Your accounts will be fixed

[Capn Frank]

We need to refrain from messaging Skaforhire about our accounts being off. Hardly any of the accounts are currently correct. PMing him to scrutinize your accounts is not going to be beneficial to BoBS and everyone else. Doing so would likely cause him to burn out, which none of us want. He does have real life responsibilities outside of BoBS. If you still have discrepancies with your account, fill out the Adjudication Form. It may take us a little time to get to it!

The accounts will get fixed. Please be patient.

On a related note, Ska has not been strict on people going over in their accounts. Going over on your account a little more at this time is not a big deal, especially with the known errors.

Remember, this is only a game. Ska and the rest of teh BoBS Leadership team are working to ensure current methods are streamline and automated. Then, we'll all be able to enjoy BoBS more.

Thank you,

Evil Captain Phred

[CelesAurivern]

Some of us in Corrington were discussing how to keep our own accounts in order, on our end.

So I was thinking maintaining a spreadsheet and submitting that for any claims. That way, there'll be a standard, familiar format that is quick and easy to check.

Think of it like filing taxes on a monthly basis.

[Bregir]

I am personally keeping my own accounts in the spreadsheet I posted for all to use. And unless anyone expresses concern about my liquidity, I am going to stick to my own records. :)

[Elostirion]

I think what we all will still have to realise is that BoBS is not there for us to earn Dubloons, but that Dubloons exist to motivate us to MOC even harder, more and better.

[TitusV]

I think what we all will still have to realise is that BoBS is not there for us to earn Dubloons, but that Dubloons exist to motivate us to MOC even harder, more and better.

Seconded.

[Mike S]

I think what we all will still have to realise is that BoBS is not there for us to earn Dubloons, but that Dubloons exist to motivate us to MOC even harder, more and better.

I thought we already realized that... There are already so many builds being posted online in various places, so if I'm going to take up your time to present something to you, it hopefully will be worth your time to view.

[Captain Dee]

I think what we all will still have to realise is that BoBS is not there for us to earn Dubloons, but that Dubloons exist to motivate us to MOC even harder, more and better.

I sure hope everyone realizes this already. I'll take quality over quantity any day. At the moment there's a visible difference between, say, GoH and BoBS, owing to the big differences in their natures. I'm almost to the point of thinking there's too much activity - there are lots of opportunities to build from challenges, freebuilds, MCRA results etc and I think we'll all make a better BoBS world if we focus on building these things well, and not just building for game doubloons.

And to get back on topic, hopefully the work behind the scenes will yield some good results. Patience...

[Phadeout]

There are a lot of ways to earn through building, it is appealing to do so both on a personal level and on behalf of your faction. There is also a desire in individuals to set a scene for themselves to develop.

Maybe the way to ease the admin process is to scale back the number of opportunities to earn or make them less valuable, it may focus people more on what they are building.

Also there is currently no version in BoBS of the university of Petrea, did the creation of that change the way people built in GoH? I think I would happily slow down in order to achieve credits in that type of system, I am quite a reward driven person generally and see the process and the payout as both being important.

In terms of the original post, I filled out my adjudication form and had no intention of PM ing Ska, I can happily carry on building without the numbers being exact and I think it is a shame if people are getting bent out of shape over a couple of doubloons (shiny and bootiful as they are!).

[Fuzzy MacFuzz]

I think the really impprtant thing here is to acknowledge the amazing work Ska has done in setting up BoBS and thank him for it. So a heartfelt 'THANK YOU SKA!' from all of us.

If Ska does feel overwhelmed there are a number of ways that might be dealt with, for example keeping our own accounts or setting a strict limit of 2 free builds a month for all players.

On the university thing, there is actually a suggestion of a skill tree in the original BoBS rules but it hasn't developed yet, probably because Ska is too busy for the reasons outlined by Phred! I am very new here but would be happy to help develop this. A very simple system would simply be to record build categories in the different areas (farmer, architect, soldier, ship builder etc.) and at different levels (apprentice, journeyman, master or something like that; we could even have different rank names for every build class) for all players. Each build would qualify in only one build area, nominated by the builder. I would be willing to help set this up, hopefully with some other volunteers. Personaly I would avoid the need for approvals from other builders as it creates more admin work, and instead set simple objective criteria which builders can use to self-accredit. Maybe to limit admin work but still allow peer accreditation, approvals could be used just for the highest level of each skill tree (mastery).

Edited March 21, 2016 by Fuzzy MacFuzz

[TitusV]

I think the really impprtant thing here is to acknowledge the amazing work Ska has done in setting up BoBS and thank him for it. So a heartfelt 'THANK YOU SKA!' from all of us.

If Ska does feel overwhelmed there are a number of ways that might be dealt with, for example keeping our own accounts or setting a strict limit of 2 free builds a month for all players.

