Are Clone Lego Brands bad for LEGO?

[The Steward]

Are Clone Lego Brands bad for LEGO (the company).

Okay first off lets define clone Brand:

I wouldn't count things like Brick Arms as Clone Brands. Because Brick Arms isn't trying to BE or Pass of as Lego, they are doing their own thing making fancy cool weapon things.

I'm not sure if 'Mega Bloks' counts, recently they have been trying to be like Lego, but I was a huge fan of the Pirate line they had for a while, but now it's kinda a Lego rip off.

Things like bom bom bricks and all those weird little clone brands you see on Ebay.

So what my main question is, does/how do Clone Brands hurt LEGO? Do things like Brick Arms, Brick Forge etc. also hurt LEGO.

I know since the Clone brands are cheap completely un-durable plastic so other than maybe making people thinking LEGO isn't durable do clone brands do anything to LEGO?

[Robianco]

Lego itself is a clone brand if you want to label them that way.

Mega bloks isn't a clone brand. Kreo isn't a clone brand. Many other brick and stud based manufacturers aren't clone brands... They're competitors... Each to a different level but each with their own products and licenses.

I'm not sure if you're also including Chinese bootleg brands in this? They clone Lego products but don't brand themselves as Lego... Much like the mainstream competitors don't. I'll add that several of the bootleg brands actually have quite good plastic quality... And no... The plastic or the print isn't poisonous in any way and won't eat your children. If you weren't including these brands then best they're kept out of the conversation

I think you'd have to be a special kind of dim to buy a product then label all products in that genre from that one experience... I'm not sure why someone would buy a Mega Bloks set, not like it then think Lego is crap... Or vice versa.

Competition is good for Lego. They can't be the only brick toy in the world with every license available. Diversity and choice is needed for a healthy market.

I'll also add that Brick Warriors, Brick Forge etc simply supply accessories for brick system toys, primarily Lego of course but compatible with others. Not damaging in any way... Merely enhancing.

[THERIZE]

I. Don't know where but didn't one of the Railbricks Magazines have an interview with a designer that works for LEGO who said something about custom LEGO parts? Don't know which one.

[Heppeng]

Well since Lego is the biggest toy manufacturer in the world and despite that still cannot keep up with demand, no clone brand is likely to have any noticeable effect on Lego, let alone something bad.

[MAB]

I'd say Mega bloks and Kreo are clones (just as lego was originally) as they make similar parts to be compatible with each other. Neither of these companies pretend to be lego. Brickforge and BrickWarriors also make compatible parts but they are Customs (to me). I don't think either of these two types hurt lego. We need lego to have competition from major manufacturers. Without MB, lego wouldn't need to keep on it's game (and it is slipping a bit in quality as it is, but riding high on popularity at the moment). BF and BW don't harm lego at all. They are such small scale and make things that lego don't. They get hurt when lego start making things that they specialise in.

Then there are the fakes - I dout these have much impact on lego. If they did, then lego would do something about it. But they don't seem to care when an event that they are present at also has stalls selling copies of lego minifigures. They are sold, but I imagine many of the sales go to people that weren't going to buy the lego set anyway.

[The Steward]

Yes Brick Forge and Brick Arms aren't clone brands because they aren't trying to be like LEGO. But the rip offs on places like Ebay, Do those hurt LEGO?

[large88]

It is somewhat difficult to know if they are "hurting" Lego. We dont know their exact markets and we dont have any specific sales info from them or Lego. We would need to know specific sales info over a period of time from a specific location that sells bot Lego and Clone and then determine if Lego sales have been affected since the introduction of the Clone in that area or store.

Lego will never share this info and neither will the Clone.

Only an independent store owner could help us out here...

Edited December 10, 2015 by large88

[dr_spock]

I think it bothers them enough to put out a Fair Play brochure to educate. It even features a screen shot of Eurobricks.

[large88]

Thanks dr_spock that is an interesting read. I hoped to read more about their actions taken against cloning and copying. Still it does imply that Lego is at te very least somewhat annoyed by all the cloning and copying.

Edited December 10, 2015 by large88

[Pimbo]

I think it bothers them enough to put out a Fair Play brochure to educate. It even features a screen shot of Eurobricks.

Interesting read indeed. The examples shown of some Chinese copied sets are just plain scary, and for some reason the indicated age range on those products is lower than on the official Lego sets

One problem pointed out in this brochure is kids receiving inferior brand bricks, noticing the lack of quality, and thus altering their opinion of building bricks in general. Although I've noticed my little 7yo nephew picking out clone brand bricks in his huge pile of bricks without a problem, but younger kids might not be able differentiate.

