BrickTracks: different curves, PF/9V compatible

[M_slug357]

@Ludo There's got to be some way around these heavy import & VAT taxes!! 25% is downright ludicrous!!

IF there aren't any exploitable loopholes within the EU, maybe:

1) @coaster could have a promotional deal for 1st time buyers in the EU? Like a 30% discount on orders over 500 euro?

2) Some sort of partnership with a store that's already in the EU, either physically or on BrickLink? I would imagine taxes to be less severe in the EU for business-to-business sales versus business-to-consumer sales.

3) Set up a Kessel Run to smuggle the tracks into the EU, and maybe airdrop the crates of track...?

[Ludo]

1 hour ago, M_slug357 said:

@Ludo There's got to be some way around these heavy import & VAT taxes!! 25% is downright ludicrous!!

IF there aren't any exploitable loopholes within the EU, maybe:

1) @coaster could have a promotional deal for 1st time buyers in the EU? Like a 30% discount on orders over 500 euro?

2) Some sort of partnership with a store that's already in the EU, either physically or on BrickLink? I would imagine taxes to be less severe in the EU for business-to-business sales versus business-to-consumer sales.

3) Set up a Kessel Run to smuggle the tracks into the EU, and maybe airdrop the crates of track...?

The 'normal 'VAT in Belgium is 21% for 'luxury' goods and 6% on food.

Despite that we are part of the EU, VAT depends from EU country to EU country.

I don't know how it works for bussiness-to-bussiness import.

I guess there's import taxes on the goods, don't know how many % it is, and when it's sold then there's the 21% VAT added to the netto retail price.

I hope @HoMa is still reading this treath, and can give his experience with import & VAT for Germany.

As an AFOL customer who can't buy without VAT, is it interesting to know that we pay the VAT % in the country where we buy.

Let's say Belgium have 21% VAT & France have 19% VAT, could it interesting to buy it in France.

The 2% gain on VAT is not much on low amounts, but can make a difference with larger orders.

Still one thing we may not forget is the margin of profit for the seller AND the constantly increasing shipping costs!

Paid past week 25 EURO for a parcel (2,905kg) comming from France.

if the total sales price (margin of profit  + import tax (bussiness-to-business) + VAT+ netto price of the article + shipping) surpass the price we pay for direct import despite the taxes, then we could buy it directly at the source.

To make a long story short, it will be expensive for us.

 

[coaster]

The shipping costs outside of the US are brutal.  I try to absorb some of the cost to help you guys out, but there is nothing I can do about the VAT.  Even with EU distribution, you still will pay the VAT.  It would, in theory, help the shipping cost though to ship a bulk package, trimming that cost a bit.

I've not had any luck sourcing an EU distributor.  So if anyone wants the job, shoot me a line.

[HoMa]

@Ludo, yes still reading this thread! In Germany it is similar to other EU countries. We have 19% VAT (called Mehrwertsteuer) on most products. If I buy within the EU I pay the price marked in the country selling the product (plus shipping, which is in general much more expressive then shipping inside the country). If it is an EU country which has no Euro currency as in Germany I have to consider the exchange rate. But inside the EU this is more less stable, not comparable with Euro to US $.

If I buy from outside the EU the parcel is normally not delivered to my front door. Instead a letter from the local customs office tells me that a parcel is waiting to be picked up. The letter also says to bring the original invoiced plus records of the payment, e.g. PayPal emails.

At the office you are asked to open the parcel and then they check the content. An invoice with the same amount should be attached to the parcel or should be found in the parcel. Then the officer disappears behind his desk and calculates the extra costs for importing the product. You need to pay the 19 % Mehrwertsteuer/VAT on both the product and the shipping costs. If the total value is higher then (something round about) 150 Euro, you need to pay an additional import custom tax (I don't know the exact percentage because I avoid expensive shippings from outside the EU).

