Porsche Pricing & Availability

[DrJB]

I'll add this, given that the OP might not be getting the answers he's after. In my opinion, the way TLG calculates prices is not necessarily fair (yet to be defined) / based on ppp / or else. The best example I can think of are 9398 vs. 41999. The parts count (and production price) was clearly more for the 41999, the box material as well. Granted, maybe less development for the under-chassis part, but in the end, those of us who bought both sure felt 41999 was a much better value. Now, did TLG give freebies to everyone with 41999 by adding silver pieces, and 2 PF components? Not at all. I'm a firm believer that TLG as a corporation is in this business to make $$$. Plain and simple. It just so happens that we all are guilty of wanting their product. Does the PPP or any metric hold water for the two vehicles? Not at all. What is it then? It could be that, like others have said, TLG knows how exclusive this set is, and they're trying to get as much return on their investment. Is that bad? Only time will tell, but every corporation plays by the same rules.

No, I do not like the price! But I know myself when I'm at a lego store: I'll find an excuse to buy it.

I'll close by one fact many of us might have overlooked. It appears this set is LARGER than all prior official cars, not just in terms of number of parts, but also in terms of actual dimensions. Maybe a picture of the Porsche next to the 8448 or 8880 will appease some of us and bring others 'to their senses'.

Edited April 27, 2016 by DrJB

[Tommy Styrvoky]

I'll close by one fact many of us might have overlooked. It appears this set is LARGER than all prior official cars, not just in terms of number of parts, but also in terms of actual dimensions. Maybe a picture of the Porsche next to the 8448 or 8880 will appease some of us and bring others 'to their senses'.

done.

Here's a size comparison with 8880, 8448, and 8070. I did my best to fix the perspective projection on the box with Gimp.

I'm not sure if this is 100% correct, but I scaled them by the pin holes.

Lego Supercars by Tommy Styrvoky, on Flickr

Edited April 27, 2016 by Tommy Styrvoky

[aol000xw]

You have good points, except the difference is $70, which is not almost 100 GBP, or whatever.

Arocs is 199.99€. If Porsche is 300€ that is 100€ not $70.

Perhaps the 229€ price of the Volvo could have had some weight when pricing the "Ultimate" Porsche. But I don't want to speculate because I end up thinking of pointy haired bosses and some gross expressions.

Edited April 27, 2016 by aol000xw

[DrJB]

Good Job!

I do have the bottom three and the proportions (all 3 with their backs against the wall) are consistent with what you have done here.

Assuming we got the Porsche dimensions correct, we can put this 'aspect' to bed then. Yes, the Porsche is the largest (or longest) supercar yet from TLG.

Lego Supercars by Tommy Styrvoky, on Flickr

Edited April 27, 2016 by DrJB

[Saberwing40k]

Arocs is 199.99€. If Porsche is 300€ that is 100€ not $70.

Yes,my bad. I forgot the Euros sign. So, somehow, the price differential between the sets is a lot higher in Europe? In the U.S. 42043 costs $230, and costs the same in Europe, but the Porsche costs $300 in the U.S. ,but somehow costs $330, or 300 euro in Europe? That's odd, that the Porsche costs more in their home region, as Germany is a much larger Technic market than the U.S., and none fo the other sets cost much more in Europe.

[Lipko]

Yup, that dollar-euro thing is the whole basis of this arguing. So, will it be 300 euros or 300 dollars? Or maybe both of them is true? Maybe it's the concept and it the prize will be 300 Hungarian Forints in Hungary...

[aol000xw]

I saw 250 pounds and 500 AUD too. Those both are over 300€

[Jonfensu]

We should consider that this set is the first of its kind, know as Technic Ultimate. The title could mislead someone, because it sound like the best of the best in terms of functions and complexity. It rather refers to a Collectable Set, like the SW UCS series; a set based on an iconic vehicle with a good looking bodywork and mechanical functions beside a cooperative development with the automotive company; a set aimed for AFOLs. And it comes for a price. That's it. If the car was a "generic" one, of course, the story would be different: lower price, less details, less pieces and simpler functions. Something like 8070. (Would we, AFOLs, be happy with another "generic"car? I don't think so)

