Bregir

The Naval Licensing and Prize Court

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I do understand your logic Bregir, but that would mean that Kodi should not be allowed to use this vessel inside Bobs as it is presented somewhere else.

The vessel hasn't been posted in BoBs (yet??), so once it is posted here, Kodi can create whatever story he wants about that vessel.

if you see it as Kodi selling his service for refitting a vessel like the one he painted, and the captured licence of another player is a vessel that fits the requirements, I could see it working (as said, Kodi only showed us a drawing of a non-existing vessel in the world of BoBS, a vessel without name nor fame)

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Although I completely  agree with you on that point about "retconning" the story of already moced ships @Bregir, I must admit that I did something similar, just the other way around; I used a 4A license of an unmoced prize to licence my junk, without giving her a background story of being a prize ship I captured during the mrca. 

And I must say, even if I felt like it was a bit violating the intention of prizes, for playing the game I would find it odd if a prize license couldn't be used this way, because I like to build the ships I'm up to, and develop my personal story, and that is not done by licensing only prize ships.

And something different; perhaps it's not the right thread, but the right time to ask: the rules state that a player may use a captured ship that is moced and licenced whenever. Does that mean even if I already own more than 3 licenced ships I do not have to pay the difference between license value and increased cost for a +third ship?

And if I own a license and did built the ship, could I sell both things separately to a player so that he may licence it himself? (Just in case for him the licencing would be cheaper)

Edited by Jacob Nion

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Just now, Jacob Nion said:

Although I completely  agree with you on that point about "retconning" the story of already moced ships @Bregir, I must admit that I did something similar, just the other way around; I used a 4A license of an unmiced prize to licence my junk, without giving her a background story of being a prize ship I captured during the mrca. 

And I must say, even if I felt like it was a bit violating the intention of prizes, for playing the game I would find it odd if a prize license couldn't be used this way, because I like to build the ships I'm up to, and develop my personal story, and that is not done by licensing only prize ships.

Personally, I think you did violate the intention somewhat. :pir-tongue: I think we will have a richer story if we build on what is granted, so you *should*, in my opinion, have worked that into your story.

2 minutes ago, Jacob Nion said:

And something different; perhaps it's not the right thread, but the right time to ask: the rules state that a player may use a captured ship that is moced and licenced whenever. Does that mean even if I already own more than 3 licenced ships I do not have to pay the difference between license value and increased cost for a +third ship?

You always have to pay the difference. So to activate a 4th ship (moc'ed by someone else and then captured by you) you would have to pay 50 % of the license cost. (To reach the 150 %)

3 minutes ago, Jacob Nion said:

And if I own a license and did built the ship, could I sell both things separately to a player so that he may licence it himself? (Just in case for him the licencing would be cheaper)

To understand you correctly, in your suggestion, you have paid 150 % on the ship, as it is *your* fourth ship, but would like to sell it to someone for whom it would be 3rd ship or so?

I don't think we have ever addressed this issue (and with the new ship classes coming out soon (and this time I really mean soon ;) ) it will no longer be a problem. But no, you cannot sell them separately (well, that is to say, if the two have not been linked, you could sell him the license, and then the services of outitting the prize (the moc) as you described earlier). However, if you haven't already paid the 50 % difference (haven't activated it, so to speak) you can sell the ship (with license). I am not sure that made any sense at all.

35 minutes ago, Maxim I said:

I do understand your logic Bregir, but that would mean that Kodi should not be allowed to use this vessel inside Bobs as it is presented somewhere else.

The vessel hasn't been posted in BoBs (yet??), so once it is posted here, Kodi can create whatever story he wants about that vessel.

if you see it as Kodi selling his service for refitting a vessel like the one he painted, and the captured licence of another player is a vessel that fits the requirements, I could see it working (as said, Kodi only showed us a drawing of a non-existing vessel in the world of BoBS, a vessel without name nor fame)

As I said, it is a small thing. But the ship was posted here as a ship for sale. (And anyways, its is a moot point, as a bid of 500 db is hardly unfair.) And in principle, we should not change that. :pir-blush:

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@Bregir I think we meant the same in major points. It is hard to discribe but a simple case: just imagine I captured an NPC ship, and it would be my fourth ship. I intend to sell, but to increase the value I moc it. Now if I was to sell it to someone for whom it would be the third ship, it logically would be cheaper for him to licence it himself. 

