Sea Rats: Sign-up and Discussion

[Fuzzy MacFuzz]

I posted this comment in this thread:

"'My point is Sea Rats are pirates.'

I totally agree Maxim. But my point is that the current MRCA makes piracy pretty risky and poorly rewarded. I would like to hear what those who have actually attempted piracy in the game have to say on this?"

So, what do you Sea Rats think? Please feel free to pile into the discussion.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Fuzzy MacFuzz

[Tezclatipoca]

I posted this comment in this thread:

"'My point is Sea Rats are pirates.'

I totally agree Maxim. But my point is that the current MRCA makes piracy pretty risky and poorly rewarded. I would like to hear what those who have actually attempted piracy in the game have to say on this?"

So, what do you Sea Rats think? Please feel free to pile into the discussion.

I Totally agree with you !

I said that previously on the same Topic :

"After reading all your reflections here, you are just suggesting that the Pirates (or Sea Rats if you want to call them like that ! ) have less interest to become pirates and have a Faction "handicap" as they are not considered like a "well established" nation and they are diplomatically not in good terms with no one.

I agree with that.

If we are looking well, historically, there were many reasons to turn pirate !

1) The pirates were freemen or flleing their country mainly for religious reasons (at least the ones on Tortuga at the begining of the pirate code, or during the leadership of François Levasseur in Basse-Terre)

2) The pirates were mainly issued from crew that were badly lead or worked in awful conditions in the official country warships. Mutiny was frequent and the pirate crews were more free on a free ship than on an english ship for example.

3) Powerty. Many men tempted a chance to survive in the Caraibean sea rather than dying of hunger on the old continent.

And I'll pass on other reasons...

But we don't have any of these reasons here to be a Pirate !

The main Nations are quite well lead and are equally rich (or nearly... Corrington a bit more but, sorry my corry friends, that's still doable... ).

There is no real religious persecutions (even Oleon is not a hard seeker of pagan to punish )

So what to do ?

Perhaps some MRCA actions specifically oriented towards some act of piracy could be good. Bounty hunting is not good enough IMO, perhaps it needs improvement.

Pirates could have the right to hide some treasures and seek for them by a special action on land (BTW, this is the main activity of the LEGO Pirates in the official sets !) instead of using trading ships on trading runs and in addition, could have a cargo value on their Armed vessels (or use some Well Rounded ships full of crewmen !)

And to solve the problem with Eslandola attacking them, Sea Rats could be able to deal some immunity with the concerned authorities (at a price to be debate... ). In the conter part, the nations could hire some Pirates hunters to seek and destroy every black ship at view. Historically, Spain (just one example) paid some warships to track down every threat against its Silver Convoys. They were pittyless towards Pirates !

Just my two cents and I really think we should debate on that later."

So What do you Pirates think of this ?

[Garmadon]

I posted this comment in this thread:

"'My point is Sea Rats are pirates.'

I totally agree Maxim. But my point is that the current MRCA makes piracy pretty risky and poorly rewarded. I would like to hear what those who have actually attempted piracy in the game have to say on this?"

So, what do you Sea Rats think? Please feel free to pile into the discussion.

I completely agree with you here (on the first point)!

Eslandola did not attempt piracy! In fact, it only hunted down ships from a couple of hostile nations, while pirates have the ability to attack anyone. However, if you want statistics, a 2A made 140DBs in a single run on a pirate hunting expedition. A poor reward, really?!

The problem, I think, is simply that hardly anybody has even tried it!

Edit: Oh, I should specify though that the 2A was working with a couple of 4As as well, as that could have had something to do with it!

[Capn Frank]

"'My point is Sea Rats are pirates.'

I Totally agree with you !

Simply because a nation is founded by wayward dissidents and lack a unified culture, does not make them Pirates.

Not all Sea Rats are Pirates and not all Pirates are Sea Rats.

