A simple way to make 9v metal track

[SteveB]

A little history: I was about to pull the trigger on the altBricks track. I literally had the content uploaded to Kick Starter but needed to tie up some loose ends before posting and then, BAM, the ME KS project was public. But alas still no metal track... I considered releasing the altBricks version at the same time but worried that the ME KS project already tapped the funds of the LEGO train enthusiasts.

I figured out a way to make metal and plastic track relatively simple in one mold for all 4 curves (or 3 curves and 1 straight). It's a one piece track sections (like LEGO track) that is 100% connector compatible to LEGO track. The beauty of the altBricks system is that one simple machining process on industry standard HO nickle silver rail satisfies any radius curve or straight length.

I made prototypes, a half dozen of these straight tracks and a 1/4 circle R88 (I think 8 segments) using ME rails and they all work fantastically. I would continue to do this for my whole home layout but its a big pain in the butt to retro-fit plastic rails and you tend to mess up 1 out of 6 times destroying the plastic track.

The question now is do I make this process public domain? If so, I hope that if someone runs with the idea they pay me 3 full circles of each radius and some straights as royalty :-)

Or should I do a Kick Starter project and have altBricks do this?

A better idea is if the ME guys would agree to talk with me, they are the most logical company to do this and this solution can work in their system too. And my royalty seems pretty reasonable. :-)

Your thoughts?

Thanks,

SteveB

altBricks

[fred67]

Honestly, I'd try to go the "nice" route and talk to ME first, but I'm guessing they're probably too preoccupied with fulfilling their orders and getting product to sell through their website to think about changing what they've come up with for something new. But I think you should throw it out there, first.

Second, if they're not game, go ahead and do a kickstarter... what can it hurt? The worst that happens is not enough people pledge, and so you don't do it... and you're in the same boat you're in now, nothing lost, really. If you do it, learn from them - a huge portion of backers reneged on paying, which is one of their problems - the campaign succeeded, yet they didn't get the money they needed, had to do a backerkit project, blah blah blah, yada yada yada, here we are, a year later, with no metal rail (and a lot of plastic buyers complaining they didn't get theirs).

Not to sound to negative - I fully expect the metal rail, and if I could smack somebody it would be the people who backed out. I know ME is doing what they can to make everybody happy.

EDIT: BTW, I've ordered a few things from altBricks, and you've got a lot of interesting things... in case readers didn't know, they should check it out. It's like brickforge or brickarms for people that want to build trees and bridges instead of armies.

Edited November 10, 2015 by fred67

[SteveB]

HI All,

I just wanted to send an update and let everyone know that I just had a great conversation with Mike and Eric from ME Models and we are going to work together on this solution. It's not my place to comment on the current ME Models Kickstarter project, Mike says he will follow-up on this thread. Mike and I are just happy that we had a good first call and that this metal track concept may help further the LEGO train hobby; which is both our goal.

And thanks Fred for the kind review!

Thanks

SteveB

altBricks

Edited November 11, 2015 by SteveB

[mike44]

I hope all is well with everyone,

As Steve has said we had a nice conversation. Ideas take time to develop. As for where ME stands, we are currently working to finish the manufacturing process of our metal rails. If anyone has specific questions please e-mail us directly at

info@me-models.com

Regards,

MIke

ME Models

[HoMa]

Steve, good to read about the action you took concerning metal track. It seems that there are still enough train folks out there who will run trains the "9 Volt Way".

But somewhere here on eurobricks was a tutorial how to use the motor from the PF train motor in a 9 Volt train motor housing. This might becomes important when the old 9 Volt motors are used more often on various metal radii (and long switches).

Maybe contact Michael Gale (http://l-gauge.org/wiki/index.php?title=L-Gauge:About) for further cooperation, especially track geometry for switches ... but step by step ... I really would love to see metal track for both my 9 Volt and PF trains.

All the best,

Holger

[TF Twitch]

Not to take away from the original conversation, but I looked on the altBricks website and saw narrow-gauge straight tracks. Are there any curves in development? I have always wanted to make a small narrow-gauge train.

[SteveB]

Steve, good to read about the action you took concerning metal track. It seems that there are still enough train folks out there who will run trains the "9 Volt Way".

But somewhere here on eurobricks was a tutorial how to use the motor from the PF train motor in a 9 Volt train motor housing. This might becomes important when the old 9 Volt motors are used more often on various metal radii (and long switches).

Maybe contact Michael Gale (http://l-gauge.org/w...e=L-Gauge:About) for further cooperation, especially track geometry for switches ... but step by step ... I really would love to see metal track for both my 9 Volt and PF trains.