These days customs also keep an eye on clone products, IP misuse and on conformity. I heard about people who could not get their Big Ben Bricks wheels imported because there was no CE sign and not letter of conformity. Also worse if the plastic stuff in the parcel is labeled as a toy. (Model railroad parts, 16+ seems to work better then just 'toy')

To summarize all this: it's no fun buying stuff from outside the EU.

I was lucky that my friend who lives in the USA took my BrickTracks R120 circle in his luggage when he came home for last Christmas. But this could not be a regular service, normally travel luggage doesn't offer much space for extras and waiting till he comes over the next time can be long.

Unfortunately I don't have any good idea how to help both the customers in the EU or worldwide outside of the USA and the business producing the required stuff.

@coaster, on Bricklink I am just a buyer, but I can ask in the German forum at 1000steine.de if there is a German based Bricklink shop which is interested as a European hub for BrickTracks.

HoMa 

P.S. Request posted at 1000steine:

https://www.1000steine.de/de/gemeinschaft/forum/?entry=1&id=393378#id393378

Edited January 14, 2018 by HoMa
Typos and P.S.

[BrickMusher]

1 hour ago, HoMa said:

If the total value is higher then (something round about) 150 Euro, you need to pay an additional import custom tax

Jep, 4,75% in addition to the 19% VAT

If you stay below 25€ (including shipping), it´s just free of charge, you dont even have to pay VAT.

 

4DBrix runs a european BrickLink-Shop in addition to their US-based one. I once bought tracks and it was quite comfortable. Anyway, the € prices are somewhat over USD, but lower than importing as a privat buyer. Think thats ok since they have to do some work extra....

 

If you travel from US to D, you are allowed to bring gifts and purchases with a value not exceeding 420€, otherwise you have to pay the VAT also.

So what, waiting for TTIP ? (watch out, sarcasm!)

 

Maybe you can deliver seperate parts that will be assembled together in the EU? Than you can allready call it "Made in EU/Germany/insert a country of your choice" No Idea if this will help to minimize customs 

 

However, I dont live in the EU anymore so I am out at this point....

 

BrickMusher

Edited January 14, 2018 by BrickMusher
corrected a word

[3797]

On 11.1.2018 at 9:11 AM, Aaron said:

Is the quality of those any decent though? Last time I bought Chinese knockoff tracks they were warped like hot dogs to hell and back again. The only use I could think of for them was for inclines, but I ended up just giving them away to my nephew since he's still a toddler and wouldn't give a shit either way.

No idea. The quality of the Lepin sets is said to be pretty good. It surely can't be worse than ME track or that 3D printed crap. I wouldn't buy the older Ausini track (light blueish grey with the thin sleepers), though. It simply sticks out too much and I wasn't too impressed by the various Ausini reviews that I watched on YouTube.

On 11.1.2018 at 10:12 AM, K-Style said:

I just found a local* shop selling genuine straight track x 20 for Au$59 + shipping. Add ebay discount code = win.  One pack already arrived and I've another on order.

When my most recent order arrives, I'll have a total of 294 straight PF tracks in my collection. All legit LEGO. I was patient (and lucky) and paid an average of about 1€/piece shipped. However, Au$59 + shipping doesn't sound too bad. Regular prices over here in Germany are about the same.

On 11.1.2018 at 4:24 PM, coaster said:

Thanks everyone.  Kinda where I was as well.  9V could very well change the dynamics of this though (a 4x 9V straight would be amazing!!!!).  We'll hold the course.

2x straights may make the most sense, if producing them doesn't cost you much more than regular 1x ones. You could potentially save on tooling and your customers would (probably) get more track for their money. Not sure about 4x. If there's more potential for saving yourself and your customers money, then go for it.

I have to be honest, though. Importing straight track will most likely turn out to be too expensive for me.

On 12.1.2018 at 4:00 PM, coaster said:

Ah, but that's because you don't have one of these: (removed picture)

It's an early version (don't have a picture of the current one), but you could use this to power your PF motors, creating a hybrid PF/9V system.  You can supply constant power to the track, and then use the IR receiver to independently drive the trains.