---

And to solve the problem with Eslandola attacking them, Sea Rats could be able to deal some immunity with the concerned authorities (at a price to be debate... ). In the conter part, the nations could hire some Pirates hunters to seek and destroy every black ship at view. Historically, Spain (just one example) paid some warships to track down every threat against its Silver Convoys. They were pittyless towards Pirates !

I am curious how you would define Corrington warships attacking your convoys because a couple of bad, Eslan apples raided Corrington? Piracy? An act of war? This is a time of peace for all of us. We imperial powers need to be an example to these backward people. Not attacking them with one hand and waving a peace treaty with the other.

[Captain Dee]

Where in hades did the idea that "Sea Rats are pirates" come from? The name "Sea Rats" was chosen over "Pirates" as a way of allowing non-pirates to participate in a non-imperial faction. If the faction was all pirates you can bet it would be called "Pirates." Lego didn't start a theme called "Sea Rats" and for a good reason.

Piracy is defined as robbery at sea. Any Sea Rat not engaging in that is most definitely not a pirate.

Privateering is a legally recognized form of piracy, plain and simple - employed during war, meaning that claims of privateering by anyone would need prior declaration of war or some open hostility.

Many privateers kept right on raiding after peace was declared, making them plain ol' pirates in the eye of the law. And subject to execution like any other.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Captain Dee

[Kwatchi]

I put my response to this nonsense in the Mardier Challenge thread. It should clear up some of the misunderstanding.

.

[MKJoshA]

Not all Sea Rats are pirates is most accurate. Sea Rats may be the faction most prone to piracy, but we have not been pursuing acts of piracy the past couple months. We have been traders. And as such we see ESL's attack on us as an act of aggression. We had no reason to be against ESL before, but now not only are they holding 2 of our ships, they are refusing to admit that they committed an act of piracy! I ask the Sea Rats, Corrington, and Oleon what choice they would make concerning this rogue nation? If they seek to take out the Sea Rats today and refuse to admit it, why not Oleon tomorrow and then Corrington? Then there will be no one left to speak up! We must demand ESL to give an honest account of their actions and restitution where required.

[Kai NRG]

Not all Sea Rats are pirates. True.

All Sea Rats are outside of the law. I think this is also true. Why are all Sea Rat settlements squatter settlements? Why does the Sea Rat faction have no court system? Why are there no Sea Rat taxes?

Did Eslandola commit an act of piracy/aggression by sending out a few ships with the specific intention of attacking Sea Rats, a "nation" with no recognized legal status? I'm sure we all have our own opinions on this. But this is what the court case is supposed to decide (guilty or not guilty). Until then, I vote we let the subject rest.

[Bregir]

Kai, OOC that is a viable position, but IC you cannot stop the Sea Rats from protesting. And while you might not (IC) consider them a nation with which rules and diplomacy hold, maybe others do? At least, they are perfectly justified in complaining (IC).

You can't just (IC) hide it away in a courtcase and expect everyone to accept that (IC).

[Fuzzy MacFuzz]

Here's the first five words on the Sea Rats introduction:

The Sea Rats

Nickname: Pirates

I don't think that can be much clearer!

Edited April 15, 2016 by Fuzzy MacFuzz

[Bregir]

If I were a Sea Rat, I would be insulted by all those foreigners trying to define, what they are. And that based not on actual actions, but on conjecture.

[CelesAurivern]

Here's the first five words on the Sea Rats introduction:

The Sea Rats

Nickname: Pirates

I don't think that can be much clearer!

Did you mean to emphasise 'NICKNAME'?

[MKJoshA]

Did you mean to emphasise 'NICKNAME'?

My words exactly!

[Kai NRG]

Kai, OOC that is a viable position, but IC you cannot stop the Sea Rats from protesting. And while you might not (IC) consider them a nation with which rules and diplomacy hold, maybe others do? At least, they are perfectly justified in complaining (IC).

You can't just (IC) hide it away in a courtcase and expect everyone to accept that (IC).