All the best,

Holger

Hey Holger!

Great to hear from you!!! Agreed that the track is only one piece of the "bring-back-9v" puzzle. I think the most efficient way to bring back 9v is a hybrid solution. When I say efficient I mean cost effective to manufacture and price for the customers. Here's what I envision and this is built on several great works done by several fans that have posted on this forum in the past.

1) Create an insulated metal wheel-set that snaps into the existing LEGO wheel holder.

2) Create electrical wipers that work with the metal wheel-set in the existing LEGO wheel holder with no LEGO modification required.

3) Create a battery box with a internal LiPo or 9v pigtail for an external 9v NiMH battery, that the electrical wipers charge and simultaneously supply clean pass-thru power. This provides continuous power even with noisy wipers / dirty metal track and on plastic track. Include a Power Function connector pigtail to connect to the Pf receiver.

4) Optionally create a very small form factor Bluetootk LE Pf receiver. Include two Power Function connector pigtails to connect to the Pf train or other motors and lights. I think $60 ea for a SBrick is too expensive when you want 5 to 10 of them.

There are plenty of good LEGO motor solutions including the Pf train motor. I believe the efficiency of this motor rated much higher than the original 9v motor <Philo's Page>. Both the battery box and BtLE box should be at most 2 studs wide. I would also not use Power Function connectors like SBrick. It makes the containers much bigger than they need to be and the pigtail offers greater flexibility.

Thanks for the pointer... Michael and I have met several times at BrickFete in Toronto and have talked about this topic. But a great reminder to swing back around and pick up on that conversation!

SteveB

[zephyr1934]

Hey Steve,

I love the idea and applaud the potential collaboration with ME. I hope it will be profitable for both parties and my 9v steam engines would love some R88 action (they are pretty jealous of my PF trains on the ME track). Though even with collaboration, doing a Kickstarter would be a great way to make sure that there is sufficient market demand out there.

[SteveB]

Hi All,

An update. I decided to make a video of how to make this style track. In this video shows the modified ME-Rail R88... Here's the video link.

BTW Mike, Eric and I are working thru the technical details and its looking positive. This method works for any radius or length track and there is only one fixed tooling cost so it is a really flexible manufacturing process.

When I looked into making track the same method as LEGO I found that in addition to the track mold (~$24k), each rail (cause they are different radii) required a stamping "tool" and a crimping "tool", each about $35k. So for each radius track segment the startup cost is about $100k... that's why no one has done it. The design work is the relative easy step. Keeping startup and manufacturing cost low is the trick.

For really low numbers 3D printing + Tin plated copper tape *might* be a good alternative. Especially for switches. When I think about the volume of sales it's like 30:1 track segments to switches. :-(

Thanks,

SteveB

[HoMa]

Hi Steve,

looks like a really straight forward method to to get metal rails. Can you also upload some pics showing the comparrison between standard ME rails and the modification? And what kind of metal is this? Is there an online resource to get this kind of metal?

Greets,

Holger

[dr_spock]

Clever use of HO scale code 100 nickel silvered rail.

[zephyr1934]

Sheer brilliance, excellent work, and a great start! I do see three issues that are not the end of the world but would probably need to be addressed.

The simplest of the three issues is making power connections from the controller without using any 9v track; but maybe that is okay. Either a user would be mixing track anyway and could use the lego power line or they are proficient enough that they could solder a connection on their own.

Next is the power connection between rail segments. Regular 9v track has a lot of resistance at the rail joints, enough that on the far side of a 10'x10' loop (away from the power drop) my heavy trains will slow or stall. Looking at this design, I suspect there will be more resistance at the rail joints. At the point of connection between rails on 9v track the metal strip has a clever tab on the end that bends outward ever so slightly towards the next rail, thus providing a spring force to ensure the two rails are touching. The previous version of the ME metal rails did not have this feature and thus, had poor conductivity across rail joints. Your example has a single ME rail section connecting to 9v track on either end (with their spring connections). I would suggest building a few more sections of metalized ME and getting out an ohm meter to measure the resistance across several joints to see how it compares to 9v track. Perhaps keeping a little more of the O-gauge rail (cutting it to 2/3 width instead of 1/2) would be sufficient to replicate the spring action, but that would then also reproduce the "rail climbing" problem of 9v curves. So another potential solution is figuring out some form of rail connector on the underside or outside of the O-gauge rail, e.g., notching out the ME rail slightly differently or ???