Not that we're working on such a device...

Those would certainly be fun to play with.

[M_slug357]

On 1/13/2018 at 12:28 PM, coaster said:

I've not had any luck sourcing an EU distributor.  So if anyone wants the job, shoot me a line.

Seems like Switzerland would be your best choice? According to the internet, Switzerland has a very low rate of 8%. If the VAT rate is determined by the country of origin (versus the destination), then this would cut most European customer's VAT rates in half or by 2/3rd's. I hate to say it, but there's probably a gimmick or catch to this low rate though Switzerland seems to be a good place to start?

Anyone in Switzerland on this board?

[pascalspruit]

1 hour ago, M_slug357 said:

there's probably a gimmick or catch to this low rate though Switzerland seems to be a good place to start

Switzerland is not part of the EU

[M_slug357]

6 hours ago, pascalspruit said:

Switzerland is not part of the EU

Wow, you made an account just to say that?

So what if Switzerland isn't part of the EU, it is still in Europe. That's half of the battle right there! And, if the Swiss pay only 8% for imported items, I imagine that those initial savings can be passed on-- even despite exchange rates & shipping fees, etc.-- to the end consumers throughout Europe.

 

[Capparezza]

7 hours ago, pascalspruit said:

Switzerland is not part of the EU

Yepp. And Swiss customs officers are very strict. So exporting to Switzerland and "smuggling" to neighbouring EU countries might not be a viable option (Edit: Dang, too late, somebody already mentioned it...)

 

What about selling through Amazon? I do not know the exact untertakings one has to do to sell there, but there is an option for "optimized" import customs and VAT handling. Yes, lots of paperwork. But the market will be much bigger than just the US. Import taxes is lost, but VAT on import can be claimed back, no matter from which European country the final delivery will be done. Here is a short PFD which outlines your possibilities: http://www.fbashipuk.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Import-to-Amazon-FBA-UK-and-EU-A-Guide-to-Customs-and-VAT.pdf.

 

Still, best way would be to find someone here in Europe helping out with business, someone already having experience with imports and selling.

Even if I'm not the right guy for the imports and the selling, I'll be happy to translate into German if you need any assistance

[Stefaneris]

10 hours ago, M_slug357 said:

Seems like Switzerland would be your best choice? According to the internet, Switzerland has a very low rate of 8%. If the VAT rate is determined by the country of origin (versus the destination), then this would cut most European customer's VAT rates in half or by 2/3rd's. I hate to say it, but there's probably a gimmick or catch to this low rate though Switzerland seems to be a good place to start?

Anyone in Switzerland on this board?

There is this gimmick called customs as @Capparezza already said. Since everything would pass a customs office twice if the tracks would be shipped from the US to Switzerland and then to the EU it may be chaeper for the Swiss guys (well, me) but not for the ones ordering from the EU.

@M_slug357 I think the opposite, however I have no experience selling stuff to the EU from the US via Switzerland.

@coaster There is the Brickshop.nl who sold ME-Models track. Maybe he can help.

[3797]

7 hours ago, Capparezza said:

What about selling through Amazon?

Terrible idea. They take a huge cut and are generally a super shady company and potentially the biggest threat to the world economy. Either them or China. Either way, no one who wants to keep his/her/a job should use Amazon. Ever. I wouldn't buy BT tracks off of them even if it saved me 75%.

7 hours ago, M_slug357 said:

So what if Switzerland isn't part of the EU, it is still in Europe.

So what if Canada isn't the 51st state, it is still in America.

There is no legal solution that wouldn't end up costing us more than just paying VAT and customs.

[M_slug357]

3 hours ago, 3797 said:

...So what if Canada isn't the 51st state, it is still in America...

*ahem* I believe you mean the 52nd state, after Puerto Rico...?

 

 

 

Is there really no way to get lower import taxes? Is anyone over there a tax specialist? There's got to be a path or two left that is still uncharted...