Of course, you guys can all keep discussing your merry hearts out on this topic. I was just saying that I intend to let it rest. Repeating the same thing over and over is getting a little wearing, for me.

[Vedauwoo]

Wow...missed alot overnight....

Seems to me that the Sea Rats are the only faction that can't "make up the rules" when they want to......which, really is quite backwards....

All of these "courts" and megablocks is just getting a bit ridiculous....

ESL can reclaim their ships from an NPC nation (where they should be dead and gone) and we have no such option to resolve a PC vs. PC issue?????

This is a building game.....if anyone wants a ship back....shouldn't is simply be a matter of MOCing that action and some sort of community vote on whether or not they succeed....or a random roll done by an official GM, not just any faction leader that wants to claim they are in charge?

Unless I'm missing some "secret" in the rules....the Sea Rats are getting the raw end of the deal in this game....which wouldn't be bad if we had some sort of aggressive raid mechanic....but we don't.....

The issue of what we are needs to be established.....are we a faction? a proto-nation?

[blackdeathgr]

Vedauwoo, regarding your concerns, i believe the (upcoming) new rules will sweaten the deal for Sea Rats not only due to the difference of them to the other "proper" nations but also due to their low numbers. So, stay tuned

[Vedauwoo]

Vedauwoo, regarding your concerns, i believe the (upcoming) new rules will sweaten the deal for Sea Rats not only due to the difference of them to the other "proper" nations but also due to their low numbers. So, stay tuned

Woo Hoo!

[SkaForHire]

There is an important distinction that is being blurred here. In character versus out of character. The courts are in character, the factions control them. The game mechanics are out of character. The game is not rigged against the Sea Rats, the factions are. This is expected since the Sea Rats are assumingly people unwilling to be loyal to any one nation, making them unpredictable and un-protectable by many of the courts of the "civilized" world. In fact, Sea Rats could ACTUALLY hold their own courts, you have no government, you all can create whatever you wish out of it, even raise taxes if you want. (ie: and income tax)

settlement Raiding is meant to be hard, but you will notice that there is no squadron limit to settlement raiding for a reason... It will also pay a lot better in the next version. Commerce raiding is a bit off, but I think the new version gives many more chance to catch prey. Also, with the war rules, you could easily just blockade Nelissa until you got your ships back... but those are still a few months off.

Bottom line, the full rules have to come slowly because a) they are cumbersome to a new game b)parts had to be large scale play tested.

[Sir Stig]

Bottom line, the full rules have to come slowly because a) they are cumbersome to a new game b)parts had to be large scale play tested.

This I understand completely. All my feedback are meant based on game mechanics, as I perceive them. I try my very best not to be biased on this. Balance mean more than getting out on top. Getting the best out of a game because of holes and unbalance, instead of because of strategy would be a spartan victory. In no way is it critique. I have played and game mastered different pen&paper rpgs and strategy board games for over 20 years, so I just can't help myself from looking for and pointing out things I think may be askew. But I don't see the hole picture. A lot of things you already have the answers for, and I am impressed by the work laid down behind this. I mean to be constructive. Edited April 15, 2016 by Sir Stig

[Kwatchi]

To all Sea Rat Captains, please join the discussion in the MCRA 4 PM thread on the following. Hopefully we can resolve this internally in time for the next MCRA.

Note I will not be continuing the discussion with players outside the faction. Not to be rude, but you've said your piece and I don't believe you have a say in how we decide to enjoy the game going forward. Well... Ska gets say I suppose. :)

===

In my line of work (engineering consultant) we tend go about things by identifying the problem and then proposing solutions. So here's my take:

PROBLEM: THE SEA RAT FACTION AS IT STANDS IS IRREVOCABLY BROKEN

It is not just a problem of rules per se, but also one of perception. Our scope is too broad and our roles conflicting, and within three months our membership been split because of it. For whatever reasons we now have two halves of a whole: Free Traders and Pirates. And neither half is right or wrong.

