What Exactly is Minifig Scale?

[MAB]

41 minutes ago, lego the hutt said:

That's ok for your personal builds, but in a conversation about scale in general, you have to stick with the industry standard.  Enough people struggle with this already it seems without muddying the waters further.

There is no industry standard. LEGO uses a range of different scales.  What is important is that minifigures can fit through doors, fit in care, see through windows, etc.

[Ron Dayes]

Ok, this will be my last real effort to really explain what a Minifig scale is and how you do it!

1. What is a scale? (sorry, but some seem to not understand how a scale is defined)
originates from the word "scala", used since ancient times, meaning: ladder/stairs, which were often mathmatically defined. So from "how many stairs", similar to other measurements units you could base a "scale" on how tall something is. Thats how the verb "to escalade" originated! Nowadays its one "height" divided by another "height" giving you a ratio. Thats it!
Its not based on your own perception, playability, functionality, does it look realistic to me etc. - its based on math and math alone!
You can actually base a scale on whatever you think is right, but read below why its usually height irl...

2 Why schould a scale always be HEIGHT based?
Remember when you were a kid and measured your own body height like every week with a pencil on the door frame? Why is that? Well, humans self awareness and the perception of other individuals is based on height - because humans are naturally longer than they are wide/thick - so height is our dominant feature. You are rather afraid of a tall person as a kid, than a person same height but more pounds. Its somewhat a genetic instinct that we calculate our risks (=environment) by how tall the other or environment (mountain,...)is.
It is our perception of our own height compared to an object that lets us define things after we experienced them:
example: catching a fish, common instinct is how long it is, you measure = how does its height compare to my own, ok, that fish is small or huge! Statement! Weighing the fish is your second thought, cause it gives you a second info to add to the info you allready got by measuring it = completing your experience of what you caught).

That also results to why a lot of things in the real world are primarily height based and then normed to a certain height, like the calculations of door frames, ceiling heights, tables etc..It simply is the way we understand the world, even if we dont really think about math or scaling at that moment, our brain automatically does it for us ;-)

3. How do you scale Lego with a Minifig?
Since i mentioned that we experience the world by height, and that professional scaling in industry/construction is also focused on height (building a tower, first you estimate height, and after that comes the diameter analysis to support the structure) - it should be a natural thing to use height. Obviously.
Now the issue: The Lego Minifig isnt naturally proportioned - bummer, no secret!
So now we choose:

• Do you use the height of the minifig or its width?. If you want your minifig world to be as close to your own perception of the world, you definately use height!
• The only reason why somebody would choose width is to have great function and playability in their MOCs .But apart from that, the results are all unrealistic by our own perception. This literally leads to this discussion all the time, and then the term MINIFIG SCALE is used and debated!!!

So there is actually 2 possible scales we can dwell on.
But be honest to yourself - the WIDTH is a secondary instinct to humans. It just happens that when it comes to LEGO, we have been so focused over the years to fit a minifig inside a car, that we just assumed that its width is "OK" and the norm, even I as a kid didnt question this AT ALL.
Yet, it results to a problem chain, that literally everything would need to be adjusted towards that. Everything starts to get huge, way too "tall" for the fig. Now if you are a "playsensitive" Afol, with functionality as a goal, this is definately an option. But lets look at what TLG actually intended to be Minifig scale, using standard parts they NORMED for us

scale proof by Ron Dayes, auf Flickr

aha, id say its very close to 1/43! Those moulds really define the scale, especially the door frame sizes and the bicycle mould!

Further overview of both scales:

no 5 /13 by Ron Dayes, auf Flickr

[TeriXeri]

5 hours ago, lego the hutt said:

That's ok for your personal builds, but in a conversation about scale in general, you have to stick with the industry standard.  Enough people struggle with this already it seems without muddying the waters further.

There's no industry standard for scale in LEGO sets, it changes all the time ,and varies heavily per theme and even sets within the same theme.

Official sets (intended for minifigs, most with minifigs included) just are defined by parts use, parts count, and target theme/age ranges.

We get anywhere from 4-8+ wide vehicles intended for minifigs each year, and the larger vehicles aren't all trucks/vans.

2020 Speed Champions having an 8-stud wide car model set (based on a real-life car) on a new chassis part,  but nowhere near "realistic" scale to a minifig, it's purely that wide for the purpose to seat 4 minifigures.

I'm talking sets here.