[cptkent]

Long post cut down...

How about a bit of lateral thinking?  Ie, sell some shares in the molds:

 - I want 50 straights

 - I buy 50 ‘shares’* in the ‘straight mold’ at $5 each**

 - My 50 shares entitle me to an option of purchasing 50 straights at 20c each***

 - My 50 straights are taxed at $10 when shipped.

*’Shares’ may not be the right word. There is no intent to sell my shares later. The money stays with the manufacturer.

**$5 is an example only, depends on the part.

***20c is a nominal figure. This is what your tax is based on. Lower figure = less tax

 

I’m sure there’s a term for this kind of arrangement. I’m not sure of its legality;-)

 

Edited January 16, 2018 by cptkent
Formatting, spelling.

[Capparezza]

10 hours ago, 3797 said:

Terrible idea. They take a huge cut and are generally a super shady company and potentially the biggest threat to the world economy.

Okay, didn't know... Can you elaborate a bit on "take a huge cut"? What can you expect on expenses flowing directly to Amazon?

[Ludo]

@cptkent You have to know that customs are alowed to open parcels if they 'smell' some anomalies.

So, perhaps a few parcels will pass, but once they open a parcel, and it's declared value is too low according their view, you will pay all taxes plus a fine on top of the total.

Google is your best friend, also for customs, who can check the sale price and compaire it with the declared value.

I know there's no way to avoid import and VAT, but if the value of the track could be lowered, cut in the shipping cost + profit marge for the reseller, it could be interesting to buy the track in Europe.

 

[K-Style]

My tracks arrived. My son and I connected them up to Lego straights and had a hard time telling the difference apart from the BT on the studs. I only got 2 x 104 and 1 x 120 to start with we'll have to build some interesting layouts until I order some more corners. 

Cheers to coaster and co.

 

Edited January 18, 2018 by K-Style

[raised]

I love your ideas to surpass import taxes to lower the prices. But, as Ludo already said, that ain't going to work. If it did, we in the EU would have been flooded with, for example, US-made products in the last 20 years. Instead, we have been seeing a flood of Asian-made products. Why? Because their products are cheaper to produce (lower costs of labour, lower costs of housing & utilities), thus cost less, which in turn means that import taxes and VAT are lower. The only other thing that could work, is producing locally, thus cirumpassing the import taxes. However, even in Europe most of the production is nowadays centered towards the Eastern EU countries due to lower labour, housing and utilities costs (for example, most of our cars are nowadays build in countries like Hungary and Slovakia, heck even TLC nowadays has their main factories in Hungary and Czech Republic...). Or production in China. However, that means that you will lose your direct influence on the quality, since for any quality control you will be dependent on Skype, samples send to you, or actually flying to the production locations. Even TLC themselves haven't solved this issue properly, as far as I recall the special pieces made in China for the Collectable Minifig Line still are to some degree inferior to the Billund-produced legos. Potentially, he could set up an import-export firm for Europe which imports the tracks for production costs, then selling them in Europe for profits, but this creates some very messy stuff which more looks like how multinationals work then a one-man-shop from a guy with some awesome ideas and great engineering skills. 

Conclusion: Only when Coaster is willing to relocate prodution (or starting a franchise with copies of the molds, but this means some EU citizen will need to invest in getting identical molds made), which I highly doubt he will be wanting to do (and which I can fully understand, see above), or when he is going to become a multinational like TLC themselves, we EU citizens will have to accept that we need to pay some extra taxes. 

The only options I see in the short run: Sending the tracks to a EU country with lower VAT and/or import taxes (even though we are an union, all our countries have our own VAT and import tax tarifs) and then transferring within the internal market without extra taxes (long live the internal market of the EU!) or just going on holidays to the US and buying your tracks locally. 

(Then again, I'm neither a production specialist, nor do I have any experience in these commercial schemes, so please all take them with a pinch of salt ;))

[Ludo]

@raised, Don't forget that we have high shipping cost in the EU too.

