Jim

42054 - Claas Xerion 5000 Trac VC

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@1974 all new tractors from every brand above the 100 hbp has suspension on the front axl. Even the ford, it is almost 20 years now New Holland, and the John Deere tractors you are speaking off. John Deere uses a live axl until the 250 bhp and above that the same kind of axl as the Claas with two swing arms.

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Thank you Henkl, I obviously don't know what I'mn talking about then, sorry

Could you point me to some examples of what type of suspension these tractors have?

Thanx in advance :thumbup:

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So you, with you're minimal knowledge of all things Technic, how do you think it's done? :wink:

Cheers,

Ole

If I would have to design it...? Hmmm...

Start with normal three beam steering setup on the rear axle (no gearrack!). Do the same for the front axle, but here add a steering beam on both sides. Put a catching mechanism (two bionicle teeth with a gap in between or something like that) on each steering beam (both sides).

Now make a slider that can move forwards and backwards and has a couple of levers (just 2L beam with crosshole) sticking out that can engage in the bionicle teeth and can rotate around it's own axle. By rotating it will push the catching mechanism left and right and steer the wheels. By sliding it it can engage in the front (front side) --> front wheel steering, the front (front side) & rear --> 4 wheel steering and the front (rear side) and rear --> crab steering.

The rotation angle of the slider is small enough that it will always catch the lever within the bionicle teeth, no matter the angle.

I'm pretty sure it is not like this though, because the lever on the backside is moving side-to-side to switch modes and it is difficult to transfer than side-to-side motion to a front-to-back sliding motion... Rotation is not too difficult on the other hand, that is just some gears sliding past each other.

Just my 2 cts :tongue:

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...

Maybe I misunderstood, but your solution seems to have most problems that other solutions have.

-Slack (the teeth would fit quite well, but with low operation range, even a small slack would be scaled up).

-Only front wheel steer would leave the rear steering free to move (you need to lock the rear simultaneously)

-required wheels to be straight when mode switching

-maybe not: no prevention to switch modes when the wheels are steered to extreme

I have experimented with a similar setup for weeks (the two steering beam thing, which was also made by Efferman by the way, but he made it with gear racks). The only reliable solution (all 3 modes, minimal slack, no jamming during steering, no jamming during mode switch and preventing mode switch when steered) ended up too huge for the particular model.

Just the mode switching of 3 modes themselves need 5 units of stroke: 4w - something to prevent desync - 2w - something to prevent desync - crab. Forget half modules (which would mean 2.5 module total stroke) as half beams will surely jam during steering. So you have 5 modules of stroke.

EDIT2: sorry for my brain running amok, but I recalled that this stroke is also problematic because you don't have telescopic axles in that length, so either you have to re-route with extra gears (and extra slack, not to mention that you can't have the axles oriented in the same angle), or have a big telescopic assembly (for example with the new hubs).

I also theorized a system that doesn't require straight wheels to switch modes, it would have been huge.

Really, the easiest was to solve it is with electronics. 2 servos for each axle and a pole reverser (or go for fully RC and just two independently steerable axles).

I have a smaller solution with just crab and 4 wheel modes with okay slack: it uses knob wheels and require only one module stroke. Though there is no desync prevention, but you can only switch mode if the wheels are steered to extreme (so it's much better than it would be with gears).

Sorry for my English, it's late any I'm sleepy.

EDIT: The 42054 seems to have 5-stroke mode switching too.

Edited by Lipko

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TLG does not solve problems with motors (hence the piss poor perfomance of 42009 and the same problems with the new BWE), they prefer to sell gears instead

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Most tractors have pendulum suspension on the axis with the least working load - ie the front. Tractors are built for function - adding suspension would reduce the contact force on the lower wheel (uncompressed side), so would result in loss of traction for that wheel. A pendulum suspension means the same load/contact force is on all wheels all the time unless the pendulum reaches its limit.

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I will be ordering the 6x6 red radar dishes on August, 1st right away from LEGO customer service. :wub_drool:

Hail for that one!

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They also have CVT (continuous variable transmission), which means they can be geared down to extremely slow speeds (I've worked with some going about 0.1 miles/hour). Really don't need anything more than a pendular suspension, which is needed on farms due to the many ruts and furrows present in the fields. More important to have all four wheels in equal contact with the ground. If one wheel has more load than the others, could sink into mud and get stuck. Even distribution of load helps with traction over a wide range of field conditions.

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I will be ordering the 6x6 red radar dishes on August, 1st right away from LEGO customer service. :wub_drool:

Sure you will, as they cost a fortune on BL right now due to that particular set. When _this_ set will be parted out, the dish will drop from 20EUR to fifty cents

Still a few days to make a boatload of money :wink:

Edited by 1974

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Maybe I misunderstood, but your solution seems to have most problems that other solutions have.

