Secret Enemies - Day Seven

[Tariq j]

Anne being the godfather would make a lot of sense since the win condition of the scum team requires the GF, and confirming the GF as town is a perfect way to get the GF to contact the scum team. But this relies on the logic that Joshua is scum an that Ralph is town... Ralph has been very scummy this game, I'm finding it hard to believe he's town.

We we kill Scott, even if he did turn out to be scum he was never in government and it would accomplish nothing long term. I'm actually intrigued as to why you picked him, we've had 3 players in the spotlight who could be scum and you've gone an picked an inactive player, it doesn't make much sense. Other than the fact you're trying to stop a scum buddie from being killed.

[Actor Builder]

Point A:

Well, [Ralph] did today just tell us we should kill him. I have no idea what he's doing anymore.

Point 2:

Would a godfather say "just kill me"? Probably not.

Fair points, both of them. However, they contradict and that confuses me.

Point 1 talks about me, and Point B talks about Anne. One thing you think is bad for me, you think is good for Anne.

That's weird. Just like you. You're weird.

The post above is in response to the points made by Joshua/Peanuts/Scumbag Supreme.

[Dragonfire]

Anne being the godfather would make a lot of sense since the win condition of the scum team requires the GF, and confirming the GF as town is a perfect way to get the GF to contact the scum team. But this relies on the logic that Joshua is scum an that Ralph is town... Ralph has been very scummy this game, I'm finding it hard to believe he's town.

The problem is that if we kill Ralph and he turns up town, sure, we've got two confirmed scum, but we don't have anyone we can trust as town and we've lost one of our own. That's why I'm advocating killing Anne, because even if she does turn up town, we'll have one confirmed townie, which is better than the alternative worst-case scenario of Ralph being town.

On the flipside, Ralph's behaviour is definitely not Godfather behaviour, as he asked us to kill him and has been acting over-the-top scummy. Since the scum will instantly lose when the Godfather dies, it is almost impossible that he is the Godfather at this point. If one of Ralph, Anne and Joshua IS the Godfather, then it's likely they are already in contact with the remainder of the scum team, and I can't imagine a scumteam advising Ralph to do anything like this. Anne on the other hand would make a very plausible Godfather, and is (somewhat pragmatically) lying fairly low and making the occasional slightly helpful comment - this seems more like someone who is taking the advice of teammates on board.

Lindsey, you'd better get in here and change your kill choice, we're already trusting you less and less as the hours slip by....

[Actor Builder]

If blood must be spilt tonight, I volunteer Ishmael as a sacrifice, and consequently a small meal.

[fhomess]

I agree we need to start using our ability to vote down governments. But having two people cleared is so much better than having one cleared. It also doubles the chances that we get a mayor who will not drop a town policy, and we will have two candidates TCC. We need any trustworthy person we can get.

It's much too late to use down voting as a means to figure out who's on which team. We're at the point now where we need to vote in the people we most trust. We should've been down voting governments at the beginning, just for the sake of seeing who nominated who and delaying the process. As it is, we don't have a record of who chose who to look back on.

Between Christina, Michael and you one has dropped a town policy. I suppose usually that would be a risky thing to do for a godfather, especially with nothing to gain, as for you and Michael. Would a godfather drop a town card so they can pass two scum cards on? It puts them on the line, but if they feel it's necessary to win? If it was Christina, I guess she doesn't know who is scum, but she should reckon between Ralph and me, with two others who could have dropped the town card, she would at least not get killed for it.

Why are you completely ignoring the possibility that Lindsey could've discarded a town policy? There are four people other than you and Ralph who had an opportunity to do so, but you're focused on just three of them.

Also, how is it any different for a godfather to discard a town policy than any other scum? There isn't any way to definitively confirm who dropped them. Of course they would drop a town policy to pass along two scum policies. If they don't know the alignment of their TCC, they'll want to doubly make sure the scum policy gets passed. Heck, it's entirely possible that Patricia is scum and just hasn't had a choice in what she passed.

Robert is simple: I am a town mayor, I accidentally pick the godfather as TCC. I get three scum cards, he gets two. No choice here. Not even that much bad luck, because I can testify he got wto scum cards.

All this is saying is that it's possible he's the GF, but what we're looking for is a reason to think one player is more likely to be GF than another. There's no reason to think Robert is GF over anyone else... unless you are scum and chose him deliberately. But in that case, I'd think you'd still pick a teammate as TCC, ensure a mafia policy gets passed, then try to clear the GF for later election.

Well, he did today just tell us we should kill him. I have no idea what he's doing anymore.

I don't see any reason to take that comment more seriously than his fish comment. It's WIFOM of the highest accord. If he's regular scum, he'd certainly prefer to be killed over the real GF.

Well, if he's the godfather he cannot have gotten a town investigation on anyone other than me, he wouldn't want to claim I'm scum if it might be true. So either he found the scum and they told him I'm town, or he found me town.

