Pirate theme getting worse

[Govoner Brick]

This is a trend happening across all classic themes. Pirates 2009, while being fairly generic, was a very good theme. Pirates 2015 was a clear recession. The same can be said for Kingdoms and Castle 2013. Space is next up, I expect a new Space theme soon that introduces nothing new and is discontinued after one year.

I very much agree with this, however, in other themes what I've noticed is that you have a bad year for the theme but then a good one next time the same theme or a remake of a set comes out.

[IvanTheBuilder]

I’ve gone and edited out the unnecessary content from your post. In such cases it really is not necessary to quote the entire message nor is it particularly wise to make comment on the length of the post then proceed to repost it in its entirety.

U guys are brutal I just started here.

[daben]

I like the blue coat idea of 2015 Pirates line and hope that the new Pirates of the caribbean movie http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1790809/ brings us new Pirates sets.

[mon-o-mat]

I think, 2015 was better than 2009. Yes, the sets were smaller but they are much more detailed and look better.(Except for the Soldiers' Fort, those were bad in both waves.)

But i think Pirates has two problems:

-To cartoonish. While Lego pirates were always not to serious, the last two waves had the quality of cereal-pirates.

-The difference in size between the pirate-ship and the other sets ist to big. There is just no conflict between half a meter of ship with three cannons per side and those one room fortresses. In the past those were bigger, while there also were smaller ships and many couldn't even afford the biggest ships like the Black Seas Barracuda.

I think a good new way would be to make fantasy pirates, similliar to PotC or if you know it Risen2. Basically still very cliché pirates but with character, bits of magic, creatures and mysteries

[Capn Frank]

U guys are brutal I just started here.

I do not think so. We do have certain expectations for how members are supposed to post. I recommend you check out the Posting Standards: A Message for All Members Topic, which is linked in the Eurobricks FAQ.

Such comments you made below do not add to the discussion and aren't needed. Just provide your response after you've read TalonCard's response, and you do not need to have a large quote for a short response. If you have any questions, feel free to send me a private message.

Sorry man i currently have no time to read this.

[Robert8]

BUT. 2019 will be the thirtieth anniversary of the Pirate theme--LEGO can't let that go unobserved. I can't imagine they wouldn't bring their A-game to at least one big set--I'm looking forward to it.

TC

I hope you're right!

I want an updated Eldorado Fortress

[BrickJagger]

While I would love a proper Pirates theme in 2019, I'm not sure it can happen. If Lego makes POTC5 sets next year, would they then make sets for the inevitable sixth film, perhaps in 2020? That might not give them enough time for a new Pirates theme.

However, since they did make a regular theme in 2009 and POTC4 sets in 2011 I guess it's conceivable.

We could potentially be seeing a lot of new Pirate-related sets in the very near future.

[Pulp Detective]

While I was not particular fan of the buillds from PotC line back in 2011,I absolutely loved the minifigs.They had incredible detail which is exactly what a minifigure addict like me wants.

If Lego does make PotC 5 sets I hope they put the same quality in the builds as well.

Now whenever the regular Pirates line returns,I want them to put some effort on the sets this time around because looking at last years wave you can cleary see that this wasn't the case.

I mean the 2009 wave was rather simplistic but perfect at the same time.

[Staslegomaster]

I quite agree that every time pirates become worse. It has been the most popular and outstanding series from 1989 till 1999s. To my mind the wirst pirates are sky pirates.To remember golden times of LEGO pirates and to return them I created my vercion of pirates chess. I'd like to know what LEGO fans think about them. And what do you know about pirates future sets?

[x105Black]

I quite agree that every time pirates become worse. It has been the most popular and outstanding series from 1989 till 1999s. To my mind the wirst pirates are sky pirates.To remember golden times of LEGO pirates and to return them I created my vercion of pirates chess. I'd like to know what LEGO fans think about them. And what do you know about pirates future sets?

Does Sky Pirates count? Isn't that just villains from Ninjago, and not a Pirate theme?

[Staslegomaster]

Does Sky Pirates count? Isn't that just villains from Ninjago, and not a Pirate theme?

I'm not sure but perhaps it's just a sub-theme like Islanders have been a sub- theme of pirates since 1994/. When Islanders became 21 years of age I created my 2d LEGO ideas project to mark it and called it Kahuka 21.

[Pimbo]

Were the "classics" all that great or were just easily impressed as children?