Now my question was if I  built the ship, state that it definitely is this very prize (to avoid the issue you mentioned about retconning an existing ship to be the prize), would it be legal to sell a player both the license and the unlicenced ship as a so to say 'licence-it-yourself-kit'? 

Only reason would be to lower the price and increase my income (something all of you seem to be interested in).

About the thing with my junk, you may understand that for a professional pirate, who mainly concentrates on seizing ships to use them for strengthening his fleet (because he is not that much into landlubbery and generating monthly income) it can become a boring routine if the only background story he can give to his ships is that he captured them. At least with the current rules, that is. 

For a player who mainly focusses on trade it can be an exciting thing to capture a ship from time to time. But for hard working pirate captains it is literally the only thing to do. 

Edited by Jacob Nion

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1 minute ago, Jacob Nion said:

@Bregir I think we meant the same in major points. It is hard to discribe but a simple case: just imagine I captured an NPC ship, and it would be my fourth ship. I intend to sell, but to increase the value I moc it. Now if I was to sell it to someone for whom it would be the third ship, it logically would be cheaper for him to licence it himself. 

Well, if you haven't activated it yourself yet (paid the extra 50 %) you could sell it as a licensed moc. You only need to "activate it", if you intend to use it in the MRCA yourself. There are plenty of inactive licenses lying around, not having been activated.

In fact, regardless of whether you have paid the 50 % extra, 100 % extra or nothing at all, what you sell will always be a ship with a license. (Of course, you can also sell the two parts separately, if they haven't been "combined" IC) So yes to this question:

4 minutes ago, Jacob Nion said:

Now my question was if I  built the ship, state that it definitely is this very prize (to avoid the issue you mentioned about retconning an existing ship to be the prize), would it be legal to sell a player both the license and the unlicenced ship as a so to say 'licence-it-yourself-kit'? 

:pir-blush:

If anyone disagree's with my interpretation of the rules, let me know, but as I see it, this is the only way to avoid speculation and gaming of the system, while keeping it workable.

5 minutes ago, Jacob Nion said:

About the thing with my junk, you may understand that for a professional pirate, who mainly concentrates on seizing ships to use them for strengthening his fleet (because he is not that much into landlubbery and generating monthly income) it can become a boring routine if the only background story you can give your ships is that you captured them. At least with the current rules, that is. 

For a player who mainly focusses on trade it can be an exciting thing to capture a ship from time to time. But for hard working pirate captains it is literally the only thing to do. 

I would assume that from time to time, you would actually pay for a new ship? While I see your point, I think I value the IC immersion above the flexibility in this case. It would make perfect sense for me that a pirate would employ captured warships along newly built warships in his fleet. And you have different options - selling your prizes, for instance. I am not really sure I see it as such a strong limitation, actually. :tongue: I see that it doesn't go with your story for the junk, but concievably, it could have been adjusted to fit.

I feel that I cannot defend being flexible on this matter, while being rigid on the one of Bodi's ship, so forgive me on the rigidity! :pir-blush:

 

Also, to @Bodi and the rest of Oleon, sorry for cluttering your thread!

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2 hours ago, Bregir said:

For that to happen, one should use the prize court to transform the old ship to money, with which to buy a new. To me, the license cost represents not the paperwork (literally: License) but the construction costs, i.e. there is no distinction between a ship and its license. A ship *is* its license, so to speak. I also believe that is how the Naval Licensing courts have ruled in the past.

Well, actually technically I think the "license" is supposed to be half paperwork, half construction cost... at least in the case of land licenses.  But that's kind of way back there if you ask me. :pir_laugh2:  I look at a captured license as basically a free ship license.  Okay, so, it doesn't make sense IC for a captured vessel to be built and then bought off someone else's dockyards: but here's what does make sense - the vessel was captured, but damaged in the fight, so it needed to be restored, so the license owner contracted someone else to do the restoring.  Are there any holes in that? :pir-tongue:  I just think it should be left up to the players discretion if they want to have a watertight storyline that makes perfect sense, or if they don't have time/creativity for that and would rather just play the game!  There's nothing wrong with paying someone to build any other ship for you, and the practical reality is exactly the same in both cases, however the story may need a work-around.

Really, Bregir, sometimes making a story make sense is just too complicated... and this is a game isn't it? :pir_laugh2:  You've probably read plenty of novels or watched TV shows that had a plot hole or two.  And those authors don't get MRCA results thrown at them randomly! :pir-grin:   (For the record, I can't stand plot holes and try to be super-extra careful to avoid them in my own writing... but RPGs are a little different.)