...

Indeed. We should all be gratefull.

I think keeping our own accounts would work, but I am AGAINST limits for freebuilds.

[Captain Braunsfeld]

Indeed. We should all be gratefull.

I think keeping our own accounts would work, but I am AGAINST limits for freebuilds.

I am grateful too - but I am also against limits for freebuilds, as I have usually more than 2 or three silly ideas per month.

I am trying to keep my own calculation up too. Unfortunately, as it is off from the official results, I do not always know whether there was a mistake somewhere or whether I forgot/misunderstood something.

We'll get there, slowly but surely...

[Capn Frank]

I have usually more than 2 or three silly ideas per month.

Noted. I really like the idea for all of your silly builds to count.

I am trying to keep my own calculation up too. Unfortunately, as it is off from the official results, I do not always know whether there was a mistake somewhere or whether I forgot/misunderstood something.

We'll get there, slowly but surely...

Hopefully in the near future, there may be a way for each member to at least confirm what builds were submitted.

[Jacob Nion]

I sure hope everyone realizes this already. I'll take quality over quantity any day. At the moment there's a visible difference between, say, GoH and BoBS, owing to the big differences in their natures. I'm almost to the point of thinking there's too much activity - there are lots of opportunities to build from challenges, freebuilds, MCRA results etc and I think we'll all make a better BoBS world if we focus on building these things well, and not just building for game doubloons.

And to get back on topic, hopefully the work behind the scenes will yield some good results. Patience...

During last years GoH Challenge there was a similar situation (haha, also "provoked" by Ska ). There were just so many battlefields that one could make half a dozen builds per week. Most of it was great work and amazing effort, you probably remember, but some mentioned the same thing, it was just hard to follow.

Since I'm a newbie to BoBS and still working on my first FB, I'm probably not suitable for thowing in my two pennies. But would it be an option to have only a limited number of free builds which can be used for getting doubloons? In Shadows of Nar Eurbrikka you can build as many free builds in a period as you want, but only a limited number can be chosen to earn xp.

[Legostone]

During last years GoH Challenge there was a similar situation (haha, also "provoked" by Ska ). There were just so many battlefields that one could make half a dozen builds per week. Most of it was great work and amazing effort, you probably remember, but some mentioned the same thing, it was just hard to follow.

Since I'm a newbie to BoBS and still working on my first FB, I'm probably not suitable for thowing in my two pennies. But would it be an option to have only a limited number of free builds which can be used for getting doubloons? In Shadows of Nar Eurbrikka you can build as many free builds in a period as you want, but only a limited number can be chosen to earn xp.

If that would make stuff easier for the administration I would definitely be for that. Maybe have 3rd and further FB just count half the amount of DB as the one before, so 3rd -> 5DB; 4th -> 3 DB; 5th -> 2DB; 6th and further -> 1DB

Just give textfield for FB number, which would allow you directly to calculate it in; way easier than to count through the approvals by hand. Could even automate the part of calculating how much a member made through FB that month if one would want to go through making a function for that (which shouldn't be to difficult really)

[Elostirion]

Since I'm a newbie to BoBS and still working on my first FB, I'm probably not suitable for thowing in my two pennies. But would it be an option to have only a limited number of free builds which can be used for getting doubloons? In Shadows of Nar Eurbrikka you can build as many free builds in a period as you want, but only a limited number can be chosen to earn xp.

I really don't think the amount of freebuilds allowed is the problem. For me this is 0% of the problem.

It's the licenses & challenges & other tasks, or rather the combination of those. This month I had to:

* build sth. to become mayor

* MOC the MCRA-results

* enter the Musician-challenge

* MOC a ship I had won in an auction

and with that actually had nothing for a new license, so

* I added a dockyard to the ship

so that I have something to license. However next up are

* one build for a license this month

* two challenge entries for challenge 2

* a build for a license next month

Really nothing of that has to do anything with freebuilds. Reducing those would not be the solution. Reducing challenges or the "pressure" for licenses would be.

However on the other hand I actually rather see this as positive

* Most posts here show 80% upwards of the builder's current skill. Most don't show 100% or 120% (a massive improvement) of our skills yet, but that is ok for me.

* There are few bad builds, and those mostly come from inexperienced builders.

* right, there are quite a few mediocre builds around (mediocre builder going for the 80%), but that is ok for me.

* The game has so far forced me into many new things: Ships, musicians, colonial housing, plantation, microbuild - none of which I would have done without the pressure coming from earning Dubloons.