Free Traders (or say smuggler nation) are those who have entered the economic game and are both prospering and enjoying in it. While staying free of trappings of nations, they are playing by the established rules and are building towards set goals. This being a Lego community, building goals is an admirable quality. To function properly, Free Traders need 1) Escort ships, of which the best we have access to are the 'royal' ones; 2) not be attacked by other factions with impunity under the lazy argument of "Well, they are all pirates so I can do what I want to them because they're bad".

Pirates are those who got into this game to roleplay the romantic figure of an independent pirate lord fighting ship battles and hiding treasure on far away islets. They came in expecting Blackbeard, Jack Sparrow, Long John Silver and got a game of city building and trade convoys overrunning everything. What Pirates need is not so clear as everyone of them sees this differently to be honest, but a set understanding of their place in the game would be a good start.

I don't believe these two can coexist. Free Traders will always suffer from being painted by the same brush as Pirates and the latter will always suffer as they cannot draw upon the faction resources (i.e. royal ships) to compete against the ship class arms race as these are desperately necessary to the traders. We will continue to pull in opposite directions and suffer for it.

I have three possible solutions, and two of these solutions do not require much of outside help from committees or decision makers. And we're 'owed' a solution to this as individual players in order to make sure our continuing in the game yields what we all most want... what we feel is fun.

SOLUTION 1: The Do Nothing Approach

We struggle on as is and try to come to internal compromises every month while waiting for Ska to fix things.

SOLUTION 2: The Great Dispersal

This would equate to something of a faction reset. A proclamation would be made in the forums stating along the lines of 'These Captains have had a change of heart and now being of good conscience wish it be known that they will except a royal pardon in exchange for taking a vow to the crown'. Any Captain could sign their name to the document, at which point the factions would be allowed to enter negotiations with either individuals or the whole lot of them with aim to switch over to their side. Any properties they had licensed would be reimbursed and "retconned" to appear in one of their new factions holdings.

Those who stayed (or didn't get a pardon offer ) would continue on as Sea Rats with the new understanding that they were lumped in with pirates and that all nations were permanently hostile with them, barring a separate agreement.

SOLUTION 3: The Schism

Rather than the Free Traders leaving, it is the Pirates that do so. Free Traders keep Bastion, the fleet, and the colours. They gain a legal court system and pseudo respectability but are required to keep their ports upon to Pirates for building and trading in perpetuity. Any who stay are granted pardons for past endeavours, as it is discovered they had sailed under a Letter of Marque from Garvey (retcon again). Sea Rats may declare war as a faction if/when they feel it convenient of course.

Pirates, willingly, take with them the shirt on their back and not much else. They give up access to the court system, faction ships, and a capital city. While they might have a nominal faction leader for rule purposes and gang up occasionally, they operate as independents. They own no islands unless they take them by force, and any squatter settlement they establish is at their peril. Pirates will be hostile to all the three existing factions unless a deal is cut (i.e. letter of marque, etc.). For Pirates, it becomes a game of survival more than anything else.

Once the split happens, the new Pirate (or Buccaneers maybe) Faction becomes closed to new player membership. That simply is because it would be a bit much for an entry level experience. In order to join, a player would reach a certain arbitrary goal (e.g. time played, Dbs collected, ship size, etc..) and must MOC their fall from grace. Player could conversely leave the pirates faction upon receiving a pardon, which once again needs to be MOC'ed and agreed to by the new faction leadership. In exchange for the new pirate's loss of previously licensed properties (which become unlicensed rather than destroyed in case he switches back later), they gain a discount on ship costs, while keeping the squatter building costs (losing the artisan yield bonus).

While separate factions, both Sea Rats and Buccaneers would compete in challenges jointly due to the low numbers at present. Any faction Dbs and FIPS would go to the Sea Rats in their entirety.