Anyhow, it's not like I plan on doing that myself, so this is just my two cents on the discussion and an attempt to get the last word in:pir_tong2:

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Just now, Kai NRG said:

and an attempt to get the last word in.

NEVER! :pir-wink:

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5 hours ago, Bregir said:

But you cannot use an existing license for a ship bought here, I would say.

I disagree.

4 hours ago, Bregir said:

For that to happen, one should use the prize court to transform the old ship to money, with which to buy a new. To me, the license cost represents not the paperwork (literally: License) but the construction costs, i.e. there is no distinction between a ship and its license. A ship *is* its license, so to speak. I also believe that is how the Naval Licensing courts have ruled in the past.

And to me, a license is just a piece of paper giving you permission to use a vessel the specifications of which depend on the class being bought. If I buy a fishing license, I'm not buying the fish, I'm buying the legal right to keep the fish I've caught. Same with a hunting license. Same with these ship licenses. If I buy a 4A license, I should be able to use it on any 4A ship I own, whether I'm building it new, captured it, or bought it. I'm paying to attach the license to the ship. You could argue about where the actual cost for the ship comes into play, but this is a game, not real life, and we just need to let the game mechanics work sometimes.

2 hours ago, Jacob Nion said:

About the thing with my junk, you may understand that for a professional pirate, who mainly concentrates on seizing ships to use them for strengthening his fleet (because he is not that much into landlubbery and generating monthly income) it can become a boring routine if the only background story he can give to his ships is that he captured them. At least with the current rules, that is. 

For a player who mainly focusses on trade it can be an exciting thing to capture a ship from time to time. But for hard working pirate captains it is literally the only thing to do. 

I think Bregir's opinions are because he focuses on trade. Allow those of us who focus on capturing have a say!

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Ok, obviously we need to take this up in leadership :) . Anyone can continue the debate here, but we will get back when we have a decision. :)

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17 minutes ago, Bregir said:

Ok, obviously we need to take this up in leadership :) . Anyone can continue the debate here, but we will get back when we have a decision. :)

Alright, as I said before I get your point. A prize I captured is basically supposed to be a ship that already exists ingame, even if it is an unmoced one. And I can understand that it basically already has a background story in that way, that it was a ship I seized. But I can't see where it is gaming the system if I change that background story. It remains the same ship type and class, it gains me no advantages if I say that it either was a prize or (as I did with the junk) that it is a pirate ship that joins my fleet because the fictional captain wants to. It is just a story thing and has nothing to do with the EGS. 

Something different would be (as said previously) if I use a prize license on a ship I've already built just because it fits the ship. That would mean I could build dozens of ships and just wait for the suitable license to be captured by my fleet. 

And to see it from a different angle, let's imagine I would have captured that license, built the ship like I did and then wrote a story about how I sold the prize and paid the yield to a junk pirate captain to join me. It would have changed nothing for the EGS or the game mechanics. It would only have limited my story developing because I was forced to include that prize ship somewhere. 

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My point was that that junk should IC had been the exact ship you captured. Since the mrca results probably said very little about the prize, it could conceivably be a junk :) . I agree, this isn't about gaming the system, but about IC consistency - as you said, a capture is supposed to represent a captured ship, not the capture of a piece of paper giving you the tight to such a ship. (That would make no sense, IC :P )

My personal opinion is still the rigid interpretation, as I believe it to give the most immersive experience, but it is more a principal stance than a practical one, as I agree that the actual implications are limited. (Plus, it will not be relevant with the capture of an already moc'ed ship. There I assume you will not rewrote the story of the vessel... :P ) And thus, that is how I will play it. I will, for the sake of immersion, suggest others to do the same, but it is not a point I will get all that worked up over.

I still think we should limit these... manouvres. Even though it is only "gaming the system" IC wise, I am still a little afraid it could lead to some interpretations that are a bit too creative.

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A ship license is a permit to allow the ship to participate in the MRCA.  I don't think selling an unlicensed ship is explicitly prohibited in the rules.  But the buyer would still have to license it if he/she wants that ship to participate in the MRCA. 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Bregir said:

the license cost represents not the paperwork (literally: License) but the construction costs

That is exactly what it is. half is construction, half is paper work. It says this in the rules (or it did in the beginning anyway.)  This is why Sea Rats pay half, there is no paperwork, but there is still materials.

