Latest impact of other themes on historic themes

[Metanoios]

1 hour ago, Triceron said:

I have to say I'm always jealous of all these other themes getting brand new molds while the time has 'passed' for Castle to get the same treatment.  There's so much potential in having modular animal parts if they ever got around to designing them.  Swappable heads for different animals would make for some really cool mount variations.

Pretty sure the last "Castle" wave from 2016 to 2018 had a lot of new moulds. Including previous hints and statements, Lego is considering Nexo Knights part of the castle tradition as is currently shown in the instruction leaflet of 10305. So the next Castle wave might have new moulds like the last. Just because you and a part of the castle fandom doesn't consider it to be part of the "Castle" theme, does not change the classification of the company actually producing the sets.

[Triceron]

20 minutes ago, Metanoios said:

Pretty sure the last "Castle" wave from 2016 to 2018 had a lot of new moulds. Including previous hints and statements, Lego is considering Nexo Knights part of the castle tradition as is currently shown in the instruction leaflet of 10305. So the next Castle wave might have new moulds like the last. Just because you and a part of the castle fandom doesn't consider it to be part of the "Castle" theme, does not change the classification of the company actually producing the sets.

Nexo Knights has new molds, but still doesn't really have the modular animals that I was talking about :P

There are some cool stone-like enemies from the series that I like, but I still feel like Nexo Knights is too far removed from what I would put in my own collection.  I find a lot of the designs border too much on what I consider 'alien' more than fantasy.  I have that same love-hate relationship with many of the Ninjago Dragons, where there's some parts I really like but also some parts that make me scratch my head at how that is a Dragon at all.  It's once in a blue moon when they hit the nail on the head and make an impressive build like the Skull Sorcerer's Dragon.

I tend to look at Harry Potter as a better (modern) source for brick-built and molded fantasy creatures than Nexo Knights or Ninjago.  It's where we got Centaurs, Griffons, Phoenix, 'Nightmare' Thestral, Spirit animal Patronuses, and more.  And I'm really digging their brick built flying creature series like Hedwig, Fawkes and the new Horntail.  They're great minifigure scaled 'Dire' creatures that you could mount a few minis on or have attacking your castle towers.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Triceron

[Aanchir]

I'm pretty indifferent to Avatar as an IP (the movie was enjoyable in its own right, but not too memorable for me, and I'm not really excited at all for any of the sequels). That said, I am really impressed with the creatures environments from these sets! Lots of whimsical, brightly-colored alien plants and animals, nifty landscaping features like floating rocks and waterfalls, etc. A lot of it calls to mind stuff that I greatly enjoyed about the Elves and LEGO Movie 2 sets.

From a historic/fantasy standpoint, honestly a lot of the most promising parts I see are the more generic ones like the numerous water pieces in Tr. Light Blue, or the rock and plant pieces in assorted earth tones. Some of the creature parts could also be used for more conventional fantasy creatures like dragons, sea serpents, etc, though the dinosaur-influenced head molds and four-eyed head prints have decidedly more modern fantasy or sci-fi vibes than traditional folklore/mythology vibes, so I guess it's up to the individual builder whether that's a deal-breaker for them.

The most exciting part for me overall is the new wheelchair mold, which seems a little more compact than the current one (the wheel bearings are only three modules wide), and may fit through door frames more easily. But it's probably not too much use in historic contexts unless they introduced both the seat and wheels in a more neutral color like black or brown.

[Follows Closely]

58 minutes ago, Metanoios said:

...Lego is considering Nexo Knights part of the castle tradition as is currently shown in the instruction leaflet of 10305. So the next Castle wave might have new moulds like the last. Just because you and a part of the castle fandom doesn't consider it to be part of the "Castle" theme, does not change the classification of the company actually producing the sets.

This fact is often ignored. Which leads many fans into unnecessary despair. We had a large castle theme just four years ago. This theme had 107 sets with over 150 unique figures in a three year run. Just because we don't like the mashing of medieval and mech, does not mean we can pretend that this theme does not exist. It did and it was great for what it was. Just image if we get a traditional theme with just half the sets that Nexo-Knights*. 