* We have all built our initial ships, intros, free or first licenses etc. - those won't come again, so the amount of builds the "Veterans" will have to build will decline, so the quality will rise

[Captain Dee]

If that would make stuff easier for the administration I would definitely be for that. Maybe have 3rd and further FB just count half the amount of DB as the one before, so 3rd -> 5DB; 4th -> 3 DB; 5th -> 2DB; 6th and further -> 1DB

Just give textfield for FB number, which would allow you directly to calculate it in; way easier than to count through the approvals by hand. Could even automate the part of calculating how much a member made through FB that month if one would want to go through making a function for that (which shouldn't be to difficult really)

The issue is being discussed as part of the accounts solution.

[Fuzzy MacFuzz]

Although I suggested the 2FB limit as one possible solution, on reflection I think that would reduce creativity without necessarily reducing workload. But clearly tallying all the approvals takes time for someone, I have always thought this was a weird system anyway, don't we trust each other to maintain quality?

Overall, perhaps we could move to a self-accounting system for everything, with random 'auditing' by the leadership? I don't really see any need for central accounting anyway, we're all responsible adults here, and even national governments are happy to use self-assessment for tax collection (I have done mine for over a decade)! This would need a simpler written explanation of the many sources of income, perhaps in the form of a flow diagram or something, I would be happy to do that. I know a couple of folks are testing BoBS accounts spreadsheets so that's a possiblity too.

I would like to hear Ska's voice in this conversation. An awful lot of this depends on how he and the other leaders feel and how much time they can spare. If they are happy with it, there is actually no need to change the current system, but it seems the workload is growing with the membership. Ska wrote the rules, so his voice is crucial if we are thinking of changng them.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Fuzzy MacFuzz

[Kai NRG]

Leadership is actually in the process of changing the free-build scoring system to eliminate the approval aspect and to simplify it for automation. So hold your horses for an update in April!

[Capt Wolf]

I realize the approval system is probably an accounting nightmare, but I think it is something that encourages quality builds. Without it, I fear people would be more inclined to crank out builds of lesser quality to just get whatever doubloons are being offered. So while I appreciate the need to make it simpler on the accounting end, I'd hate to see the approval system disappear entirely.

[CelesAurivern]

I'm all for reducing the workload of the accountant, so I think this is a step in the right direction.

If people want to produce builds of 'lesser' quality, they will do so for FBs 1 and 2 anyway.

In any case, I'm confident the leadership will intervene if there are builds that simply do not meet standards. Let us leave the judging to them.

[Kai NRG]

...In any case, I'm confident the leadership will intervene if there are builds that simply do not meet standards. Let us leave the judging to them.

That's the plan!

[Kwatchi]

Although I suggested the 2FB limit as one possible solution, on reflection I think that would reduce creativity without necessarily reducing workload. But clearly tallying all the approvals takes time for someone, I have always thought this was a weird system anyway, don't we trust each other to maintain quality?

I think that is only half of it. The EGS rules encourage rapid expansion of colonies with the licensing rules of 2/3 per month, so those playing the economic game will obviously feel obliged to push to that limit which means rushed projects in abundance. If the monthly property licensing limits are reduced, the personal ship limit reduced, and the mayor's pay eliminated or reduced, I think you'll get better results. This might have to be applied retroactively mind you so that early adopters are not given to much of a head start.

Having said that, we're only 2.5 months in (I started a month late myself). Personally, I know that my collection is lacking in certain bricks required to produce polished MOCs (e.g. earth tones, tiles, classic style windows and doors, ship bits) but Bricklink/B&P orders only arrive so quickly. That should be taken into consideration this early into things.

[Sir Stig]

I think that is only half of it. The EGS rules encourage rapid expansion of colonies with the licensing rules of 2/3 per month, so those playing the economic game will obviously feel obliged to push to that limit which means rushed projects in abundance. If the monthly property licensing limits are reduced, the personal ship limit reduced, and the mayor's pay eliminated or reduced, I think you'll get better results. This might have to be applied retroactively mind you so that early adopters are not given to much of a head start.

Having said that, we're only 2.5 months in (I started a month late myself). Personally, I know that my collection is lacking in certain bricks required to produce polished MOCs (e.g. earth tones, tiles, classic style windows and doors, ship bits) but Bricklink/B&P orders only arrive so quickly. That should be taken into consideration this early into things.

First, I think to much money is being generated for the game to be balanced. I would like to see more risk and more random misfortune (maybe 10-20% chance for good events, 30-40% chance for bad events). We are making more money either way, so more bad stuff is just food for creativity with the building. As to the lack of bricks. This will always be a challenge. I have just recently realized I can not keep my builds assembled if I want to keep up with the monthly challenges/FBs/MRCA results/etc... This is sad, but as Elostirion mentioned, having some defined rules for builds keeps us trying new things. I would prefer having some of the points for the first two FBs based on approvals, and less points for each subsequent build. I am feeling the pressure of having to finish a lot of builds to keep up (I am sadly more competitive than I would like, so it is hard to just chill and play it casually).