I'm not speaking about predefined parts like doorframes, horses and bicyles, because those are pretty much defined by the mould and cannot be modified.

Edited October 2, 2019 by TeriXeri

[lego the hutt]

This is why I commented earlier that figure/statue collectors generally have a better grasp of scale than the Lego community does. 

As much as it is discussed in the Lego community, because Lego isn't designed to scale, there is always a lot of confusion.  

While scale is discussed often in the action figure community, even Hasbro 3 3/4 and 6 inch figures are made only loosely to scale.  It isn't until you get into the higher end collectibles like hot toys and sideshow that scale is more accurate.  Though, compared to Lego, they are all more precise.

The industry standard (the toy industry) is that scale is based on a person 6 feet tall when scale isnt exactly defined as a ratio.  Not the average person height by country or whatever was stated earlier hah.

All this is just talking around the subject though. 

The important thing in all of these Lego scale discussions that have been had over the years is that, in the end, people understand that there is a difference between system scale and minifig scale.

 

[BrickG]

I actually know the proper answer here. 100%. Completely true.

It's witnessed in the LEGO Movie 2 when they drive into Emett's house. Everything is bigger on the inside. It's like Doctor Who.

We just need to find a way to build sets in such a way that the dimensional area within it is larger than the area outside of it. It's that simple. That way you can have minifigures that fit inside things that they normally woudln't be able to.

 

Now that I've revealed the truth I think we can all agree that this discussion is just plain over. It's done and dusted. It's solved. It's like when they discovered the number zero. It's just the default now. No need to ever mention that there wasn't a number zero for a while there. Lets just start building LEGO mocs with bigger insides.

You're welcome.

[MAB]

27 minutes ago, BrickG said:

 

It's witnessed in the LEGO Movie 2 when they drive into Emett's house. Everything is bigger on the inside. It's like Doctor Who.

We just need to find a way to build sets in such a way that the dimensional area within it is larger than the area outside of it. It's that simple.

 

This is already done in many official sets and MOCs. Sets that are open backed or hinged often have an implied play area significantly larger than the actual build.

So for example, the play area of this set is far bigger than the size of the wall and door frame would otherwise suggest.

 

 

[Ron Dayes]

6 hours ago, lego the hutt said:

The important thing in all of these Lego scale discussions that have been had over the years is that, in the end, people understand that there is a difference between system scale and minifig scale.

 

Well, the Minifig actually fits in the system scale. Literally, the system scale IS the real minifig scale mathmatically speaking.

People who build larger than that shouldnt use the word "minfig scale" to be honest.

A proper term would be "minifig play size".... (since there is no real math behind it, scale = math).
That term allows all those variations size wise, witdth wise etc.

[lego the hutt]

It's not about justifying that they are the same.  It's understanding the difference.  

[Ron Dayes]

53 minutes ago, lego the hutt said:

It's not about justifying that they are the same.  It's understanding the difference.  

so whats the difference? And what in seven hells is that "system scale" supposed to be. There is no exact definition - shall it refer to minifig usage? what does the "system" stand for?

There is no real "system scale", with bricks you can build in any scale! Large, mini, micro - whatever. There is so many shapes of bricks, you cant define them to a certain scale
To be precise you should just call them the scales they are ( 1/10, 1/25 etc)

Only exception: TLG made a few moulds for minifigs to be used with minifigs. Once you use these parts, you are automatically working with elements of the "minifig scale" they intended for us. (just look at the bicycle moulds etc)
Minifig scale is officially a height based scale. You can alter it by making it width based, but then most parts TLG moulded for us dont make sense anymore, concerning the math behind it.

If you stray away from math, and build using what you "think" is right, thats not "scaling" at all!
Scaling is always based objects that exists and contain mathmatical data. If you build a fantasy spaceship from your own imagination, you set your own parameters.
Thats a size you defined yourself.
Now if i were to rebuild that spaceship half the size, then that would be a 1/2 scale of your object, which now exists for me to be scaled down using math. See the difference?

What most Moccers do is build a car that fits minifigs, check a bit if it looks like its real life counterpart and call it minifig scale.
Some say "a fig fits in" so its "minifig scale".
But thats NOT how a scale works! A scale is a defined term - most Car mocs i see arent in scale at all to their real life counterparts.

Thats why its better to call it "minifig sized", since its design originated from their own perception of an object. Its not a scale.