 

* I am ignoring the tv show behind the theme that I am sure inflated sales. We are never going to get a proper castle theme again :(

[Lyichir]

12 minutes ago, Follows Closely said:

This fact is often ignored. Which leads many fans into unnecessary despair. We had a large castle theme just four years ago. This theme had 107 sets with over 150 unique figures in a three year run. Just because we don't like the mashing of medieval and mech, does not mean we can pretend that this theme does not exist. It did and it was great for what it was. Just image if we get a traditional theme with just half the sets that Nexo-Knights*. 

 

* I am ignoring the tv show behind the theme that I am sure inflated sales. We are never going to get a proper castle theme again :(

There's really no reason to assume that a more traditional castle theme couldn't have a TV show if that's what it took to promote sales on the level of other themes. Heck, even CITY has a TV show now! And I bet that themes like, say, Knights Kingdom II or Fantasy Castle might've been promoted with a TV series if they had happened after Ninjago had finally created success for Lego in the TV space, instead of before when Lego's previous attempts like Galidor had mostly failed.

Also, even more modest themes without TV series usually come with their fair share of new molds—look at Fantasy Castle and Kingdoms, both of which introduced a decent number of new molds for things like armor and weapons. A smaller theme might have more like 6 to 12 sets a year instead of the ambitious 30 or so sets a year that Nexo Knights got, but that's still enough to have an impact.

[gedren_y]

I missed the tall legs when I saw the Avatar images earlier. Now we can do a purist Fezzik for The Princess Bride.

[Triceron]

To be fair, their current outlook on modern kids banks on 'Superhero' themes.  And I don't blame them, since the ensemble cast of powerful heroes is what kids are into, even back in the 80's.  So I can see why they wouldn't make a Classic Castle or Classic Pirates TV series for kids when they could focus on series like Ninjago and Monkie Kid that hits the same market with more success.

I do think that the Classic Castle theme is best appealed to AFOLs who grew up with Castle rather than say incorporating modern kid-friendly techniques to make it more appealing to a new audience.  Like, it's hard enough to come across these Classic Castle revamps.  I don't know how I'd feel if, say for example, they start making 4+ style builds like we've seen recently for Marvel and Ninjago just to appeal to a new generation of fans.  I'm not interested in seeing Wolfpack return to be modernized into a band of bungling, accident-prone bandits for the sake of comic relief.  Just throw some minifigures in a set with bare minimum context and let our imaginations do the rest.  What they're currently doing with Blacksmith, Lion Knight's Castle and Forest Hideout are perfect.

[SirBlake]

1 hour ago, Metanoios said:

Pretty sure the last "Castle" wave from 2016 to 2018 had a lot of new moulds. Including previous hints and statements, Lego is considering Nexo Knights part of the castle tradition as is currently shown in the instruction leaflet of 10305. So the next Castle wave might have new moulds like the last. Just because you and a part of the castle fandom doesn't consider it to be part of the "Castle" theme, does not change the classification of the company actually producing the sets.

We’ve been through this and whatever tiny debate existed has been long settled. Nexo is NOT castle. It was a completely separate action/adventure theme with some castle elements. A similar argument to yours would say that Legends of Chima is part of the Fabuland theme. TLG is woefully inconsistent with what they consider within the bounds of a theme and what isn’t. Bricklink (owned by TLG) classifies Nexo as it’s own separate thing. 

Beyond whatever TLG wants to put in promotional literature, the thing that counts most is this: there is VERY little overlap in the fandom. Worse than that, the people who have been invested in castle for decades were largely repulsed by Nexo. That’s also got to count for something. 

[TeriXeri]

31 minutes ago, Triceron said:

 Like, it's hard enough to come across these Classic Castle revamps.  I don't know how I'd feel if, say for example, they start making 4+ style builds like we've seen recently for Marvel and Ninjago just to appeal to a new generation of fans.  