But the biggest issue I see with this design is the nature of the ME track connectors. The ME rails that I have do not have the same clutch as lego. So the ties fall off as easily (perhaps even more easily) than blue era tracks. The blue era tracks do not have any lateral force at the track connections while the 9v/PF/ME tracks do. I'm not sure how this point could easily be fixed without either molding the ties to the rails (like PF) or gluing the end connectors to the ME rails (which I am contemplating doing anyway with my ME track). At any rate, this weak point of connection could also exasperate the previous issue of the conductivity at rail joints.

And in any event, don't get my critical assessment wrong, I love what the ME wide radius curves have done and opened up. As noted above, even 9v rails have problems. I am just trying to provide feedback to ensure that whatever you produce will be top notch.

[legoman666]

This looks easy enough to do at home with a jig and a router/dremel. I'll give it a shot.

[SteveB]

Hi Benn/All,

Thanks for the analysis! To get this right we should all pitch in. EVERYONE please comment with constructive and harsh critiques. Better to air the issues now so they can be addressed!

Some design constraints (to get started):

1. Requires to be made via a simple "clam shell" (2 piece) mold to hold costs down

2. No electrical "clips" or rail joiners required

3. No special "tooling" required to assemble

4. Low resistance, low oxidation rail material

5. Do not have a higher segment to segment electrical resistance than the LEGO Track

Let me address your questions and suggest some more topics to explore.

1) Power Lead Connectors: I think a high percentage of folks could use existing connectors, but to grow past the original 9v owners a power connection method is needed. Along each plastic rail at 1/3 in from both ends a hole at the bottom of the slot will be open all the way through the plastic rail about 1/4" long. This would allow special track segments to be assembled with a wire lead that is soldered to the bottom of the metal rail and pass through the bottom of the plastic rail. There are some productization options for the other end of the wire leads, but that can be worked out later. I assume that non-LEGO controllers will be in the mix.

2) Electrical Connection Between Rail Segments: The plastic rail will bend inward at the point of connection between rails thus providing the spring action. To avoid the rail climbing issue only ½ the rail material can be used on each end. Note: “rail climbing” is lessened with the increase in radius, so we have that going for us! J

I have several sections of modified plastic LEGO track using this technique. I will measure the resistance across several joints. Good idea!

3) ME Rail Clutch Power: Agreed, it’s not good. I understand that ME is selling rail segments pre-glued. My assumption is that this new metal version rail would be sold this way. The bend at the end of the plastic rail (see #2) will create torque on the joint with the ties and will weaken that connection hence weakening the electrical connection. Plus the outer rails are also subject to the torque of the train pasting over. It’s obvious why LEGO chose to add rail clips to the 12.5v “sleepers”.

4) The height of the new slotted plastic rail needs to be reduced by the inserted metal rail “Base Height” so the tops align.

5) NEED HELP HERE: The slot width in the plastic rail somehow needs to capture (a. perpendicular to the slot and b. the same direction as the slot so it doesn’t slide) the metal “Rail Head” without requiring a complex mold. IDEAS: A very small wrap-around tip at the ends of the plastic rail can capture the metal rail solving the "b." sliding issue, but would require a more precise, yet do-able, metal rail length cut. To address "a." a couple “tight” spots inside the slot, perhaps co-located where the holes that go all the way through bottom of the slot (see #1). In fact that might address "b." also. But what is "tight"? I don't have the ABS flex index as hand. Is there some ABS engineers out there that can suggest what a tight fit is?

Steve

[dr_spock]

Could the metal rail not be Kragle (glued) to the plastic rail to keep it in place? Adhesives might be a simpler solution to complex mold and metal work. You could drill holes or make indentations in the metal rail and have tabs molded in the plastic rail to click in the hold the metal rail.

[SteveB]

How to make these rails at home...

(BTW I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE IF YOU CUT YOUR FINGER OFF!!!!)

The prototype making was a long journey! Rotary tools like Dermal and table routers go too fast and melt the plastic even with a 1mm tip! I really learned about "speeds and feeds" in this endeavor!

I finally ended up with a low cost Drill Press (60238) from Harbor fright $60 with a table fence (96395) $35, use coupons! I used a 1.5" dia 1mm kerf blade (67224) $9 and set the saw at the slowest speed. I set up the fence so that I could slide straight LEGO plastic track through with the top rail aligned with the blade. You have to make 2 passes, one for each rail. I destroyed about 1 of 4 tracks. Also the table fence had to be slightly modified, its kinda crappy, like all HF stuff is.

To make curves is a PITA (pain in the megablocks). I was happy when I came up with the idea of forcing the ME rails straight in a gig made of LEGO. I aligned the gig with the cutting blade and ran the gig through holding the plastic rail straight. What's nice is it works for all radii. I have 1/4 loop of R88 cut... it was a PITA and I destroyed several rails.