That's why is hard to judge it using the PPP (even when the Porsche has a better valued than other sets as OP pointed) We don't have a proper basis to judge it with other sets a as Blakbird stated. So I think we should wait to the reviews and see if the price is justifiable . ( Will be awesome to see and read reviews from Sariel, Jim, Eric and Paul)

If we look it just for how is it, well, I think that the biggest problem of the Porsche is not the price. No. Sadly it comes late to party. These years, the MOCers and AFOLs have set the bar so high with many real supercars with many functions (that includes a sequential gearbox, realistic geometry, brakes etc) that makes the Porsche simple, even some have less pieces but has more functions,(Kudos here to Nathanael and his Predator Supercar). Another factor is the new pieces. And there are mixed feelings. In one hand , with exclusive pieces for the complex parts of the car, the price could be justified. In the other hand those pieces would be expensive and have few usability with the current ones; indeed a bad situation for MOCers (How many of you have used the wheel hubs of the 8880 in your MOCs?) So I think TLG made the correct decision realising just new wheels, arches and the curved panel

In few words. If you are a Lego collector, this set is for you. If you like building only MOCs, buy the new parts in BL and do whatever you want.

You may find some contradiction in my post, but that's how a see this set. I really like it, I understand why it's expensive, I really appreciate the detailed box and instructions beside the many hours behind the development (I work repairing pianos, and I know that feeling behind a complex work). But I can't afford it, and there are better donor-sets

[dr_spock]

It's $350 CAD in Canada. At current exchange rates, it is $277 USD or 245€. That's not including sales taxes. Best deal would be to buy in Alberta which has the lowest sales tax in the country for about $290USD with tax.

I think there are a lot non-AFOL Porsche fans who would buy it simply because it's Porsche. If it doesn't sell well, I may buy it when they discount it.

[DrJB]

You could always wait for deals on eBay. In the US, the Arocs sells for $230+tax, or roughly $250 (depending on which state you live in). Yet, there were few offers on eBay for $185, including shipping and no tax. This is usually target/Walmart liquidating overstock items. Hoping the same happens with the Porsche.

[Rijkvv]

I'll close by one fact many of us might have overlooked. It appears this set is LARGER than all prior official cars, not just in terms of number of parts, but also in terms of actual dimensions. Maybe a picture of the Porsche next to the 8448 or 8880 will appease some of us and bring others 'to their senses'.

Yes, the Porsche is bigger in every way. And as a fan of studded sets in general and especially 8880 I hate to admit it but the Porsche looks way better.

But €300,- (in the Netherlands to be €330,- thank you TLG NOT ) is a lot of money for a model that basically has no more functions than 8880. I'd be more impressed if they managed to make it work in the size of the previous supercars.

The premium packaging loses it's value to me if they still use the same old parts, as AllanP pointed out, and use stickers with the same lack of quality TLG uses these days (correct me if I'm wrong, but that's one of the issues why I'm sceptic about buying this "premium" set).

PPP may be actually good. But for me it's like a €30.000,- real Porsche: that may be very cheap for a Porsche, but it's a lot of money for a car that has the same functions as my Corolla.

[Askan]

You could always wait for deals on eBay. In the US, the Arocs sells for $230+tax, or roughly $250 (depending on which state you live in). Yet, there were few offers on eBay for $185, including shipping and no tax. This is usually target/Walmart liquidating overstock items. Hoping the same happens with the Porsche.

I doubt that the Porsche will have the same availability as the Arocs. Maybe it will just be sold at Lego shop and a few selected stores. That would make it less available on ebay.

[agrof]

In my opinion we have to separate things.

First: general (new) customers

Cars,supercars have wider audience in general. I am prety sure, when LEGO says "ultimate supercar", this is a call for non-LEGO, and for non-Technic people. Every detail is adjusted to this: the brand, the size, part count, packaging, etc... many people still believe, that LEGO=4x2 brick. Than bang, they get this in face, and say: wow, how cool is that, might be LEGO is not a children toy any more!

Look at the Internet, how viral is this thing. Had 9398, 42009 or 42043 such attention? It is enough, if only 1-5% of readers become potential buyer, each one extends the market, pure win for TLG.

There are hardcore classic LEGO fans, they will always neglect Technic... (their super power called: narrow minded mentality), BUT there are many of them, who does listening, and fall in love with 42056. Because it looks good, and oh yes, it does. Price is no issue.