A 4+ castle would be something like this, not very interesting, 2014.

(2014 and 2022)

There's a whole category of princess castles too, some 4+, some higher then that, but still very different from a "Castle" theme.

Sets with horses are very scarce right now, but hopefully they'll come back in stock on Pick a Brick or small sets instead of more 4+ ...

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by TeriXeri

[Metanoios]

35 minutes ago, SirBlake said:

We’ve been through this and whatever tiny debate existed has been long settled. Nexo is NOT castle. It was a completely separate action/adventure theme with some castle elements. A similar argument to yours would say that Legends of Chima is part of the Fabuland theme. TLG is woefully inconsistent with what they consider within the bounds of a theme and what isn’t. Bricklink (owned by TLG) classifies Nexo as it’s own separate thing. 

Beyond whatever TLG wants to put in promotional literature, the thing that counts most is this: there is VERY little overlap in the fandom. Worse than that, the people who have been invested in castle for decades were largely repulsed by Nexo. That’s also got to count for something. 

The instruction pages I am referring to are right at the beginning of the first of the two 10305 instrucion booklets and depict the history of "Castle" with pictures and years, starting at 1978 with the 375 castle going over various sets from the 80s, 90s and 2000s and ending on a picture of Nexo Knight set 70317 with the year 2016 written above it. The Medieval Market village from 2009 is also pictured in this timeline right beside the Nexo Knight Fortrex. So tell me again how Nexo Knight ended up in the 90 year anniversary "Castle" timeline, if it is a completely separate thing? There are no Lord of the rings sets depicted or other buildings that are modelled after castles like many of the Disney sets. But Nexo Knights is in this official timeline.

Bricklink was acquired almost 2 years after the last wave of Nexo Knights was released. Your argument might have some merit, if Nexo Knights was classified while Bricklink was being owned by TLG. But alas this is not the case. TLG bought Bricklink as a platform for E-commerce and as a data source for market analysis, not as an official press release platform.

Like I said previously, the opinions and emotions of fans don't change the intentions or plans behind sets released by the company developing them. 

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Metanoios

[Triceron]

20 minutes ago, Metanoios said:

The instruction pages I am referring to are right at the beginning of the first of the two 10305 instrucion booklets and depict the history of "Castle" with pictures and years, starting at 1978 with the 375 castle going over various sets from the 80s, 90s and 2000s and ending on a picture of Nexo Knight set 70317 with the year 2016 written above it. The Medieval Market village from 2009 is also pictured in this timeline right beside the Nexo Knight Fortrex. So tell me again how Nexo Knight ended up in the 90 year anniversary "Castle" timeline, if it is a completely separate thing? There are no Lord of the rings sets depicted or other buildings that are modelled after castles like many of the Disney sets. But Nexo Knights is in this official timeline.

Bricklink was acquired almost 2 years after the last wave of Nexo Knights was released. Your argument might have some merit, if Nexo Knights was classified while Bricklink was being owned by TLG. But alas this is not the case. TLG bought Bricklink as a platform for E-commerce and as a data source for market analysis, not as an official press release platform.

Like I said previously, the opinions and emotions of fans don't change the intentions or plans behind sets released by the company developing them. 

 

Technicalities are technicalities.

How an official source considers it does not equate to how the fans will.  "Han shot first" is a grand example of that.

Nexo Knights is enough of an outlier to consider them part of Castle's history, but not of the Classic/Historic Castle lineup which we're all here for.

Anything else is splitting hairs really, because we're not really here to talk about how Nexo Knights is integrated into Castle.  Like all the non-castle sets in this thread, we're just looking at these themes as a source of parts to use.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Triceron

[SirBlake]

10 minutes ago, Metanoios said:

The instruction pages I am referring to are right at the beginning of the first of the two 10305 instrucion booklets and depict the history of "Castle" with pictures and years, starting at 1978 with the 375 castle going over various sets from the 80s, 90s and 2000s and ending on a picture of Nexo Knight set 70317 with the year 2016 written above it. The Medieval Market village from 2009 is also pictured in this timeline right beside the Nexo Knight Fortrex.