Fortunately, knockoff and/or clone brands aren't widely available in retail stores over here

Edited December 10, 2015 by Pimbo

[Sven F]

Yes, I think it hurts LEGO. And the most affected are newcomers to the toy. People who buy a cheaper "alternative" thinking these things are all the same, and then being thrown off the whole thing because they think the whole system is at fault.

I don't understand the constant excuses for MB being a fair competitor because they "do their own thing" Where is this "own thing"? If you mean the themes and licences, then yes, they mostly keep to their own, but licences come and go. Why do they need to copy brick designs? Every brick you use had to be engineered and researched how it can best compliment other elements and this is something clone brands STEAL and use as public domain. That may be fair play in the corporate world, but it's dirty and calls for extreme lack of respect from me.

[Robianco]

I don't think they'll ever be available at retail stores here in the UK either.

I see the discussion has indeed moved from whether it's Mega Bloks, Kreo etc hurting Lego and is actually down to the Chinese bootleggers.

If we look that the main market for these is the far east... which also happens to be Lego's fastest growing market... it can't be doing too much damage.

I dare say that there are occasions whereby people move onto the aspirational brand that is Lego from being introduced from cheaper, and basically inferior sets, from the bootleggers.

I must admit that I've never seen a single figure or brick or set which has been branded as Lego that wasn't. They're all clearly branded as something else.

Let's face it... it you bought a watch on a market stall that had the name 'Omiga' that was £20 and ended up stopping after a day or two you're not going to suddenly think that a £2500 Omega is crap are you? I don't buy the argument that people buy things branded by a chinese knock off, massively reduced and think it's genuine Lego.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Robianco

[HawkLord]

Like with any merchandise that can be "knocked-off", like clothes, purses, collectibles, etc, people will always want the original, official version more. That and Lego's natural name brand recognition makes me believe that clone brands will never really impact Lego enough to damage them. By definition, clone brands copy what Lego has already done, so to truly be a threat, they would have to start designing and manufacturing their own material. The R&D alone would cut into their profit way too much - it's easier for them to be parasites.

[Pimbo]

...

Let's face it... it you bought a watch on a market stall that had the name 'Omiga' that was £20 and ended up stopping after a day or two you're not going to suddenly think that a £2500 Omega is crap are you? I don't buy the argument that people buy things branded by a chinese knock off, massively reduced and think it's genuine Lego.

You and I might not, but a child might.

[Robianco]

You and I might not, but a child might.

How many children go out alone to buy a toy?

[Pimbo]

My point is, if kids play with bad quality bricks, they might consider building a bad experience and they may be tempted to completely disregard any type of building bricks, and pick up a nerf-blaster or 3ds instead.

[legoguy1984]

In our area where I stay, most of the people there are in a lower income group and therefore don't have lots of extra money to spend on luxury items such as Lego. The local Reggies (part of the Toys R Us group) sent all lego stock to their other branches as sales were bad. Now they stock Benboa, Megablocks and other cheaper competitive brands. I don't think this has hurt Lego as a company. As other Reggies stores in other areas will continue to sell Lego but it does make it harder for me when I need my fix. Maybe Lego could learn from these other companies or they might end up pricing themselves out of the mainstream markets.

[The Steward]

How many children go out alone to buy a toy?

Me and my brother used to walk to the store near where we lived when ever we had the cash.

In our area where I stay, most of the people there are in a lower income group and therefore don't have lots of extra money to spend on luxury items such as Lego. The local Reggies (part of the Toys R Us group) sent all lego stock to their other branches as sales were bad. Now they stock Benboa, Megablocks and other cheaper competitive brands. I don't think this has hurt Lego as a company. As other Reggies stores in other areas will continue to sell Lego but it does make it harder for me when I need my fix. Maybe Lego could learn from these other companies or they might end up pricing themselves out of the mainstream markets.

Lego has to keep their prices relatively high to keep the quality the way it is. Plastic isn't free for them to get melt mold and ship.

[Robianco]

Me and my brother used to walk to the store near where we lived when ever we had the cash.

My point is that if you're out buying toys on your own then you should be old enough to differentiate from one toy to another.

The vast majority of kids getting toys are with parents who help them make a decision and invariably carry the cash. By the time you get to the store you'll already know of the financial position you are in and what kind of toy you can afford.

People make out like kids are wondering into stores own their own with a pocket of cash and there's a guy behind a counter telling them that it's all legit Lego and just ignore the logo on the front. It doesn't happen. The bootlegs are almost entirely far eastern market stall fodder and just a couple of stalls away from the £15 Louis Vuitton bags and the £20 iPads.

The quality of plastic and printing of some bootleg figures is actually comparable to Lego... People just tend to show the absolute abhorrent crap that is also being put out as a sign of what 'bootlegs' look like. The plastic on the better brand's bricks is like the plastic used by Mega Bloks a few years ago... it's not the best building experience but it's probably not the worst either. It's really the design of some of their own unique items that lets them down.... but when you put it all together it's just not Lego quality and never will be. But then again it's not got a Lego logo on it so it's pretty clear it's not Lego.