Second: Technic AFOLs

We have different perspectives in terms of functions and authenticy, so we might miss more here. We have experience with more dense and more complex MOCs, so our bar is set higher.

And we are marginal.

We can discuss internally about what means "ultimate" for us, and if the pricing is OK accordingly. It is all about personal preference, there is no bad or good statement. While I am happy for this set (except the idiotic suitcase thing... Genders are bad, mmmkay? ), for me it is way too expensive, and 42043 stands for ultimate - to date. Some will instantly buy it, and this is life. None of us is a better or worse person because of this.

A poll would be interesting though.

To the ppp issue: TLG set part count as a measurement by showing on the packagings, so why not compare?

Edited April 27, 2016 by agrof

[Chade]

I saw 250 pounds and 500 AUD too. Those both are over 300€

I just saw this today on the Australian lego shop website. $500! It's out of my price range The Acros is $360, so $140 difference...

[Rijkvv]

(their super power called: narrow minded mentality)

That's not nice. Many different themes, many different fans. The fact someone doesn't like Technic doesn't mean he/she has a narrow minded mentality.

[agrof]

This was meant only in Lego universe, not in general, also as written: hardcore fans. How could I judge someone only by Lego theme interest? But a bit can do by the reflections (f.e.: comments).

I am not nice (not equal disrespectful), and maybe not better than those, but working on it.

Sorry for off Topic.

Edited April 27, 2016 by agrof

[februar88]

I see a lot of rationalization of people trying to justify the price tag, but little real arguments and even less backed up by numbers.

I think a good starting point to analyze its price is the Arocs.

• From a price perspective both models are quite close in number of parts and panels.
  
• The Arocs even have pricer parts than average like PF and pneumatic elements.
  
• Both models include new parts
  
• Difference in price is 100€, almost a 42039, on average 1000 parts.
  

You get a thick nice instruction book and some better packaging. for 100€

I can buy a really good Lego book, a Porsche one and some very nice plastic boxes for all the parts with 100€

Every now and then I accept to pay an unjustified premium as a reward for a company or product, just because I want them to succeed, but always within constrains that make sense. Overpricing just because you have a monopoly isn't something I celebrate.

You are wrong in a main point. Arocs new parts are underpriced. Deal with it.

I guess that you know that TLG spend tons of money for moulds. In Arocs we have new racks and v2 pneumatics.

Lets say, that moulds for Arocs racks and for Porshe rims costed 400 000 euro each one. But these racks they will use in different sets for ages - so they can take their money back in a future.

But with Porshe rims we have absolutely different case: these rims were designed only for this set. So if you want to take your investments back you have to rise the price. For instance if you plan to sell 20 000 boxes then you will ask more than 20 Euro per box from your customers. Only for rims.

And one more thing. I think, that TLG does not pay for licence more than 1$ (you can not make a contract between commercial companies for free) if we are talking about Mersedes, Volvo, Porshe. Of course they pay a lot for Marvel and WB. Because "Batman vs Superman" - is just intellectual property, but Porshe RS3 - first of all is beautiful car, and there are a lot of different other things in production total cost.

Price of Porshe's appearance (intellectual property) less then let's say 1% of cost of all of the RS3 cars which was produced and will be produced. Cost of intellectual property in total cost of "Batman vs Superman" is about 100%.

So, you will not pay 100 Euro for nice packaging and wonderfull book and licence for greedy Porshe AG. You will pay for beatiful Lego set.

sorry for wall of text.

Edited April 27, 2016 by februar88

[sergiuparaschiv]

*sigh* I have given up on my own thread. Some great responses here... really are, and I appreciate everyone's opinion, but last i checked (forgive me if I have missed anyone) no one, not a single response, has really targeted my question. Perhaps I am not very good at defining it.