 

Yeah I know.

10 minutes ago, Metanoios said:

So tell me again how Nexo Knight ended up in the 90 year anniversary "Castle" timeline, if it is a completely separate thing?

 

Happy to tell you again: TLG is inconsistent in their positioning.

11 minutes ago, Metanoios said:

Bricklink was acquired almost 2 years after the last wave of Nexo Knights was released. Your argument might have some merit, if Nexo Knights was classified while Bricklink was being owned by TLG. But alas this is not the case. TLG bought Bricklink as a platform for E-commerce and as a data source for market analysis, not as an official press release platform.

Like I said previously, the opinions and emotions of fans don't change the intentions or plans behind sets released by the company developing them. 

How is this for merit: The Eurobricks community organizes things according to the community itself. You won't find any Nexo threads in this subforum because the community deemed it not related to Castle.

We are not beholden to a company's "intentions" and as far as I and most of the rest of the fans of the theme are concerned, TLG can take their intentions and stick them where the sun don't shine.

Continuing to harp on Nexo here is akin to insisting Ninjago belongs. One page in an instruction booklet in one set is not enough to change the facts. TLG may want to think Nexo is part of the conversation, but when the rubber meets the road, it does not. Period. End of story.

[Metanoios]

Just now, SirBlake said:

Yeah I know.

Happy to tell you again: TLG is inconsistent in their positioning.

How is this for merit: The Eurobricks community organizes things according to the community itself. You won't find any Nexo threads in this subforum because the community deemed it not related to Castle.

We are not beholden to a company's "intentions" and as far as I and most of the rest of the fans of the theme are concerned, TLG can take their intentions and stick them where the sun don't shine.

Continuing to harp on Nexo here is akin to insisting Ninjago belongs. One page in an instruction booklet in one set is not enough to change the facts. TLG may want to think Nexo is part of the conversation, but when the rubber meets the road, it does not. Period. End of story.

Great to talk to the utmost authority on this topic! My initial response was regarding the possibility of new moulds in the next Castle wave. Triceron said in one of his last replies to this thread that Castle was dead and would never get new moulds. Now, great "Castle"-Sensei, answer me this: Who does decide the budget distribution for new upcoming product waves or themes? Is it you and the "fans" or the Lego company and their upper management? That is why I made the argument (which in my eyes bodes well for upcoming castle waves), that if Lego considers Nexo as part of Castle, then the next wave might have a chance to include a lot of new moulds like the "last" Castle theme did (even if it gets only a fraction of the Nexo Knights budget).

I am not opposing your view, that Nexo is not Castle (to you and many others).By pointing out that Lego seems to consider Nexo a part of "Castle", I was trying to instill hope that Castle might actually be not completely abandoned by TLG and that they might be still giving a sizable budget to the theme in the near future.

 

[SirBlake]

20 minutes ago, Metanoios said:

Great to talk to the utmost authority on this topic! My initial response was regarding the possibility of new moulds in the next Castle wave. Triceron said in one of his last replies to this thread that Castle was dead and would never get new moulds. Now, great "Castle"-Sensei, answer me this: Who does decide the budget distribution for new upcoming product waves or themes? Is it you and the "fans" or the Lego company and their upper management? That is why I made the argument (which in my eyes bodes well for upcoming castle waves), that if Lego considers Nexo as part of Castle, then the next wave might have a chance to include a lot of new moulds like the "last" Castle theme did (even if it gets only a fraction of the Nexo Knights budget).

I am not opposing your view, that Nexo is not Castle (to you and many others).By pointing out that Lego seems to consider Nexo a part of "Castle", I was trying to instill hope that Castle might actually be not completely abandoned by TLG and that they might be still giving a sizable budget to the theme in the near future.

 

Fair points. I’ll do my best to reign in my patronizing attitude. 