Much can be said for the latter, but compare the Black Seas Barracuda with the Brick Bounty.... or compare the Eldorado Fortress with the 6242 fort.... yeah I'd say the classics actually were "all that great". (Maybe not filled to the brim with pre-defined play features, but did we really need those when we were kids?)

BUT. 2019 will be the thirtieth anniversary of the Pirate theme--LEGO can't let that go unobserved. I can't imagine they wouldn't bring their A-game to at least one big set--I'm looking forward to it.

Curious, is there any evidence that TLG would consider these anniversaries is their product line planning? Other than the promotional minifig here and there

[David Thomsen]

Regarding a 30th anniversary celebration of some sort, I don't think that's likely, just because Lego haven't shown any inclination to celebrate the 30th anniversary of things. Look at the classic Yellow Castle from 1978 - the 30th anniversary of that would have been in 2008, but nothing from that year celebrates its anniversary, and that's a hugely iconic set. Pretty much every year is the 20th, 25th, 30th anniversary of something.

Anyway, regarding the topic of 'Pirates theme getting worse', I don't think it is, really. I think the sets are just different, and have a high quality in a different way. The 2009 and 2015 Pirate sets were just products of their time, as the 1989 Pirates were. I really enjoy both, and because I can't get hold of the original Pirate sets at a decent price, I'm quite content with the more recent sets.

[Captain Dee]

This topic has been pretty well covered, but I'm with David on this one. I also can't help but wonder where the "special anniversary release" idea comes from, beyond simply being wishful thinking and a pipe dream. Where is the precedent? Yeah, I like the idea, but I'm not aware of this routinely happening with other themes, if at all.

Regarding the topic question: I wouldn't say that the newer Pirates sets are necessarily worse. The minifigs are generally better (some are still cartoonish) with their more detailed designs and back printing, and some of the newer accessories are really nice. I agree too with the thought that the sets were all a product of their times: as the basic company design criteria change, the sets change as well.

I can find good and bad from across the range of sets - based of course on my opinion. The 2015 Soldier's Fort is a joke, but the Outpost is nice. I actually liked the Loot island base (if not the set) for building small island MOCs. The last two pirate ships - the Bounty's - seem rather uninspired and bland, but the big IFS was pretty good.

I think part of the perception of a worsening theme is based on oft-replicated ideas, which I find uncreative and unimaginative, and also the lack of big land-based sets like El Dorado in particular. The short shelf life and lack of a second wave don't help the perception either. If we had numerous new sets (and new set ideas) to occupy our attention each year (like the classic sets from 1989-96) I think we'd probably all have a little better appreciation for the new stuff.

I'm glad we got the '09 and '15 sets, and while I definitely agree they could've been better, I'm not ready to say the entire theme has worsened substantially just yet.

[x105Black]

I think part of the perception of a worsening theme is based on oft-replicated ideas, which I find uncreative and unimaginative, and also the lack of big land-based sets like El Dorado in particular. The short shelf life and lack of a second wave don't help the perception either. If we had numerous new sets (and new set ideas) to occupy our attention each year (like the classic sets from 1989-96) I think we'd probably all have a little better appreciation for the new stuff.

I'm glad we got the '09 and '15 sets, and while I definitely agree they could've been better, I'm not ready to say the entire theme has worsened substantially just yet.

I agree. I think the repetition of ideas works against the theme (the same happens with Castle). I'll also agree that the size difference is a big change, too. But while the newer sets are smaller, there's a lot more packed into them in the way of better minifigures, accessories, and other parts.

So, in some ways the Pirates theme seems worse (stale ideas and size), but in others, I'd say it's much better (minifigures, accessories, techniques). As much as I would love big sets like El Dorado, and the repetition gets to me, I'd say everything else makes up for it and the end result is a net gain.

[Staslegomaster]

So just lets wait for the 30th jubilee of classic pirates.It's rather long to wait but if LEGO fans will often ask about it TLJ will mark the jubilee, perhaps reissueing the most iconic sets.there is a hint in the rirate promotional set of 2014.

[TalonCard]

Regarding a 30th anniversary celebration of some sort, I don't think that's likely, just because Lego haven't shown any inclination to celebrate the 30th anniversary of things. Look at the classic Yellow Castle from 1978 - the 30th anniversary of that would have been in 2008, but nothing from that year celebrates its anniversary, and that's a hugely iconic set. Pretty much every year is the 20th, 25th, 30th anniversary of something.