This is a bit confusing but I think I get what you're saying. Assuming you're town, he either investigated you and lied about the result or found a scum teammate and then made up the story about you. In Secret Hitler, it would have been impossible for the former to happen since the investigation target is public to all parties, so I hope that our host isn't allowing him to lie about who he investigated, just the result.

I used to think Robert would have set him up by telling him to investigate me, but as he was the first to point of how scummy Ralph voting down today's government (which, in retrospect, might have been a good thing), I guess I was wrong. So maybe he actually followed Robert's advise to investigate me hoping I'm scum, and found me town. So he can't say that I'm town, or else he will double-confirm Anne. Also, people were suspicious of his behavior before, and then he passed a scum policy, so maybe he thought people wouldn't believe him that three scum cards were drawn twice in a rown, so he had to claim scum on me. Or he is just a random mafia member. If this was a mafia game, I would wonder if he is the jester. His behavior has been so erratic he could be anything.

Why did you think Robert was scum with Ralph? Because he asked you to be investigated?

If you kill Anne, Ralph is also safe to claim to. If I was scum, wouldn't Anne be the godfather already? Isn't that the whole reason you want to kill her? So, you kill Anne, Ralph is alive, and me. One confirmed town. As you said, we have limited control over the mayors, and only one person who can be fully trusted. Even if I'm TCC on one day, there will be another on the next day. We might choose one of Christina, Michael, Robert and you. Maybe not Robert, while he has been "active and helpful", given the set-up of the game, it's nothing scum can't fake, as there's little direct scum-hunting. The others being godfather hinges on them doing something that would be contrarian to their goal of appearing townie, so I guess they could be good choices.

I don't think there's much getting around the notion that one of you or Ralph is scum and killing Anne will let the GF claim to the one who's revealed as scum.

If we kill Ralph and he's town, we've got two confirmed scum the GF can claim to. We have no confirmed townies.

If we kill Anne and she's town, we've got one confirmed scum the GF can claim to. We have one confirmed townie, you.

There's not one bit of difference between the two for scum, but a world of difference for town. Oh look, here comes Robert saying just that...

The problem is that if we kill Ralph and he turns up town, sure, we've got two confirmed scum, but we don't have anyone we can trust as town and we've lost one of our own. That's why I'm advocating killing Anne, because even if she does turn up town, we'll have one confirmed townie, which is better than the alternative worst-case scenario of Ralph being town.

There you go!

On the flipside, Ralph's behaviour is definitely not Godfather behaviour, as he asked us to kill him and has been acting over-the-top scummy. Since the scum will instantly lose when the Godfather dies, it is almost impossible that he is the Godfather at this point. If one of Ralph, Anne and Joshua IS the Godfather, then it's likely they are already in contact with the remainder of the scum team, and I can't imagine a scumteam advising Ralph to do anything like this. Anne on the other hand would make a very plausible Godfather, and is (somewhat pragmatically) lying fairly low and making the occasional slightly helpful comment - this seems more like someone who is taking the advice of teammates on board.

Anne is plenty capable of handling herself without the advice of teammates.

If Anne is killed and comes up town, we kill Ralph next. His crazyness could just be to throw everyone off. Except...

Lindsey, you'd better get in here and change your kill choice, we're already trusting you less and less as the hours slip by....

I don't think Lindsey has any intention of changing her selection. We won't have a chance to crosscheck the kills in any meaningful way.

Ishmael for dinner! Woot!

[Khscarymovie4]

Is it to late to change? If it's not then I choose to kill Anne. I have looked at more recent post, and it seems the town did not like the my first decision. I also think what Robert said about having at least one confirmed townie is a good would be good for the town.

[mediumsnowman]

See ya guys. Hopefully the town will pull things together after I'm gone. Good luck!

Joshua is a good guy, don't trust Ralph...

[Actor Builder]

To Anne, Whenever She May Trust Me

Anne,

Anne Anne Anne.

My love for Anne has never diminished,

through mafias, trials, and large angry hordes.

Until the end, when all this is finished,

I say unto Anne, "Cross ye the fjords."

Cross with impunity, immunity too.

Cross with salvation, resignation askew.

All of these phrases,

though in sensibility lacking,

these uttered in graces,

are found finer than fracking.

Fracking for oil?

Nay, Fracking for Anne.

Anne who's turmoil

shall better "The Man".

"The Man", as in us,

a collective event.

So before comes the bus,

let us for Anne lament.

Anne, I love you. We love you. Ishmael loves you.

[mediumsnowman]

That... that... was something else.

[Peanuts]

Why are you completely ignoring the possibility that Lindsey could've discarded a town policy? There are four people other than you and Ralph who had an opportunity to do so, but you're focused on just three of them.

Also, how is it any different for a godfather to discard a town policy than any other scum? There isn't any way to definitively confirm who dropped them. Of course they would drop a town policy to pass along two scum policies. If they don't know the alignment of their TCC, they'll want to doubly make sure the scum policy gets passed. Heck, it's entirely possible that Patricia is scum and just hasn't had a choice in what she passed.

