8421XXL

A Single Square Bound Instruction Book, Yes or No?

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37 minutes ago, Captainowie said:

This argument does not convince me. If a 7yo attempts something that has "16+" written on the box as an age recommendation and doesn't need help, then either that 7yo is a genius, or else the product is too simple for its intended audience.

That's not to say that 7yos shouldn't attempt to build flagship technic models, only that they shouldn't expect to be able to do it without assistance.

Owen.

I couldn't agree more. If instructions were harder, they would be able to print the b model instructions and still use less paper and ink. 

If anything, people say kids are smarter today than before, so instructions should match this.

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I prefer digital.  Helps free up space on my building desk.  I can't stand the glare from lighting on paper instructions.  I did however notice the instruction color quality this year has improved.

I store my instructions in file folder hangers in a filing cabinet so size doesn't matter.

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The age indication on the box is not a recommendation. It has to do with durability etc. Sets for lower ages tend to break less easy and are less delicate, can be thrown against the wall and stuff like that. The higher the age, the more delicate the set. Something like that. So it's more a quality control slash legislation thing, than a recommendation when someone is able to build a set.

I like the big books. I store them in boxes, so that's no problem. The only problem I do see is that you can't build a set together with someone else. Multiple booklets allow for joined building, especially when a set has numbered bags.

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10 hours ago, paul_delahaye said:

Going back to the 80's, some of those steps were impossible to follow.

 

Impossible? Which sets were you unable to build? Maybe we can help you ?

As to the large books, I'm indifferent to the format. I do have issue with over simplified instructions, however. As a kid, I looked to Technic for a build challenge, as well as a learning experience. The first "Technical" sets offered this, and still do require concentration to build. Modern Technic set instructions offer little challenge. The fact that 6 year olds can build them without assistance makes that clear. 

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47 minutes ago, Boulderer said:

As a kid, I looked to Technic for a build challenge, as well as a learning experience. The first "Technical" sets offered this, and still do require concentration to build. Modern Technic set instructions offer little challenge. The fact that 6 year olds can build them without assistance makes that clear. 

You have a point. Although my son is taking advantage of simple instructions right now and in general simple instructions may appeal to a wider audience, there is certainly something to say for challenging instructions too.

Brings me to another idea I had some time ago. Would be nice if LEGO offered a LDD-file for each model so people can build from LDD instead of from BIs if they want a real challenge. Building from LDD requires you to find your own building path, which can be very challenging.

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Just now, Didumos69 said:

Brings me to another idea I had some time ago. Would be nice if LEGO offered a LDD-file for each model so people can build from LDD instead of from BIs if they want a real challenge. Building from LDD requires you to find your own building path, which can be very challenging.

There's a simple solution for that; wait a couple of days/weeks and it's available in EB's LDD forum :wink:

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11 minutes ago, Jim said:

There's a simple solution for that; wait a couple of days/weeks and it's available in EB's LDD forum :wink:

Of course! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

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14 hours ago, mattthewise said:

I like thick books. It gives a sense of increased value, at least for me it does. It feels like this is worth the money I paid for it, especially for the BWE. It also adds to feeling like a true achievement when you get finished. Plus the book is a bit more durable now that they're being bound instead of stapled.

True about the achievement feeling, almost like you finished a huge educational book!

If they would go back to smaller volumes I for sure want them to be without staples! Use proper glueing technique instead!

Interesting response to this message.

I did not realize this before, but is indeed true that the build steps nowadays are "simplified".

I tend to agree with those who say Technic sets may be more challanging to build as they are now. One way, and easiest I think, is to reduce number of build steps.

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When you have multiple thin books that go together to form a single model, it's much easier to lose track.

With a single book, at least you have everything together, so no "half instructions" anymore. And the fact that the books were split just somewhere randomly, instead of in a position that made any sense, has always been something that bothered me.

But to be really honest... with the exception of Architecture or special sets, I only use the books once, so for me it's paying for paper waste anyway. So, purely personally, I wouldn't mind if sets came without books altogether. I can use my tablet if I want to build a set.

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The main issue I have with the PDF instructions is the contrast between the colours. The darker colours cause me more problems than any "impossible" 80's instructions ever did. 

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3 hours ago, Boulderer said:

The main issue I have with the PDF instructions is the contrast between the colours. The darker colours cause me more problems than any "impossible" 80's instructions ever did. 

Yeah, they do need to fix that... I was trying to build an Ent I bought using instructions online, and it was a real pain to distinguish between different tones of brown.

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On 9/28/2016 at 10:23 PM, J_C said:

I would disagree about "too many, too simple steps" complaints.

Sure, it is designed for older kids, but on the other hand my 7yo daughter can build all alone (me serving only as "find the part slave" :sweet: ) big sets. If the instructions would be designed just for teenagers and AFOLs only, she would get frustrated or discouraged because she needs help and probably would say halfway: "I do not like this" and walk away. This way, there is lots of fun and enjoyment even if she is theoretically too young for the set.

LEGO is toy, for kids...do you remember kids? Lets (us AFOLs) be tolerant about too many steps, because at the end of the day, it does not prohibit us, but other way round it could be prohibitive for kids. And that would be big shame if you ask me.

Well said. I'd rather flip twice or thrice as many pages than see my girls discouraged by Technic sets. I'm also happy to see the highlights for new parts in big Creator sets, they're making the building experience for my wife and I appreciate that.

But still, we all prefer thin or digital instructions in this family :)

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I like having the instructions in one single volume, but when you build a larger set together with your partner or even child, several booklets make completely sense and add to the fun.