Its a Term definition thing. People just tend to use the term "scale" wrong since it is commonly used amongst AFOLS (which doesnt justify its use btw!). Instead they should use "size" to describe their mocs.
 

[icm]

Ok, so if all you object to in "system scale" is the word "scale", can you please stop insisting everybody stop using that word?  The purpose of language is to describe things such that everyone knows what is being described.  Regardless of pedantic disputes over how to parse the word "scale" here, everyone knows what "system scale" means: built for play with minifigs.  Can we move on?

To summarize everything that has been said in this thread:

1) Minifigs have weird proportions.

2) Building to a mathematical scale means picking one aspect of a minifig as a reference and pegging that to some real world size.

3) Some specialized parts designed for minifigs suggest a height-based scale of about 1:43, if a minifig is six feet tall.

4) Some set designers have spoken of using scales closer to 1:50.

5) Some fan builders use different height, width, and length scales.

6) Other fan builders use scales that "average" the minifig proportions in some sense.  For example, my 1 stud = 1 foot scale is about 1:39.

7) There is no single scale in sets, but a range of scales and sizes depending on the subject and goals for the play experience and building experience.  Sets designed for minifig interaction use a variety of scales.

8) Sets and builds designed for minifig interaction without being built to a scale factor in the range of numbers reasonably derived from a minifig are "system scale" or "play scale."

9) That may not be a correct use of the word scale from some perspectives, but language is a flexible thing.  If enough people use "scale" this way, then it's a perfectly valid sense of the word.

Edited October 3, 2019 by icm

[lego the hutt]

@Ron Dayes

It's not about what "you build".  System scale sized sets are defined by TLG.  As a builder you can try to imitate that and refer to it as system scale but without TLG designing "system scale" sets, system scale wouldn't be a thing.

It really shouldn't be so difficult to understand but every few years on various forums there seem to be people who struggle with the difference between system scale and minifig scale. 

It isn't an exact science so I guess some grey area is understandable but you would think after rehashing the same discussion over and over for years the confusion would taper off.  

Maybe that is a good sign for TLG? It might show that there are still new people entering the hobby that haven't participated in this type of discussion a dozen times in the past.

Edited October 4, 2019 by lego the hutt

[MAB]

9 hours ago, lego the hutt said:

@Ron Dayes

It's not about what "you build".  System scale sized sets are defined by TLG.  As a builder you can try to imitate that and refer to it as system scale but without TLG designing "system scale" sets, system scale wouldn't be a thing.

It really shouldn't be so difficult to understand but every few years on various forums there seem to be people who struggle with the difference between system scale and minifig scale. 

It isn't an exact science so I guess some grey area is understandable but you would think after rehashing the same discussion over and over for years the confusion would taper off.  

Maybe that is a good sign for TLG? It might show that there are still new people entering the hobby that haven't participated in this type of discussion a dozen times in the past.

To be able to define a difference between system scale and minifigure scale, both scales need to be defined. Neither are. I cannot recall seeing the words "system scale" in LEGO instructions or boxes, or LEGO defining what is meant be system scale. They use many different sizes for cars, buildings and so on in their sets. Which of them is system scale?

The reason it is difficult to understand what people mean by system scale and minifigure scale is because neither are unambiguously defined.

[lego the hutt]

Please go read discussions on the subject that have been had many multiple times before to get caught up.  The terms are not interchangeable.

You just have to have an understanding that system and minifig scale are not the same.  Minifig is the larger scale. 

Again, it is not an exact science.  No one is going to supply a 1/X scale.  It is about having an understanding without requiring an exact, mathematical, definition.

I'm not here to teach all the newcomers to the hobby about the difference and this conversation is spinning its wheels.  I'll leave it to you all to do the research for yourselves.

[MAB]

51 minutes ago, lego the hutt said:

Please go read discussions on the subject that have been had many multiple times before to get caught up.  The terms are not interchangeable.

You just have to have an understanding that system and minifig scale are not the same.  Minifig is the larger scale. 

Again, it is not an exact science.  No one is going to supply a 1/X scale.  It is about having an understanding without requiring an exact, mathematical, definition.

I'm not here to teach all the newcomers to the hobby about the difference and this conversation is spinning its wheels.  I'll leave it to you all to do the research for yourselves.

I have been in the lego community long enough to know both terms are used interchangeably, and also that neither has an exact definition.