This topic has been pretty well covered, but I'm with David on this one. I also can't help but wonder where the "special anniversary release" idea comes from, beyond simply being wishful thinking and a pipe dream. Where is the precedent? Yeah, I like the idea, but I'm not aware of this routinely happening with other themes, if at all.

You know what, you have me there--this could indeed be wishful thinking on my part. I got overexcited. And I should clarify, I'm not thinking that there's going to be anything like a re-release of classic sets--the major structural elements and colors of the classic Pirate sets have changed significantly since the last re-release. But here are the pipes down which my dream travels:

#1: Precedence--The 2009 Pirates were released in the 20th anniversary year. I don't think that was a coincidence. And while this may be a coincidence, Castle had a pretty sizable wave of sets in 2008. (All that said, good point about every year being an anniversary for something--I just realized 2018 is the 20th anniversary of Adventurers, and I doubt that Johnny Thunder will make a comeback that year. Although that would be awesome, just saying.)

#2: Timing--It's pretty clear by now that Pirates are a once-every-couple-of-years kind of deal. By 2019 there won't have been anything in about four years, so it seems likely they'd be thinking about it anyway.

#3: Importance as a Theme--Again, Pirates isn't out very often, compared to Castle and Space, which get pretty regular releases. So it makes sense to take full advantage of a return by tying it in with another event like the anniversary. Also, Pirates isn't just an awesome theme; it's the first theme of the "modern" era of LEGO. With Pirates came specially printed minifigures, the first attempt at a cross-media storyline, more new elements than in any release in years, an attempt at creating characters, etc., etc. So it's special. (Admittedly, I am biased. )

#4: Self-Fulfilling Prophecy: Even if I'm completely wrong on all of the above counts, it's just remotely possible that a LEGO Ambassador or someone will read this thread and go "Hey, the 30th anniversary of Pirates is coming up! We've got to do something cool--that's a great idea!"

TC

[Aanchir]

Much can be said for the latter, but compare the Black Seas Barracuda with the Brick Bounty.... or compare the Eldorado Fortress with the 6242 fort.... yeah I'd say the classics actually were "all that great". (Maybe not filled to the brim with pre-defined play features, but did we really need those when we were kids?)

There's quite big price differences between those sets you name, though. BSB in 1989 cost $110, the equivalent of $214 in 2015 dollars — more than twice what The Brick Bounty cost. In terms of price in real value rather than just sticker price, The Brick Bounty is more comparable with Caribbean Clipper, which cost $54 in 1989, would've cost $105 in 2015 dollars… and I think it's easy to say which of those two sets offers the superior building and play experience.

Likewise, Eldorado Fortress cost $66 in 1989, the equivalent of $114 in 2009 dollars — nearly three times what 6242 Soldier's Fort cost! 6242 is closer in price to 6267 Lagoon Lock-Up, which cost $29 in 1991 dollars or around $46 in 2009 dollars. Now, which of those sets really offers the better value?

Obviously, it's quite normal for bigger and more expensive sets to be more fondly remembered than their smaller and less expensive counterparts. That's why M:Tron is remembered for the Mega Core Magnetizer rather than the Particle Ionizer, for example. But it's sometimes hard to tell how well these sets actually sold compared to their smaller and less impressive counterparts. The monorail sets were huge and expensive even by today's standards, and old-school AFOLs continue to beg LEGO to bring monorail sets back, but LEGO lost money on every single one of them. Considering that no Pirates set has ever had a higher dollar value than the Black Seas Barracuda, not even the Imperial Flagship, isn't it worth considering that just maybe a pirate ship as big and expensive as BSB was — and still is — beyond the means of most buyers?

Of course, it can be argued that if a set the size of BSB came out today, it'd be much cheaper. At $180 (around $203 in today's money), Imperial Flagship remains the biggest historical pirate ship set. Moreover, At $120 (around $130 today), Queen Anne's Revenge still managed to be close to the same size and level of detail as BSB. So if LEGO were to release, say, a $150 pirate ship today, then sure, I could believe it might be able to surpass the BSB. But that's still roughly one and a half times what the Brick Bounty cost, and there's no telling whether a retail, non-licensed pirate ship released today could hope to turn a profit at those prices. There's never even been a Ninjago set that expensive that wasn't D2C! All in all, I don't think it's fair to expect modern Pirates sets to measure up to substantially more expensive classic sets.