The Mayor pay is miniscule, in comparison to other ventures like MCRA and investing in property. And so far several mayors have offered more than the mayor pay in subsidies for people to build in their cities, but I am biased on this subject, since I got a mayor position myself. So far I have not seen anyone wanting those subsidies though, and this may be because the numerous amount of different builds each month, so there is not much time left to FB (even without licencing if people prefer to licence in their respective factions areas). This poses a challenge, since I find much of the fun in the stories that unfolds, and especially when these are centered around persons, and the people they encounter, regardless of faction. So if one of my characters needs a scene, in lets say Granoleon, to tell their story I need to "waste" a build that I don't have enough time to. This hinders me so much that I have to keep my story restricted to Eslandola, and preferable MCTC area. I could just don't give a ... about DBs and FIPs/PIPs, but that's not in my nature (as Eslandolanian and as a player).

[TitusV]

First, I think to much money is being generated for the game to be balanced. I would like to see more risk and more random misfortune (maybe 10-20% chance for good events, 30-40% chance for bad events). We are making more money either way, so more bad stuff is just food for creativity with the building. As to the lack of bricks. This will always be a challenge. I have just recently realized I can not keep my builds assembled if I want to keep up with the monthly challenges/FBs/MRCA results/etc... This is sad, but as Elostirion mentioned, having some defined rules for builds keeps us trying new things. I would prefer having some of the points for the first two FBs based on approvals, and less points for each subsequent build. I am feeling the pressure of having to finish a lot of builds to keep up (I am sadly more competitive than I would like, so it is hard to just chill and play it casually).

The Mayor pay is miniscule, in comparison to other ventures like MCRA and investing in property. And so far several mayors have offered more than the mayor pay in subsidies for people to build in their cities, but I am biased on this subject, since I got a mayor position myself. So far I have not seen anyone wanting those subsidies though, and this may be because the numerous amount of different builds each month, so there is not much time left to FB (even without licencing if people prefer to licence in their respective factions areas). This poses a challenge, since I find much of the fun in the stories that unfolds, and especially when these are centered around persons, and the people they encounter, regardless of faction. So if one of my characters needs a scene, in lets say Granoleon, to tell their story I need to "waste" a build that I don't have enough time to. This hinders me so much that I have to keep my story restricted to Eslandola, and preferable MCTC area. I could just don't give a ... about DBs and FIPs/PIPs, but that's not in my nature (as Eslandolanian and as a player).

Agreed on (most points)

[Captain Braunsfeld]

I'll throw in what I am currently wondering about and maybe this perspective is helpful in some way.

* The game has so far forced me into many new things: Ships, musicians, colonial housing, plantation, microbuild - none of which I would have done without the pressure coming from earning Dubloons.

What Elostirion said about that driving force of the game is true (for me). This is also similar to my experience with the Kaliphlin Civil War in GoH.

I would not have thought about building a mine or a plantation if that would not offer some advantage for me in this game. Fine!

The dubloon pressure, however, is a factor, that is worrying.

Here's why:

Some people are lucky in the MCRA and some just **** up just like me and end up with zero income after the first two months of MRCA.

And this is pretty bad, because everything interesting in the game only comes with significant investment costs.

So if your ships return to port with gold and diamonds your free to blossom. If you lose your ship or similar, your only chance still to stay in the game is to knock out FBs.

And even if the quota gets modified to (e.g.) 10-10-5-3-2-1 there would probably still be players around who'd hunger for that single dubloon (probably me).

First ship is free/first property is free (if small) - that is the generous rule that keeps me afloat.

And it is good to have such rules to give the game some balance. We might need more of that.

How does the dubloon pressure affect quality?

Well, the higher the output per month the lower the level of quality you can achieve per build (you just don't have the luxury of time).

Only when you need approvals from the other players, this situation starts to change. This is why I like the approval mechanism that is applied from FB3 onwards.

Do we want to have high quality?

Would that not be a deterrant for new joiners/junior builders?

Do we want to have fun?

Would that be more interesting than going for high quality?

Or is it really all about dubloons?

As a builder, I want to have fun. And I want others to see (and admire, if possible - or feel entertained by) my MOCs. I want my five minutes of stardom.

Given the high turnover of MOCs that we currently have, even the most fantastic MOC would just be washed to the 2nd page after 3 days.

And disappear down to page 3 or higher after a week. And be forgotten after a month, never to be found again amongst the hundreds of entries BoBS has.

Let's get out goals clear. What kind of game/community is BoBS supposed to be/become?

Is it "fun", "quality" or "dubloons"?

So far, the key thing seems to be "dubloons", but I'd be in for "fun" and "quality".

(Sorry, no monkeys in this one).