I don't see why Patricia couldn't be scum. I never said she can't. It's true, it could have been Lindsey. I must have ignored her because it seemed implausible that she would draw three town policies, but it's not, as we know she drew two at least. The question is, would it make sense for a scum member to drop a town policy if the other two are not both scum policies. The scum will try to discard town cards in order to pass scum policies; so it would be beneficial to mess up the count in a way that makes the town think there are more scum policies in the deck than really exist, not fewer. I mean, I definitely don't trust Lindsey, she passed a scum policy today and tried to kill Scott before being pressured into changing her opinion. Even I agree Scott is a worse target than Anne, and I know she is town. But I just can't explain why she would drop a town policy on Day 4, potentially making it harder for her team to pass a scum policy later on.

Changing the count always puts some pressure on the person who does it, especially in the first deck. it will come out at some point, and why risk the extra pressure? The entire point of the godfather is to lie low. Same goes for dropping a town policy in order to pass a scum policy, but it has an immediate gain for the godfather. Also, I don't know how much the scum can afford to waste their chances. By day six it was 3:2 for us, so I guess Christina should have felt the pressure to drop a town policy even as godfather.

All this is saying is that it's possible he's the GF, but what we're looking for is a reason to think one player is more likely to be GF than another. There's no reason to think Robert is GF over anyone else... unless you are scum and chose him deliberately. But in that case, I'd think you'd still pick a teammate as TCC, ensure a mafia policy gets passed, then try to clear the GF for later election.

But why is Robert less likely to be godfather than Scott? Just because he was more active in thread and didn't sleep away the days? I read his posts with a slight tunnelvision on him being a teammate of Ralph, and I don't think he said anything that a scum member couldn't fake.

Why did you think Robert was scum with Ralph? Because he asked you to be investigated?

He was the one who proposed investigating me, and he was the one who most vocally proposed not voting Anne into government anymore. Both these things help the scum a lot. But I suppose he's not a teammate of Ralph, unless they have given up on him.

I don't think there's much getting around the notion that one of you or Ralph is scum and killing Anne will let the GF claim to the one who's revealed as scum.

If we kill Ralph and he's town, we've got two confirmed scum the GF can claim to. We have no confirmed townies.

If we kill Anne and she's town, we've got one confirmed scum the GF can claim to. We have one confirmed townie, you.

There's not one bit of difference between the two for scum, but a world of difference for town. Oh look, here comes Robert saying just that...

There is in that if Anne was the godfather, she would have taken up contact already. Also, those are the worst case scenarios for both these decisions. Killing Anne offers the better worst case and the better best case (she is GF, town wins), but in the middle ground, killing Ralph yields the higher pay-off. But I guess Lindsey has made her call, and she's not gonna change. If she's town, she should follow the majority; if she's scum, she should kill Anne

See ya guys. Hopefully the town will pull things together after I'm gone. Good luck!

Joshua is a good guy, don't trust Ralph...

You will be missed

[Dragonfire]

Is it to late to change? If it's not then I choose to kill Anne. I have looked at more recent post, and it seems the town did not like the my first decision. I also think what Robert said about having at least one confirmed townie is a good would be good for the town

Thanks goodness. You haven't alleviated my suspicion of you, but at least you're following the general consensus of killing Anne.

See ya guys. Hopefully the town will pull things together after I'm gone. Good luck!

Joshua is a good guy, don't trust Ralph...

Sorry if you're town, we'll win this for you if so.

Bob, since you will be giving us Anne's alignment after the kill, could you please reveal Betsy's alignment?

[Tariq j]

The problem is that if we kill Ralph and he turns up town, sure, we've got two confirmed scum, but we don't have anyone we can trust as town and we've lost one of our own. That's why I'm advocating killing Anne, because even if she does turn up town, we'll have one confirmed townie, which is better than the alternative worst-case scenario of Ralph being town.

True, and I suppose since the scum only need the GF to become TCC to win, ideally we would want a confirmed townie as TCC tomorrow as oppose to someone who may be the GF (which at this point is almost anyone)

[Bob]

Bob, since you will be giving us Anne's alignment after the kill, could you please reveal Betsy's alignment?

Betsy was a member of the town.

~~~

The townspeople stood and looked at the new mafia policy that had been passed.

"That means we get to kill somebody." Lindsey said.

"I pick Anne!"

"Use a gun!" someone shouted

"Use a sword!" another said.

"Break out the guillotine!" a third person yelled.

"Whoa there!" Bob said, stepping in. "I said nobody would be killed."

"But you also said that the mayor gets to kill someone. Are you some kind of liar?!"

"No, no. Anne will be taken out of the game. Watch this."

Suddenly, Anne vanished without a trace.

"Unfortunately, she was a member of the town."

~~~

Day Eight will be up soon!

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