This post was not intended to get everyone's opinion on pricing.... or whether or not they will be buying the set. I think we have enough of that on the regular Porsche thread. There simply are some inconsistencies between the outrage of the price of the set and, historically, what sets have cost. I pointed out one salient fact that no one is addressing. Understanding that PPP certainly has its flaws (believe me, I know it does) it still is a metric of cost of a set. The heavy lift crane doesn't have anything special in terms of pieces, so I can make the argument that it is comparable (I already pointed out that even w/o the PF functions.... the set is still higher PPP-wise, than the Porsche..... and the rotors are nothing special.... the cost of those can easily be subsumed by the rims and tires of the Porsche) to the Porsche... and it is MORE than the Porsche. So is 9396..... so is.... the Grand Prix Racer. Others, which..... true, have tons of PF functions, but if you get rid of 25, even 35% of the cost they are still more (according to PPP). The list goes on and on (which I already delineated). Just doesnt seem to be a lot of critical thinking going on here. Why aren't people using this in their decision making processes? People keep bringing up the comparison between the Porsche and the AROCS b/c it is similar in piece count. This is insufficient. Most on here have at least some statistical training.... and we all know that it is much better to look at a range of scores, rather than one, to make decisions about sets of numbers. Yes... I have only also provided a few examples.... but look at the whole set of numbers I gave..... the Porsche really is not the outlier that everyone says it is. An outlier from a range of scores, not the single numerical difference between two isolated scores, is the salient factor here.

But all is good. Again I love everyone's opinion.. ... good to hear from everyone. Honestly, I guess I have a little of an ulterior motive. My occupation involves researching people, their decisions, cognitive psychology, etc. and I see a pattern here that concerns me. I see potential (nothing definitive.... I could certainly be wrong ) of people making an emotional decision here based on a price tag.... which is fine. Some people simply can't afford the set. No problem. But some can but won't because of an emotional reaction to a certain number when, if they sit down and really look at some other information they will see past emotion and realize that perhaps the set is not that bad a value after all (maybe..... maybe it is )

Thanks again for all the responses... --- I may not respond much more to this post...... I think it has more or less ran its course. One wise poster has already pointed out that all the nay-sayers may be eating their words anyways when the reviews come out. How many responses do we get like that.... after a review from Jim or something..... perhaps that is the real thing to focus on here....

People are going to rationalize this based on perceived value. Different people take different things into account when deciding what the value of a thing is.

One of them is price, which is not a linear factor. Just to make things clear, we're talking about people that can afford this.

There's a certain low price bellow which a person considers the price is irrelevant to the decision making.

And there is a certain high price above which a person considers it to be more important than any other factor.

The other _very_ important factor is the fact that to most people this is a toy. A favorite pastime at most. For these people that upper limit is going to be related to what other toys in their lives cost.

Are you a gamer too? DOOM 4 is $60 and will give you at least 8 hours of fun, just like this set will.

How much fun was the AROCS? Depending on personal preference some might say this set is going to be less fun than that. Why would they then consider this price fair?

And yes, then there are the edge cases like collectors. For these people the higher the price the better.

Now imagine LEGO has a small army debating, investigating and gathering real data to be sure every single one of their products is correctly priced for their targeted audience. With different price points and target audiences in different countries.

[andythenorth]

42039: £70 on discount in the UK. Large race car, 4 wheels, engine.

Porsche: £249. Large race car, 4 wheels, engine.

Nah, not going to buy the Porsche. Comparing 42039 and the Porsche will look like comparing apples and oranges to some of you, but to some people it is just a big box of plastic parts that makes a push-along Lego car. One of the people in the second group is very definitely my wife.

I think the Porsche is aimed at a different kind of person to me. I hope it's a success for Lego

Back to the point of the thread - the outlier is the sticker price. It may be an irrational viewpoint, but the sticker price is too big to swallow. The PPP may be statistically static, but the sticker price is what I pay at the checkout.

Edited April 27, 2016 by andythenorth

[Cumulonimbus]

I think that at the core of this 42056 commotion is the confusion between the notions of "price" and "value".

As most here will know, the price of a product is simply put the cost to produce that product with a profit margin added. This is relatively straight forward and manufacturers only have limited possibilities here to adjust the price. They can reduce production cost, often while compromising other aspects such a quality, or increase the margin, with the danger of pricing themselves out of the market.

The value however is much more vague to define. The value of any product is always the personal scoring of that product and depends on countless aspect such as scarcity, urgency, availability, personal history, and many many others. An item I value highly might feel worthless to anybody else. Note that because of this ambiguity, manufacturers have much more "tricks" to influence your value scoring of their product and as a consequence try to justify a higher margin. They can attach a brand name to their product (Porsche license), artificially create scarcity (limited run of the 41999) or many other marketing strategies.