Some Bricklink stores don't add shipping cost when ordered above a certain value, while others don't.

 

Edited January 18, 2018 by Ludo

[raised]

1 hour ago, Ludo said:

@raised, Don't forget that we have high shipping cost in the EU too.

Some Bricklink stores don't add shipping cost when ordered above a certain value, while others don't.

 

True, completely forgot about that. Might make my little scheme of import in the lowest taxed country also a bit more expensive... 

[zephyr1934]

On 1/11/2018 at 11:12 PM, cptkent said:

Stick to the KISS principle - there’s a lot of suggestions about exotic parts, but things that should sell well are:

 - 9v straight. Original product is rare, there’s still demand. 1x and 2x. Later ½x

 - 9v R72 (R56 is a bit close to R40)

 - 9v R104

 - some kind of R72 switch or crossover.

Come back later and fill in the gaps for R56 and R88

ie, don’t make anything that can be currently obtained/ modified easily or cheaply.

im certainly watching with interest.

Excellent start, though I'd go even simpler for the first round, just do R104 curves in 9v (or R88). Then second, add 32 stud long 9v straights (folks already have or can get the standard straights), keeps the power loss down at the rail joints by cutting the number in half.

 

On 1/12/2018 at 10:00 AM, coaster said:

Ah, but that's because you don't have one of these:

It's an early version (don't have a picture of the current one), but you could use this to power your PF motors, creating a hybrid PF/9V system.  You can supply constant power to the track, and then use the IR receiver to independently drive the trains.

Not that we're working on such a device...

Oh wow! You have been a busy bee haven't you?

[HiFish]

Oh wow, i'd love one of those!

Here is my Suggestion on how to deal with the import-tariffs and VAT: It could be done in a way similar to the scheme used by nike or the other big multinationals, as explained in the paradise papers. At least for now this seems to be legal. A quick summary can be read here: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/nov/06/nike-tax-paradise-papers. This could be structured to avoid just VAT and tarrifs instead of avoiding all taxes in general like they do :-D 

Edited January 21, 2018 by HiFish

[Capparezza]

@HiFish Err.... for a start: That link is dead. And I sincerely hope you're not urging Coaster to setup a multi-company-construct just to avoid taxes? I don't know how costly it is to set up multiple companies, but it surely is beyond the scope of Coaster's business.

[M_slug357]

Whether they're real or shell companies, those do require some serious capital to create & maintain...

[HiFish]

No, i was thinking of something a bit simpler. I only read up on the Details for Germany on this, since i work in IT and have to deal with (occasionally international) procurement. When Importing Goods and Services online there is a difference between (both virtual and physical) goods and services, and also between companys and private citicens. the simplified version for business to business transactions is this: You have to pay the tax of the place where the good or service is delivered or rendered. So if i pay for an ebook and download it i have to pay the VAT-Tarrifs and so on, just like with regular goods. But if i pay for services, like accessing an online learning course on a platform running somewhere outside the EU, i legally don't have to pay german import-tariff, but instead the VAT of the country where this service is rendered.

For example, as far as i know, a german company could pay Coaster (his company) to run a website/webserver/online shop in the US for a price of his choosing, including the "license rights" to his trademarks and whatever else you can think of that is needed to run a shop without infringing on his rights without having to pay german import-tariff / VAT on that, except the regular VAT that applies at the seat of his company (hopefully Delaware ;-))

He could sell the tracks to this company the regular way, but as a reduced price to compensate for the regualr import-tarrif on regular goods. 

This should be done in a way for him to make his usal bottom line, without loosing any money by selling to us  Europeans.

Once the Tracks are in Germany, they can be legally sold by the aforementioned company, which should be so small it is a registered "Kleingewerbe" (tax exempt), so there is no additional VAT. Im not sure if this works for all EU country's, because so far i have only dealt with imports.

If you think this is crazy, yes, german tax laws on the whole are insane.