I really wonder though how much of the price is for the instructions. Paper gets more and more expensive and since Lego uses a lot of steps, even small sets have instructions with a lot of pages. Looking at sets from the eighties, they were very brief (and sometimes pretty unclear). I assume the sheer volume of the instructions today (many steps) play a quite significant role today to keep them intersting toys indeed.

They may never abandon printed instructions, and go for pdf downloads or so, btw, since they are just so conveniently low tech and simple to handle :wink: I'm sure it has been considered though!

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IMO: I would hate, hate, hate pdf only LEGO. I would print it anyway. I spend 99% of my work-time behind computer. I do not want to stare at another screen in fun-time.

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1 hour ago, J_C said:

IMO: I would hate, hate, hate pdf only LEGO. I would print it anyway. I spend 99% of my work-time behind computer. I do not want to stare at another screen in fun-time.

Thats very much how I feel too. Its just healthy for human life to not look at a screen for a change!

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I also built flagship models at the age of 7...9.

EDIT: the age restriction may be due to the general attitude of smaller children. They can follow steps, but I'm not sure they would pay attention to make sure everything in every step runs smoothly. And in a model like Porsche, it's a crucial thing.

I prefer few steps per step, because for me, finding all the places where parts are inserted is not a challenge but simply an annoying and tiresome procedure.

Plus, I believe, it was more straightforward in the studded area when Technic models were made from bottom to top layer by layer so it was easy to follow (one step-one complete layer). Now with studless, when there's hardy anything left of these layers, you are not working on one layer at a time but on an arbitrary volume at a time usually with no specific borders and it would be very frustrating to follow if parts would be to be inserted at any place in the model, and these small volumes do require one-two parts per step.

Any time I made pdf instructions, I usually find myself ending up with 1-2-3 steps per step.

To be on topic, it doesn't matter for me since I don't collect booklets. I was afraid of single booklets, the biggest model I built from them was the 42053, and it worked well.

Edited by Lipko

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12 hours ago, J_C said:

IMO: I would hate, hate, hate pdf only LEGO. I would print it anyway. I spend 99% of my work-time behind computer. I do not want to stare at another screen in fun-time.

I agree with that! Also, I tend to build on the couch so I am with my family. Having to build at the computer would mean I am alone in a room instead of with them.

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The last model I built with new-style instructions, I "gathered" the parts from two or three pages, and then built them by just looking at the last of the pictures on those pages.  I then glanced back at the previous pages to double-check.  I too preferred the old style (my fav being 8880 SuperCar) of lots of bits at a time, and fewer steps, but you can still work this way.

I'd hate to have no paper copy, and think Lego should sell paper copies of the B models.  It would be much cheaper for Lego to get them printed in bulk and to post them out, than for each of us to print them at home.  (For those of us who no longer work in an office with a fast colour printer :pir-sad2:)

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I can still read my LEGO instruction booklets from the 1980s.  Wish I can say the same for my Beta video tapes and 8" floppy disks.   Who knows what's going to happen to PDF format and devices that can still read them 30 years from now?

1 hour ago, Chilly said:

... (For those of us who no longer work in an office with a fast colour printer :pir-sad2:)

Some are smart enough now to keep track of who is printing and how many pages so that cost can be charged back to your department.  Not good if your manager scrutinize all your costs.

 

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7 minutes ago, dr_spock said:

 

I can still read my LEGO instruction booklets from the 1980s.  Wish I can say the same for my Beta video tapes and 8" floppy disks.   Who knows what's going to happen to PDF format and devices that can still read them 30 years from now?

 

I can't ever clap long enough and loud enough! Bravo for this comment. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

I can still make picture from negatives my great-grandfather took, will I be able to have a look at jpg 30years from now? I can't read the letter I wrote in T602 only 25y ago.

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You won't have any trouble reading PDFs or JPEGs in 30 years unless civilization collapses. Because of the internet its possible to read many obscure obsolete file formats easily, and something as ubiquitous as those formats will not go away without plenty of means to port them to a newer format. What is mostly a problem with files from the early days of computers is the obscure physical media and hardware to read them. Its all but certain that paper instructions will go away at some point. As long as they make the format higher quality by then I'm ok with it (and PDF could do it if they let the files be larger).

As to the larger books, I have problems holding them open at the beginning and end and for that reason prefer the simpler stapled instructions. I also like when sets that have multiple buildings/vehicles/etc having instructions for each separately. 

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4 hours ago, J_C said:

I can't ever clap long enough and loud enough! Bravo for this comment. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

I can still make picture from negatives my great-grandfather took, will I be able to have a look at jpg 30years from now? I can't read the letter I wrote in T602 only 25y ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_Document_Format

 

Developed by Adobe Systems
Initial release June 15, 1993; 23 years ago

 

I think PDF will be fine...  we've made it this far, and it's still perfectly readable :)

interestingly.. it's older than jpg format, which first arrived in 1994!   .gif arrived in 1987..  and png 'only' 19 years ago...

 

 

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1 hour ago, RohanBeckett said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_Document_Format

 

Developed by Adobe Systems
Initial release June 15, 1993; 23 years ago

 

I think PDF will be fine...  we've made it this far, and it's still perfectly readable :)

interestingly.. it's older than jpg format, which first arrived in 1994!   .gif arrived in 1987..  and png 'only' 19 years ago...

 

 

interesting I learnt something new!

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9 hours ago, dr_spock said:

I can still read my LEGO instruction booklets from the 1980s.  Wish I can say the same for my Beta video tapes and 8" floppy disks.   Who knows what's going to happen to PDF format and devices that can still read them 30 years from now?

Like a few others I care to differ. The difference is that there will be a public interest in pdf being around that goes further than just having aged pdf-based BIs available. There won't be much public interest in your personal copies 30 years from now, unless they are rare, but that would also indicate they are above all ephemeral.

Edited by Didumos69

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