESS! This unbelievable audacity is so rude, I can´t describe how angry this makes me feel! I will think twice and triple before I´ll share building instructions of my designs in future again - thanks to the thiefs..

On 1.11.2016 at 8:59 AM, Anarich said:

....

The problem is that the TLG does not want to adapt to the market influenced by the new players (china companies). It's all about marketing. For example spending out about 250 or 300 euros for a new Porsche isn't something everyone will accept. On the other side are the MOC makers and their creations. TLG can also get benefits of their hard work by simply inviting these people to work together or etc. 

....

 

I agree mostly on this though, it´s a valid argument IMO! The love of money is the root of all evil.. There should be new creative ways of participation in the business for all the mentioned parties to be found.

[Anarich]

Well, my hobbies besides LEGO include console gaming, diecast cars collecting and scale railroads. I probably have too many hobbies actually. I bought the ultimate digital starter set from Piko for 210 EUR plus shipping 32 EUR from Germany. Consisting of two digital locomotives, freight wagons, passenger coaches, track and digital
controller with "remote control" style controller. The large oval with multiple turnouts. That's what I call it "Value for money".

Compare this premium set (for the small population of train-lovers) with the recently released "Porsche" from TLG Technic line with no PF, Motors,etc. Just an overpriced beautiful box with a plastic parts and a manual with errors.(check the technic section of eurobricks community).

So TLG produces toys (for kids and AFOL's) from a plastic, not a Rolex's. Setting a price that is too high will at best limit your business growth. There is some opportunity to reduce the price, which is inherent in the product.  And the Chinese companies have taken advantage of this opportunity. That's my IMHO.

 

 

 

 

[Robianco]

As the largest toy company in the world and one who's fastest growing market is Asia I'm not sure their pricing structure is limiting their growth.

What a product is made from is irrelevant to the conversation. 

Chinese companies have stolen ideas and therefore don't pay and designer costs, research costs, development costs, marketing costs, cheaper print costs, cheaper plastic costs, less quality control... This isn't just about that's plastic and this is plastic so they should cost the same.

If Lepin had developed even a single Technics or Modular set with a unique design then they'd have some merit but just because someone sells a replica item cheaper doesn't mean the original item is then overpriced.

[Big G]

Grabs the bag of popcorn, sits back and watches, waiting for this one to be locked too

[Robianco]

As this thread isn't promoting bootleg sets then maybe it'll stay open. Its at least coming at it from a different angle.

I must admit I don't understand the 'If they make it cheaper then that's Lego's fault' stance. Any consumer product is priced due to various reasons from development costs, to marketing, manufacturing, development, testing all the way up to brand marque. Apple don't sell iPhones for £100... but they probably have them made for much less than that. So why don't competitors make equally good products and sell them much cheaper? Samsung  (up until the Note 7 fiasco) made a product of equal quality... superior in some ways people might way... but they don't sell them cheaper than Apple. The Rolex analogy is another one... A lot of the cost of a Rolex is down to brand marque. But if you can create and craft a watch as good as a Rolex and sell it for less then don't copy a Rolex Daytona or Submariner. Lots of companies do. Lego are the number one toy company in the world not because they make cheap toys but because they make great quality toys... and they have price points allowing people of almost any income to own Lego products.

If clone brand bricks are getting to be the same quality as Lego then employ a designer and make your own sets that are compatible with Lego or contact a MOCer and ask them about buying a design. If they did that they might even end up with their own thread on a board like this.

[Anarich]

I agree with you about the bad practices of the Chinese bootleg brands to clone everything and everywhere. But... We are talking about a good quality control from TLG and we are faced with the poor quality control practices in "Ultimate Porsche set". For example the set includes decisive mistakes in manual, the gearbox does not working properly as expected and sometimes stall completely.