As for the will-LEGO-bring-Pirates-back-for-its-anniversary question, I think what LEGO thinks the market is ready for takes priority over whether it's a significant year from a historical standpoint. LEGO has gone to great lengths to celebrate the anniversary of the company as a whole and of the brick, but not so much the anniversaries of specific themes. However, if the Pirates theme came back in 2019 anyway, or came back before 2019 and continued into that year, I could see LEGO celebrating its anniversary in some way at that time.

[x105Black]

Of course, it can be argued that if a set the size of BSB came out today, it'd be much cheaper. At $180 (around $203 in today's money), Imperial Flagship remains the biggest historical pirate ship set. Moreover, At $120 (around $130 today), Queen Anne's Revenge still managed to be close to the same size and level of detail as BSB. So if LEGO were to release, say, a $150 pirate ship today, then sure, I could believe it might be able to surpass the BSB. But that's still roughly one and a half times what the Brick Bounty cost, and there's no telling whether a retail, non-licensed pirate ship released today could hope to turn a profit at those prices. There's never even been a Ninjago set that expensive that wasn't D2C! All in all, I don't think it's fair to expect modern Pirates sets to measure up to substantially more expensive classic sets.

I believe a $150 Pirate ship set could be very viable, if done well.

[Aanchir]

I believe a $150 Pirate ship set could be very viable, if done well.

I'd like to hope so! But I don't know if the current state of things really supports that. Already it's "conventional wisdom" that LEGO is getting way too expensive, even though for the most part the actual value in bricks (by piece count or by weight) has simply kept pace with or outpaced inflation. LEGO City, Star Wars, and Technic are basically the only current themes that have proven they can still support normal retail sets at a $150 or higher price point. All other $150+ sets tend to be D2C sets like the Imperial Flagship.

Friends is the next non-licensed theme that I'd expect to grow to those higher price points — its biggest set so far has been the Heartlake Grand Hotel at $130/1552 pieces, which was one of last year's top selling sets. If it retires next year, we may see another set as expensive or more so to take its place. Most other LEGO themes tend to peak at $120 or $100, if not lower. If Pirates can't achieve lasting success with today's kids at those kinds of lower price points, it's hard to imagine it suddenly achieving that kind of success at higher ones.

[Captain Pirate Man]

How awesome would a blue coat IFS for 30th anniversary be?

[Staslegomaster]

Hi, as I"ve written before, I asked TLG if they'll celebrate 30 years of classic pirates. They replied today they recieve lots of cimilar questions and are already working on exclusive sets to mark the milestone in LEGO history. A design needs 1,5-2 years. Maybe earlier. But they can't say any detailes. As aLEGO House set appeared before the real house.

[azog]

How awesome would a blue coat IFS for 30th anniversary be?

If lego does that I would die of a heart attack because of happiness!

[Captain Pirate Man]

If lego does that I would die of a heart attack because of happiness!

We can dream right?

[Itaria No Shintaku]

Hello. I have over the past year realised that the LEGO pirate sets are getting worse. And by that i mean less minifigures and a smaller part count. But the prices are as always progressing to higher levels. Am I the only one who holds this opinion or do some other LEGO pirate fans see this as well.

Actually, this is false.

Minifigures are indeed less, but they are more detailed. And they cost Lego more than more minifigures but less detailed.

Price is decreasing, if you consider inflation rates.

Pieces are more in number if you consider that the ship, Brick Bounty, had 150 pieces more than the last one, The Brickbeard's bounty. They are less thatn the Black Seas Barracuda, but they are half cheaper.

Some examples

1989's Black Seas Barracuda $110 retail price. Today it would be $213,48 ( source: http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ )

For 870 parts this means 0,25$ per part.

2009's The Brickbeard's Bounty $99 retail price. Today it would be $111,05

For 554 parts this means 0,20$ per part.

2015's The Brick Bounty $99 retail price. Today it would be $100,52.

For 709 parts this means 0,14$ per part.

Overall,, considering the pirate ship as the perfect example for each of Pirates I, II, and III we could see how price per part dropped down drastically as the last one costed nearly half the first one.

Also, colors are more and more useful today than what it was before.

Black Seas Barracusa had very few colours (red, yellow, black, white, dark gray, light gray, brown) while the last ship has a bigger piece/color variety.

I am fairly happy with the last Pirate theme we got, my only disappointment is that it lasted only one wave.