Boiling this all down, I like the optimism that if Nexo = Castle, it sets a precedent for a larger “big bang theme” budget that could be applied to something that we may all define as Castle. 

Unfortunately I can’t share that optimism. Because the parameters for a bedrock theme (Castle, Space, Pirates) are so very different from a big bang theme (Ninjago, Chima, Nexo) based on TLG’s past actions. As much as I hate to say it, none of those bedrock themes will ever get that kind of budget or attention, even if we were to get a whole real theme like Kingdoms for example, history would indicate that a Nexo-like level of set volume, new parts, media, etc. just isn’t a realistic expectation. 

My guess is that any new parts we might see are going to come from CMF. A good example of that would be the newest sword.

A Lego designer has said in the last year or so (sorry, don’t have that reference handy) that opportunities for more traditional castle and pirates lie in things like Ideas and Creator. Something like the 90th set and forestmen GWP are also good examples that tell the same tale: outliers that are functionally one-offs, outside of the traditional theme structure. 

I would love for that all to be wrong, and that a true theme with a real budget were just over the horizon, but several years of neglect have left me a bit jaded. Sorry for the sermon from my high horse, lol. 

[Triceron]

49 minutes ago, SirBlake said:

A Lego designer has said in the last year or so (sorry, don’t have that reference handy) that opportunities for more traditional castle and pirates lie in things like Ideas and Creator. Something like the 90th set and forestmen GWP are also good examples that tell the same tale: outliers that are functionally one-offs, outside of the traditional theme structure. 

I would love for that all to be wrong, and that a true theme with a real budget were just over the horizon, but several years of neglect have left me a bit jaded. Sorry for the sermon from my high horse, lol. 

I think the rebranding of Icons helps bringing back classic Castle, Pirates and Space immensely.  Ideas is a great avenue, and Creator was a nice stop-gap, but having Icons will help push Castle products into AFOL territory without requiring a theme or having to fit the mold of Creator or an Ideas derivative.

[TeriXeri]

1 hour ago, Triceron said:

I think the rebranding of Icons helps bringing back classic Castle, Pirates and Space immensely.  Ideas is a great avenue, and Creator was a nice stop-gap, but having Icons will help push Castle products into AFOL territory without requiring a theme or having to fit the mold of Creator or an Ideas derivative.

What I'm wondering about is, if this "Castle System" or "Space System" will be some form of collection name like how LEGO started to do "Botanical Collection , Modular Building Collection, Fairground Collection, Botanical Collection" on their boxes after Creator Expert was changed.

Barracuda Bay also had this corner text in the same style (which was a 1989 set originally so it still falls in the old box design)

I see the Castle System text was a thing on boxes in the US along with piece count, on a set like 6080, so it's probably just that.

1990 seems to be the last year where LEGO used this yellow and lightblue corner design.

1991 had just a LEGO logo, and 1992 (on a set like Wolfpack Tower) the newer LEGO System logo ,as well as boxes that were issued later as sets were still in production.

Edited July 21, 2022 by TeriXeri

[icm]

That would be nice, but I doubt there's any intention to do that.  I think it's just part of the 90th Anniversary branding.

[SirBlake]

1 hour ago, Triceron said:

I think the rebranding of Icons helps bringing back classic Castle, Pirates and Space immensely.  Ideas is a great avenue, and Creator was a nice stop-gap, but having Icons will help push Castle products into AFOL territory without requiring a theme or having to fit the mold of Creator or an Ideas derivative.

That's something I'm ignorant about, and maybe nobody outside of TLG knows, but is Icons going to be an on-going thing rather than a temporary anniversary label? If it is, that's the clear path forward for Castle/Pirates type stuff. It would open things up from the limitations of Ideas and regular Creator. It would probably also be the last nail in the coffin of a full Castle theme, but I'll take what I can get.