[dr_spock]

I think most people are smart enough to know the difference between buying the real thing versus a clone. It is no different than buying OEM car parts versus aftermarket parts. Depending on your personal and financial situation you may opt for one or the other. The important thing is have a choice. A monopoly is bad for the consumers' pocket book but good for the owners and share holders.

How many children go out alone to buy a toy?

I used to and nobody called the police on my Mother back then.

Interesting read indeed. The examples shown of some Chinese copied sets are just plain scary, and for some reason the indicated age range on those products is lower than on the official Lego sets

One problem pointed out in this brochure is kids receiving inferior brand bricks, noticing the lack of quality, and thus altering their opinion of building bricks in general. Although I've noticed my little 7yo nephew picking out clone brand bricks in his huge pile of bricks without a problem, but younger kids might not be able differentiate.

Fortunately, knockoff and/or clone brands aren't widely available in retail stores over here

I think the EU has laws regarding confiscation of counterfeit good by country customs. If it gets passed customs, the police can still raid the store selling counterfeit goods.

The LEGO Movie says the age is just a suggestion. It's up to you as the parent to determine if your child is ready for a certain toy or not. Some kids can be a lot smarter than we give them credit for.

[Robianco]

I used to and nobody called the police on my Mother back then.

Canada is just that kind of place! ;)

[The Steward]

I've never seen clone brands in large stores, Kroger, Fred Meyer, Walmart, etc. I've only really seen them on places like Ebay. I know no kids are on Ebay. Unless they know their parents Pay Pal...

And on Ebay if you read the product descriptions it will say some where that's it's not LEGO, so on Ebay it's really only idiots who don't read the fine print being taken unawares.

[fred67]

Hmmm... reading the Fair Play Brochure. First of all, I like how they glace over the history of LEGO and it not being an original product to begin with. OK, you added the tube, congratulations... that was almost 60 years ago, and you think the patent should last that long? I guess not - most competitors use tubes, but why do they then think they have special protection on the 2x4 brick with tubes? The trademark on the minifigure is understandable, but the 2x4 brick?

I also look at the panasonic ad, and have to ask them to prove it's LEGO.

I understand their concerns, but as long as it's not called "LEGO," it's almost always "fair play." MB and Kre-O are prime examples. The "clone" brands that are actually copying LEGO sets and packaging to try to look like LEGO might be a concern, but they are casting a pretty broad net.

In fact, if you wrote a book of reviews of LEGO sets and wanted to include pictures (particularly including minifigures and 2x4 bricks), they're claiming you have to have their permission.... no, I really don't think you do. When you buy a set, you're not constricted by any particular special license.... you might not be entitled to make a whole picture book out of it, but some percentage is fair use.

Lego has to keep their prices relatively high to keep the quality the way it is. Plastic isn't free for them to get melt mold and ship.

No, but it doesn't cost much more (*) for them than it does other companies. TLG can charge whatever they want for products, but I can't stand when people try to claim it's for some magnanimous reason like better quality plastic - TLG is now the biggest toy company in the world and their profit growth has exceeded their sales growth almost every year for the past decade. That means higher average profit margins across the line. Period. They are free to do it - I'm a capitalist, they're a capitalist company, and they can charge what they want to maximize their profits - but make no mistake that the high prices are purely motivated by profit.

(*) It's debatable that they use a "higher quality" plastic than clones, but any additional cost is going to be a tiny fraction over MB or other major brands. In the end, it's still just ABS plastic.

Edited December 10, 2015 by fred67

[bonox]

The IP is mor elikely to be in the mould design than the plastic, together with operating criteria to control surface finish, shrinkage and a host of other manufacturing issues.

The presence of a significant number of knockoffs/alternatives that are purported to be compatible or interchangable but don't have the same mechanical fit tolerances is what will lead to problems for TLG because of the "market for lemons" philosophy. While TLG remain hugely dominant, they won't see a huge impact from some people getting upset with poor quality 'lego' and then dismissing it entirely, but as more and more market is taken by poor substitutes, the buyers start to see all lego as poor quality and so devalue the geniune stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons

On the other hand, if the alternatives are of equal quality and performance to the original, none of this applies and you're back to dividing corporate profits among an equal or growing pool of buyers rather than a diminishing one.

[fred67]

The IP is mor elikely to be in the mould design than the plastic, together with operating criteria to control surface finish, shrinkage and a host of other manufacturing issues.

Except patents for the bricks and techniques themselves have long since expired, all TLG has right now, aside from any NEW patents, are trademarks. They can't trademark the brick. They've successfully defended the trademark for the minifigure in some countries.