CONCLUSION

In case you didn't pick up on my slant, I like solution 3 the best. But this would need to be a majority decision.

Hopefully you have thoughts on the matter.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Kwatchi

[Vedauwoo]

There is an important distinction that is being blurred here. In character versus out of character. The courts are in character, the factions control them. The game mechanics are out of character. The game is not rigged against the Sea Rats, the factions are. This is expected since the Sea Rats are assumingly people unwilling to be loyal to any one nation, making them unpredictable and un-protectable by many of the courts of the "civilized" world. In fact, Sea Rats could ACTUALLY hold their own courts, you have no government, you all can create whatever you wish out of it, even raise taxes if you want. (ie: and income tax)

settlement Raiding is meant to be hard, but you will notice that there is no squadron limit to settlement raiding for a reason... It will also pay a lot better in the next version. Commerce raiding is a bit off, but I think the new version gives many more chance to catch prey. Also, with the war rules, you could easily just blockade Nelissa until you got your ships back... but those are still a few months off.

Bottom line, the full rules have to come slowly because a) they are cumbersome to a new game b)parts had to be large scale play tested.

Sounds good!

One other idea...regarding the ESL pirating kerfuffle....

If there are to be more "piratey" actions.....perhaps the "governed" factions should also have some "rule of law" to prevent their members from engaging in privateering.....not something that says they can't....but a court system (perhaps with MOC testimony) where, if found guilty, that player would be ejected from the "governed" faction and open to recruitment by the others.

In other words, a mechanic to insure players behave as part of the faction they joined....If that makes sense....

Edited April 16, 2016 by Vedauwoo

[SkaForHire]

Sounds good!

One other idea...regarding the ESL pirating kerfuffle....

If there are to be more "piratey" actions.....perhaps the "governed" factions should also have some "rule of law" to prevent their members from engaging in privateering.....not something that says they can't....but a court system (perhaps with MOC testimony) where, if found guilty, that player would be ejected from the "governed" faction and open to recruitment by the others.

In other words, a mechanic to insure players behave as part of the faction they joined....If that makes sense....

Yes, this was kind of my thought about how piracy within a faction could be handled, or even, if the judge is nice, levy a fine. We might not have enough membership to eject people too often though.

I have proposed a little bit of help for the MRCA and the Sea Rats, I am just waiting to see if there are any leadership objections before it becomes official. It should help ease the burden while we still play under MRCA I.

[Kai NRG]

From the High Council of Eslandola, to Susieh Cheng (dr_spock),

The Royal Historians have searched their records and discovered no accounts of aggression against Eslandola hitherto taken by the Great Scott in it career.

The Treasurer has searched his records and discovered that a Class 3 more or less will be insignificant to Eslandola's coffers.

Thus, the High Council has decided to send the Great Scott back to it's original owner, as an act of good will.

We also recommend finding a lookout with some expertise in dodge ball, and with a name other than Kenny.

__________________Guy K. Wyndzon

__________________Secretary of State

[Maxim I]

We also recommend finding a lookout with some expertise in dodge ball, and with a name other than Kenny.

Addendum: And we warn you for lookouts talking about respecting their "authoritie"... They are screwing their mates too much by going home...

[SkaForHire]

From the High Council of Eslandola, to Susieh Cheng (dr_spock),

The Royal Historians have searched their records and discovered no accounts of aggression against Eslandola hitherto taken by the Great Scott in it career.

The Treasurer has searched his records and discovered that a Class 3 more or less will be insignificant to Eslandola's coffers.

Thus, the High Council has decided to send the Great Scott back to it's original owner, as an act of good will.

We also recommend finding a lookout with some expertise in dodge ball, and with a name other than Kenny.

__________________Guy K. Wyndzon

__________________Secretary of State

So this means that it will go back to Garvey? (Or was it Mardier?) Original Owners? You mean back to Dr_spock, who captured the vessel in the first place, I assume.