I cut the code 100 metal rail with a micro table saw (from Harbor Freight) with a cutting wheel. I hand file the ends usually with the metal rail in the plastic track so it's steadied.

If I had a desktop milling machine (not even CNC) with really slow rotation speeds I might not have destroyed as many. But this is really all a prototype for molded version.

Good luck!

Steve

Thanks

Steve

Could the metal rail not be Kragle (glued) to the plastic rail to keep it in place? Adhesives might be a simpler solution to complex mold and metal work. You could drill holes or make indentations in the metal rail and have tabs molded in the plastic rail to click in the hold the metal rail.

Great idea! In fact I did glue one set of metal rails into a straight plastic LEGO track segment prototype and it worked. I was thinking that a clean way to quickly glue would be from the bottom via the "wire holes" I mentioned in #1. I'm just thinking about how to reduce the assembly steps and required materials (glue).

Steve

Edited December 4, 2015 by SteveB

[zephyr1934]

Good to hear that you are already thinking about these things...

3) ME Rail Clutch Power: Agreed, it’s not good. I understand that ME is selling rail segments pre-glued. My assumption is that this new metal version rail would be sold this way.

I would assume that a pre-glued version would be a lot more labor and still not as strong as a single piece unit. There are a lot of great color combinations in the ME selection and certainly being free of the two wide ties is attractive in concept, both good reasons to keep the ties separate. But I wonder, If it is going to be a new set of molds, wouldn't a single piece unit just be a lot easier to produce and distribute? If so, the other question that would need to be asked is what the consumers would prefer. I'm sure some like wouldn't care (or even prefer a single piece) while others would prefer separate rails. Of course I would probably buy it either way.

[Lazarus]

wow nice work, I think i need to test this idea before i jump into my code 250 rail making.

I have ample PF track around i can mess up and also code 100 HO track will make up a jig to cut the slot out.

But I would love these to me in production in the next 6-12 months as it would save me heaps of time on making my own stuff.

I have still not bought any ME rails due to there still being no 9v there and have been waiting and waiting for it to come.

This idea might be able to short cut it.

[coaster]

I would assume that a pre-glued version would be a lot more labor and still not as strong as a single piece unit. There are a lot of great color combinations in the ME selection and certainly being free of the two wide ties is attractive in concept, both good reasons to keep the ties separate. But I wonder, If it is going to be a new set of molds, wouldn't a single piece unit just be a lot easier to produce and distribute? If so, the other question that would need to be asked is what the consumers would prefer. I'm sure some like wouldn't care (or even prefer a single piece) while others would prefer separate rails. Of course I would probably buy it either way.

I've talked to Steve separately on this, and I'm going to take this approach as well, but keep it strictly to a single complete piece (no assembly required on your part). This is a really clean solution, and if designed right, should consist of a single piece base into which the rails snap into place, so the minimum 3 pieces. I've started sketching it out, and it should lend itself to nice clean switch design too. Steve doesn't seem to mind who does these, and his fee is more than reasonable. It also doesn't require a huge change to what I've been working on so far, so I think I could have prototypes right after the new year.

[garethjellis]

Steve, This is an exciting prospect, Is there enough exposed side of the HO rail for the 9v motors to pick up from? (Lego 9v motors pick up from the side of the rail and not the top of the rail)

[SteveB]

The metal rail is upside down. The base of the code 100 is about the same width of the plastic rail. you can see the train running over it in the video (black first frame) on www.flickr.com/photos/66978286@N00/. Recall the motor wheel geometry is such that it rides on the inside corner of the track.

SteveB

Edited December 7, 2015 by SteveB

[Captain Green Hair]

That is genious! I look forward to large radius metal curves that are compatible with the Lego system.

I thought ME had dropped it, but I'm really glad you are taking on this venture!

[legoman666]

I gave it a shot in my garage with a dremel and a little jig I whipped up real quick. Pretty easy to do. Any minor imperfections are invisible once the rail is in place.

These are both the inner and outer radii of a ME Models R56 curve, which is the tightest curve that this would have to work on. The nickle silver rail has no problems taking to the bend.

Edited December 28, 2015 by legoman666

[LEGO Train 12 Volts]

I can say just a big "WOW"! :wub:

[Dan-147]

I gave it a shot in my garage with a dremel and a little jig I whipped up real quick. Pretty easy to do. Any minor imperfections are invisible once the rail is in place.

Any chance that you post a picture of your jig and Dremel setup? I'd be very interested in replicating your efforts.

Thanks.

Dan-147