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4 hours ago, Maxim I said:

Oleon really is a faction with two faces :p

Legostone already donated a vessel to the RNTC and the auctions of Eslandola are open to anyone. But oh my god, the world ends if he is interested in buying an Oleon vessel :p I think his offer was royal enough though.

Oleon blames Eslandola for their aggressive (?) behaviour, but when capturing a Namere tradevessel, the officials are nowhere to be seen explaining this act of aggression. 

And I can go on :p

Hmm... it really seems we live in post-fact times... :grin:

As LS just corrected the first bit of fake news, here's some more:

  • ESL auctions off captured licenses - the subject in question here is a MOC
  • ESL members pay 20% less for these licenses than foreigners
  • ESL warship licenses are only available to ESL members
  • NAM trade-vessel was captured by a joint anti pirate force, the last KPA was a bit... flawed... so this might have just been a pirate, and even if not, OL does indeed have beef with NAM after they captured our ships in the past - so even if all you said was true, it'd be a legitimate act

I'll leave it at this, and refrain from getting into an evaluation here :wink:

#checkyoursources

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24 minutes ago, Kolonialbeamter said:

Hmm... it really seems we live in post-fact times... :grin:

As LS just corrected the first bit of fake news, here's some more:

  • ESL auctions off captured licenses - the subject in question here is a MOC
  • ESL members pay 20% less for these licenses than foreigners
  • ESL warship licenses are only available to ESL members
  • NAM trade-vessel was captured by a joint anti pirate force, the last KPA was a bit... flawed... so this might have just been a pirate, and even if not, OL does indeed have beef with NAM after they captured our ships in the past - so even if all you said was true, it'd be a legitimate act

I'll leave it at this, and refrain from getting into an evaluation here :wink:

#checkyoursources

 
 

- Well, we haven't captured any mocced vessels this far, and all the vessels I've sold so far (except for the first one nobody but Bregir wanted and still has (I doubt there will ever be a deal like that again)) would've been available to everyone. 

- Well, the vessels capturing these licenses are typically built by Eslandolan shipyards. This might change temporarily for the next auction (NO Promise here), and we are the only faction with a government auctioning off ships. Argue as you want, in the current situation it makes most sense to have the captured warships remain in a faction where they will be used against our enemy.

- Well, there hasn't been an answer to this. Maybe you should've clarified this the first time Maxim asked? Also, don't get mad the next time we accidentally capture a Marderian merchant - you are doing the very same thing (and be it on accident)...

 

Oh, and btw - is it still possible to buy islands and what how much does one have to pay to get one?

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Before anyone starts to get any fancy ideas, Corrington is NOT going to pay for any walls you may chose to build... Just thought I would let it be known! :tongue:

LS: No, I don't believe you can buy an island. What you can do, however, is to settle any uninhabited island with a squatter settlement and make your claim that way. It is risky business, but so it should be. ;)

But you may be able to bribe/pay/induce other nations to acknowledge your claim with a bit of gold. Although I would be careful not to encroach on anyone's territory... :P

Also, I don't think KB necessarily has any issue with how you do your auctions, but merely pointed out that Maxim was holding Oleon up to standards Esl does not uphold itself. :P

Lastly, you never asked if Corrington was interested in buying further vessels. (Or if I did) I am pretty sure we would be happy to consider any offer to outfit some of our captured prizes. ;)

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10 minutes ago, Bregir said:

Before anyone starts to get any fancy ideas, Corrington is NOT going to pay for any walls you may chose to build... Just thought I would let it be known! :tongue:

LS: No, I don't believe you can buy an island. What you can do, however, is to settle any uninhabited island with a squatter settlement and make your claim that way. It is risky business, but so it should be. ;)

But you may be able to bribe/pay/induce other nations to acknowledge your claim with a bit of gold. Although I would be careful not to encroach on anyone's territory... :P

Also, I don't think KB necessarily has any issue with how you do your auctions, but merely pointed out that Maxim was holding Oleon up to standards Esl does not uphold itself. :P

Lastly, you never asked if Corrington was interested in buying further vessels. (Or if I did) I am pretty sure we would be happy to consider any offer to outfit some of our captured prizes. ;)

 
 

I'm not building any walls here:P

Maybe later then :D

We'll see, its all hypothetical...