-Slack (the teeth would fit quite well, but with low operation range, even a small slack would be scaled up).

-Only front wheel steer would leave the rear steering free to move (you need to lock the rear simultaneously)

-required wheels to be straight when mode switching

-maybe not: no prevention to switch modes when the wheels are steered to extreme

I have experimented with a similar setup for weeks (the two steering beam thing, which was also made by Efferman by the way, but he made it with gear racks). The only reliable solution (all 3 modes, minimal slack, no jamming during steering, no jamming during mode switch and preventing mode switch when steered) ended up too huge for the particular model.

Just the mode switching of 3 modes themselves need 5 units of stroke: 4w - something to prevent desync - 2w - something to prevent desync - crab. Forget half modules (which would mean 2.5 module total stroke) as half beams will surely jam during steering. So you have 5 modules of stroke.

EDIT2: sorry for my brain running amok, but I recalled that this stroke is also problematic because you don't have telescopic axles in that length, so either you have to re-route with extra gears (and extra slack, not to mention that you can't have the axles oriented in the same angle), or have a big telescopic assembly (for example with the new hubs).

I also theorized a system that doesn't require straight wheels to switch modes, it would have been huge.

Really, the easiest was to solve it is with electronics. 2 servos for each axle and a pole reverser (or go for fully RC and just two independently steerable axles).

I have a smaller solution with just crab and 4 wheel modes with okay slack: it uses knob wheels and require only one module stroke. Though there is no desync prevention, but you can only switch mode if the wheels are steered to extreme (so it's much better than it would be with gears).

Sorry for my English, it's late any I'm sleepy.

EDIT: The 42054 seems to have 5-stroke mode switching too.

You are absolutely right with most points, but still the Claes does work... And they have minimal space to work with... I am really, really curious what solution they came up with :excited:

I am not sure why you would need telescoping axles. If you have one axle that can slide backwards and forward you only need one gear on the axle and N gears in a row above it so that it can move in N positions but still engage with one of the gears on top (basically a linear gearbox with just one gear-ratio for every position).

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I really like this set and it is a must buy for me. especially the tires are great.

A pendular axle is no suspension , its just a way to make sure all wheels have contact with the ground.

And i own a Massey ferguson tractor 6270 and it has a pendular axle in the front that also is suspended.

It has hydraulic pistons and some sort of gas that can be compressed. and with a switch inside the cabine you can turn the suspension off for use with equipment in the field.

When i drive on road, even with attachments in the front and/or back the suspension works.

Nice, my father too has an MF 6270 and I've taken some inspiration...

On topic, I have built quite some Lego tractors (the YT link proves that) and I'm really happy that Lego is finally taking the effort to make proper tires. It is my deepest wish that more sizes become available so that the real Lego Tractor builders can do their thing... because this Claas is really a quite easy tractor to build with it equally-sized wheels. Most tractors that are produced and used now don't have equally sized wheels. Having a tractor with equally-sized wheels is just an easy trick to solve the 4WD problem (because the 4WD is more complex with different sizes of front and rear tires). The MF tractor in the video above has a center differential to divide the power equally over the front and rear axle, and that complexity is maybe not what the Lego designers are allowed to build into their designs.

So from a Lego Designers point of view, it's handy to start with a tractor with equally-sized tires. I'm not sure about the design of the bonnet of this Claas though, I need a little to much of my imagination. I'm trying to be strict for my own tractors, so I'm automatically strict for the tractors of others too...My guess for the heavyness of the steering: very heavy because there's a lot of weight over the front axle. My guess for the turning circle: very large, because the front tires are too wide to allow a larger steering lock. On most tractors. the front tires are narrower just to enable a larger steering lock. Because this is Lego, off course this is not the case.

Edited by 896gerard

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Here's a theory:

TLG's triple steering modes have the same problem described in the attempts people here have mentioned, which leads to the poor turning radius observed, BUT we don't see enough to know that the problems are occurring, because we only see a few seconds of each mode.

Maybe?

Either way, can't wait to put it together and find out what they've done.

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Here's a theory:

TLG's triple steering modes have the same problem described in the attempts people here have mentioned, which leads to the poor turning radius observed, BUT we don't see enough to know that the problems are occurring, because we only see a few seconds of each mode.

Maybe?

Either way, can't wait to put it together and find out what they've done.

I'm pretty sure the TLG solution is quite simple because the mode can only be switched when all 4 wheels are in straight forward position. If you look carefully at the video you can see that the operator always first steers back to neutral wheel position before switching steering-mode...

A reliable just mechanical solution with such small space which allows switching regardless of the current wheel Position is not possible IMHO

Just my 2ct

Edited by Kumbbl

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Then you agree with me that this probably has the same problem other people are having with 3-mode steering alignment issues? Their solution is just to lock out switching if they aren't straight.