[Triceron]

6 minutes ago, SirBlake said:

That's something I'm ignorant about, and maybe nobody outside of TLG knows, but is Icons going to be an on-going thing rather than a temporary anniversary label? If it is, that's the clear path forward for Castle/Pirates type stuff. It would open things up from the limitations of Ideas and regular Creator. It would probably also be the last nail in the coffin of a full Castle theme, but I'll take what I can get.

From what I'm aware, it's a rebranding of Creator Expert, which expands to both Liscenced and Unliscenced material.  And its intent seems to be aimed at anything and everything AFOL.

Since it's a rebranding for all things 18+, I think new retro Castle sets would fit best here.  The 90th Anniversary Castle set and Forest Hideout GWP are already labeled 18+.  That's really where Classic Castle fits in the grand scheme of things, as an AFOL targeted brand.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Triceron

[SirBlake]

Just now, Triceron said:

From what I'm aware, it's a rebranding of Creator Expert, which expands to both Liscenced and Unliscenced material.  And its intent seems to be aimed at anything and everything AFOL.

Since it's a rebranding for all things 18+, I think new retro Castle sets would fit best here.  The 90th Anniversary Castle set and Forest Hideout GWP are already labeled 18+, it only makes sense.  That's really where Classic Castle fits in the grand scheme of things, as an AFOL targeted brand.

That all makes a lot of sense. I think we can all see the value of a full regular theme, and lament its absence, but I think we're also due for better/higher quality, with lesser quantity, with an 18+ line.

[Rjbricks]

10 hours ago, Triceron said:

To be fair, their current outlook on modern kids banks on 'Superhero' themes.  And I don't blame them, since the ensemble cast of powerful heroes is what kids are into, even back in the 80's.  So I can see why they wouldn't make a Classic Castle or Classic Pirates TV series for kids when they could focus on series like Ninjago and Monkie Kid that hits the same market with more success.

I do think that the Classic Castle theme is best appealed to AFOLs who grew up with Castle rather than say incorporating modern kid-friendly techniques to make it more appealing to a new audience.  Like, it's hard enough to come across these Classic Castle revamps.  I don't know how I'd feel if, say for example, they start making 4+ style builds like we've seen recently for Marvel and Ninjago just to appeal to a new generation of fans.  I'm not interested in seeing Wolfpack return to be modernized into a band of bungling, accident-prone bandits for the sake of comic relief.  Just throw some minifigures in a set with bare minimum context and let our imaginations do the rest.  What they're currently doing with Blacksmith, Lion Knight's Castle and Forest Hideout are perfect.

I wouldn't be too disappointed if TLG started doing 4+ style bulbs for a Classic castle style. Not only are there no stickers on 4+ builds but (just using Marvel and Ninjago as examples), it's unlikely to be limited to just 4+ builds. Ninjago had things like Ninjago City Gardens and Marvel has sets like the Daily Bugle and the new Dr Strange set. 

  

[MAB]

11 hours ago, SirBlake said:

How is this for merit: The Eurobricks community organizes things according to the community itself. You won't find any Nexo threads in this subforum because the community deemed it not related to Castle.

 

That is not down to community, it is down to moderation on Eurobricks. We are told Nexo Knights is action and adventure - it is named in the contents - and off topic posts get moved. Plus there is no Castle forum on EB. There is this wider historic theme, but Nexo Knights doesn't fit into that being futuristic.

[gedren_y]

This whole recent discussion about Nexo Knights stems from a comment about how long Castle has been in hiatus. The point was that Lego internally considers Nexo Knights to be a Castle theme, so they do not consider Castle to have been gone as long as most AFOLs do. The original comment was making both points. There is no need to argue.

[Frike]

Every time I open this thread I giggle at the first post, "spare me the discussion about Nexo please". It's weird to see the same discussion almost 7 years later.

[Roebuck]

If we get a normal wave of e.g. Castle sets aimed mostly at kids it would probably get around the same budget as e.g. City has, so a few new moulded parts. A similar set as the 90 year castle under the Icons theme would most likely only have a maximum of 1 new part (same as 10305). However in both cases they could make use of all the new printed parts in 10305 and make more different minifigs etc instead