Now here is the crux: Any product will only be bought by a customer if the price of that products is lower than the perceived value of that product. If your value scoring of the 42059 is lower than the price at which it will be available, you will not buy the set. Others will value building/owing this set so high that they will be the first in line to buy it, almost at any price.

For the Porsche this means that the high price has triggered a discussion among the potential buyers about the value of this set (its size, colour, uniqueness, historic value, licence, etc). Since value is always subjective and a deeply personal scoring, this discussion will never come to a conclusion. To make matters even more complicated, both the price and the value will change over time. It would me too far to go into details about this evolution, but for me personally it means that I will wait until I find a price which will be low enough to match my value of this set. When this will be, I don't know yet, but I'm sure I will own this set sometime this year.

Edit: typos.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Cumulonimbus

[jgw]

One thing we missed all in our thinking proces: doesn't matter how long we discuss if it is overpriced or not, if it is an UCS, Lego is not going to chance the price. And if they call it a UCS, it is a UCS. But if it deserves that name, that's another cook ;-) How long we may complain, Lego isn't going to chance anything. Or they trolled us like bosses and the main model is lava orane with printed pieces and so on.

[brickless_kiwi]

Well Us poor kiwis are getting the blunt end of the stick $nz600 or $363 euros...

I seriously had this on my wish list and at this price I can't see any of the big boxes (chain stores ) having stock of

this set and discounting on sale....

[agrof]

We don't want to create push on TLG to change the price. 42056 seems to surpass a psychological limit, at least raised the bar in a never seen before height in Technic line. This doesn't mean, it is necessarily bad.

Every time such thing happens in any segment, the market starts to analyse, wether it brings advantage, and which ones.

Cumulonimbus said it right: value.

Edited April 27, 2016 by agrof

[Thirdwigg]

I think @Cumulonimbus is spot on. Yes, 42056 is expensive. But much like 8880, eventually I will be sorry if I missed out on it as it costs me more fifteen years later. The value/cost crossover for me may be during a double VIP point promotion, or something like that.

I don't need to order on June 1, but I will need to order before it is sold out: I'm following the limited availability discussion closely.

Like, 8448, 8455, and 9396 I'll be sorry in ten years if I miss this one.

[aol000xw]

You are wrong in a main point. Arocs new parts are underpriced. Deal with it.

I guess that you know that TLG spend tons of money for moulds. In Arocs we have new racks and v2 pneumatics.

Lets say, that moulds for Arocs racks and for Porshe rims costed 400 000 euro each one. But these racks they will use in different sets for ages - so they can take their money back in a future.

But with Porshe rims we have absolutely different case: these rims were designed only for this set. So if you want to take your investments back you have to rise the price. For instance if you plan to sell 20 000 boxes then you will ask more than 20 Euro per box from your customers. Only for rims.

And one more thing. I think, that TLG does not pay for licence more than 1$ (you can not make a contract between commercial companies for free) if we are talking about Mersedes, Volvo, Porshe. Of course they pay a lot for Marvel and WB. Because "Batman vs Superman" - is just intellectual property, but Porshe RS3 - first of all is beautiful car, and there are a lot of different other things in production total cost.

Price of Porshe's appearance (intellectual property) less then let's say 1% of cost of all of the RS3 cars which was produced and will be produced. Cost of intellectual property in total cost of "Batman vs Superman" is about 100%.

So, you will not pay 100 Euro for nice packaging and wonderfull book and licence for greedy Porshe AG. You will pay for beatiful Lego set.

sorry for wall of text.

All your figures are wrong. Deal with it.

An injection mold for those rims while expensive isn't in the range of 400.000€ even with the strictest tolerance levels and those rims aren't even polished. divide that amount by 2 at the very least, and that for a mold of the 4 Rims. Also 20000 boxes is a very very low amount of boxes for Technic. Lego itself considers 10k boxes a limited edition right? Technic sells way more units than that. Currently Lego sells globally 200+ million boxes per year. even if it is of their entire catalog that on average spans 2 seasons sets, that makes, what 300 sets? We could look for an average part number as we know that Lego sold last year 72 billion parts, after a significant growth from the previous year (again)

By the way, you made all the Licensing stuff out of thin air.