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I am not sure why you would need telescoping axles. If you have one axle that can slide backwards and forward you only need one gear on the axle and N gears in a row above it so that it can move in N positions but still engage with one of the gears on top (basically a linear gearbox with just one gear-ratio for every position).

You are right, but that means extra slack. Anyway, I'm very curious hoe they solved it, maybe it is far from optimal. For example by ditching the fake engine and drive for the battery box, they freed up quite amount of place.

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@1974 all new tractors from every brand above the 100 hbp has suspension on the front axl. Even the ford, it is almost 20 years now New Holland, and the John Deere tractors you are speaking off. John Deere uses a live axl until the 250 bhp and above that the same kind of axl as the Claas with two swing arms.

I hope that this will not be general tractor forum, but Fendt and Deere models that are competition to xerion use front independent suspension and smaller models use suspension like trucks (jcb factrac) or like lego unimog...

btw. wheels are the same like on volvo loader 42030, but there will be disappointment if lego would not produce 81,6 and 94,8 tires with the same tread pattern like on Xerion to enamle us moc builders to make other tractors that have non equal wheels/tires.

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My Apologies

I thought we were talking about this Specific model (Claas Xerion 5000 Trac VC) which coinsedently is the said model in the description.. :wink:

as far as my little knowledge goes the Big Tractors are meant for flat terrain, but I might be wrong.

xerion-5000_1.jpg

There are a lot of different suspension types... the smaller models do have a pendular axle/swing arms in the front :thumbup:

arion-400_2.jpg

Just my 2cents

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I am very excited about this set, but it definitely needs the exhaust on the front. I see the other ones have the exhaust coming out the side by the steps. Can anyone tell me on the real one what is the purpose of the cab turning around?.

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The explanation from official page

Ultra-convenient reverse-drive system.

The cab on the XERION TRAC VC (Variable Cab) can be rotated through 180° in less than 30 seconds by the press of a button. This new position at the rear of the tractor gives the driver an excellent view of rear-mounted attachments. All the controls move as well – automatically. For tasks such as forage work, chopping wood, snow blowing or mulching, this convenience is unique.

Edited by Strojnik80

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Im not very experienced in TECHNIC, but i think, that solution to make 3 modes of steering is simple. You just need simple gearbox with one driving ring and two gears with clutch - so you have tree positions - neutral, and two directions. Input axel will be connected to front wheels and output to rear wheels. To avoiding switching between modes you just need short liftarm conected to input axle, which will rotate, when you steer, so it will prevent switching modes, if it wont be vertical.

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I am 99% percent certain it won't be done using any gears at all to switch steering modes. It will probably be done by moving the pivot point of a lever so that it changes relative to it's connected lever. So that if the pivot is to the left, it moves one way, if the pivot is in the middle it doesn't move and if the pivot is to the right it moves the opposite way. This way there is not as much slack and it can be changed regardless of the current steering position.

Edited by allanp

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I am very excited about this set, but it definitely needs the exhaust on the front. I see the other ones have the exhaust coming out the side by the steps.

But I don't see an exhaust on the latest version of Xerion 5000...

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It most certainly is more complex than that. The biggest issue with having multiple steering modes is to make sure the phase of the front & rear wheels stay intact. Your setup will only work if you switch mode when all wheels are at 0 degrees at the time of switching. If you switch from front-wheel steering to 4 wheel steering while the front wheels are still angled it will start to jam up pretty quickly.

In the demonstration video you can actually see the guy switching while the wheels were not in neutral position. That is some really clever mechanics inside...

My bet is on a linkage system, but I haven't figured out yet what kind of linkage...

I am pretty much aware of all this, just wanted to see how it will work with gearbox. And there is actually a bigger problem than synchronization, and that is that gearbox itself isn't "responsive" enough.

There is some empty movement of the gearbox before it catches wormgear. Since this is inherent property of gearbox, i doubt it is made with one.

I was thinking some system based on arocs steering mechanism. In fact in one of videos you can see the lever for switching modes is moving in-and-out when steering.

I actually think that mechanism itself is pretty much simple, and that we will all have that "A-HA!" moment when we see it :)

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I am pretty much aware of all this, just wanted to see how it will work with gearbox. And there is actually a bigger problem than synchronization, and that is that gearbox itself isn't "responsive" enough.

There is some empty movement of the gearbox before it catches wormgear. Since this is inherent property of gearbox, i doubt it is made with one.

I was thinking some system based on arocs steering mechanism. In fact in one of videos you can see the lever for switching modes is moving in-and-out when steering.

I actually think that mechanism itself is pretty much simple, and that we will all have that "A-HA!" moment when we see it :)

You mean you didn't have that moment when you read my previous comment? :laugh:

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