Well, we are the only faction holding public auctions, so I think that's a moot point. Hey, all of the merchant ships in the last auction were sold to non-Eslandolans... And always said that we wouldn't get anyone into trouble for selling the (war)ships they bought in our auctions to anyone (surprised nobody has made use of this)...

Currently I'm occupied with refitting my captured prizes (I think I have at least 4 more... I need to check my lists), but anyone interested in obtaining a ship from me may message me at any time; I can't promise quick delivery as I have a bunch of other ships that have been ordered/reserved over the past couple months... 

 

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5 minutes ago, Legostone said:

And always said that we wouldn't get anyone into trouble for selling the (war)ships they bought in our auctions to anyone (surprised nobody has made use of this)...

Then your rule seems rather ridiculous, does it not? If you basicly invite us to circumvent it? :pir_laugh2:

7 minutes ago, Legostone said:

Well, we are the only faction holding public auctions, so I think that's a moot point.

You are also the only faction at war, and thus the only really doing any offensive operations... :pir-wink:

9 minutes ago, Legostone said:

but anyone interested in obtaining a ship from me may message me at any time

So, should I just place an order for 3 ships already, and watch as they move up the list? :tongue:

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37 minutes ago, Bregir said:

 

You are also the only faction at war, and thus the only really doing any offensive operations... :pir-wink:

As KBB pointed out, they have a beef with Namere where they allow their fleet to capture Namere tradevessels.

You may call it what you want, but this sounds as being in a war for me.

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2 hours ago, Bregir said:

Then your rule seems rather ridiculous, does it not? If you basicly invite us to circumvent it? :pir_laugh2:

So, should I just place an order for 3 ships already, and watch as they move up the list? :tongue:

1) Nah ;) And well, the rules will be slightly different next time around anyways...

2) That's not how this works:P But you may send me a message with the shiptypes you need and the price you are willing to pay and your ships may or may not be prioritised in my shipyards... (uncommon shiptypes are always something interesting...)

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2 hours ago, Bregir said:

Then your rule seems rather ridiculous, does it not? If you basicly invite us to circumvent it? :pir_laugh2:

It's just about the government's choice to sell vs. individuals choices... which is the same as individual vs. individual... maybe I have some beef against KB and won't sell him a ship, but if you buy a ship from me and then turn around and sell it to KB, well, I may be mad, but it was perfectly legal! :pir-grin:

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For all the complaints about ESL not auctioning off its captured warships to non-ESL players, I don't see any other factions auctioning off warships at all. And I find it hard to believe none of you have taken the initiative to build a MOC of a ship matching the class of the license of an auctioned trade ship, but more heavily armed than a standard merchant, and then ask the naval licensing court to grant a license change to an armed vessel based on her "refit". Any 4T2 license could be converted to a 4A if you just build the MOC and ask the naval licensing court. Seems like an easy approach to me.

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16 minutes ago, Capt Wolf said:

 I don't see any other factions auctioning off warships at all. 

Nevertheless there where three warships in that last Eslandolan auction that where the property of a Corrington mayor :devil:

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19 minutes ago, Capt Wolf said:

And I find it hard to believe none of you have taken the initiative to build a MOC of a ship matching the class of the license of an auctioned trade ship, but more heavily armed than a standard merchant, and then ask the naval licensing court to grant a license change to an armed vessel based on her "refit". Any 4T2 license could be converted to a 4A if you just build the MOC and ask the naval licensing court. Seems like an easy approach to me.

Just for the record, based on precedence, this wouldn't be accepted by the court. To change a license, you will have to have the original ship moc'ed (in this case a 4T2), and then show the refit in some way. (To have it accepted as a 4A)

But that way around, it could be done. :pir-blush:

I do think, though, that it is fair for people to have an opinion on how you run your auctions, IC and OOC, but you are of course free to do however you please within the rules! :pir-grin:

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22 minutes ago, Tomsche said:

Nevertheless there where three warships in that last Eslandolan auction that where the property of a Corrington mayor :devil:

I was unaware of this. Care to share details?

11 minutes ago, Bodi said:

That's a lot of posts, mostly on rules that I still trying to figure out, but I do understand that Oleon doesn't owe anything to Eslandola. Well then, I'm gonna keep the ships for Oleanders and license them properly as freebuild. 

Vive le Roi!

And that makes sense! There's no need to go off chasing every last doubloon. In spite of the loss to my faction, I applaud your decision.

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