BrickJagger

Future Castle Sets?

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8 minutes ago, MAB said:

I guess everyone sets there Castle themes in different ages. I set mine around English civil war times, and also use Musketeers, Conquistadors, etc. for their clothes and armour. Plus the morionĀ helmet for pikemen and so on.

That's fair enough. I guess my own interests lie more in the traditional fantasy aesthetic, as well as the period surrounding the Angevin Empire, and this tends to mesh with the sort of parts you get in a Castle theme - so it's easy for me to go along with that.

Even then, I'd argue that the Professor Sprout torso is too modern (I don't have the others to hand right now to compare) - her coat looks too modern imo.

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54 minutes ago, Alexandrina said:

I don't think they're mutually exclusive. Harry Potter is based on films set in the relative modern-day, with some locations being a castle. There's no reason there can't also be a Castle theme.

You'd think that, especially since Harry Potter and Castle releases have overlapped several times before, but I remember that TLG designers hinted that it was unlikely there would be a Castle theme during the current iteration of HP. I suppose that the thinking is that Harry Potter has fantasy elements and a castle so it's a suitable replacement, but that's not really the case. I'm personally not going to spend $100 on a parts pack, especially since I don't build large MOCs.

That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if the two Castle releases this year are Lego's way of testing the waters for a full return. As someone else suggested, if Castle comes back it could very well be evergreen again and Lego is taking time to figure out the logistics of yearly releases. Harry Potter is in its fourth year and has just about wrapped up sets from the films, so it's getting a bit long in the tooth. I personally expect the Fantastic Beasts series to be cancelled due to production issues and poor performance as well, and Lego might see an opening, but that's just me.

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2 minutes ago, BrickJagger said:

You'd think that, especially since Harry Potter and Castle releases have overlapped several times before, but I remember that TLG designers hinted that it was unlikely there would be a Castle theme during the current iteration of HP. I suppose that the thinking is that Harry Potter has fantasy elements and a castle so it's a suitable replacement, but that's not really the case.

As AFOLs, we see a difference between HP and Castle, and between SW and Space. But I suspect that LEGO has done its market research and found through cluster analysis that among kids and adults buying for kids, HP/Castle is one group and SW/Space another. While AFOLs are growing in numbers, kids are still by far the dominant demographic. LEGO has to respect that. So we might see the odd Castle or Space relatedĀ set now and again (e.g. the forthcoming Castle Creator 3-in-1), but full blown Castle or Space ranges seem unlikely as long as LEGO does HP and SW respectively.

Ā 

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20 hours ago, Alexandrina said:

My point is that the original Lion Knights figure is not some powerhouse icon of Lego Castle. The Kingdoms minifigures, beyond being knights with a lion as heraldry, aren't really the same thing. And if I might make an assumption, your son - as the son of an AFOL - is going to have a different experience growing up to the average kid whose parents maybe had some Lego as kids and chucked it out.Ā 

You say yourself that you would welcome an update to any faction. That suggests that it's not the Lion Knights specifically that need to be remade ASAP.Ā 

I guess I'm missing your point but Lion Knights are Lion Knights to me it doesn't matter if they are the same as the original it just gives greater variety to my army.Ā  What I'm saying is if you look at lego or any castle/fantasy based video games there is usually a knight dressed in some kind of lion armor or lion heraldry.Ā  So kids, teens and adults see a lot of lion knights when they play the games.Ā  It is a pretty common theme.Ā Ā 

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I have used Dumbeldore.Ā  And I haveĀ hid Ron, Hermione, and Harry in my display withĀ another 1500 castle figures just to see if the publicĀ notices them.Ā  A few people find them.Ā  But they are the old yellow versions of the figs sitting in a crowd, so most casual LEGO fans might notĀ recognize them at this point.Ā  I suppose if I put them together in a group people would notice them moreĀ frequently.Ā Ā 

But I don't think in general the HP figures help me out much in a castle layout.Ā  Especially now that they are fleshies.

Ā 

I like most of the lions.Ā  However, the lions from Kingdoms are just incredible.Ā  The heraldry, the lions on the armor pieces, the shields, and the barding...Ā  The red and white checker pattern.Ā  I loveĀ that faction!

Just out of curiosity, If the 3 in 1 is coming out in June when typically will we see pictures?Ā Ā 

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imo Lego should revamp themes and waves and make everything thats historic a sub-theme but with an overarching "plot".Ā 

Like these years castle sets, ideas and creator - both black falcons. with that in mind they could make the next medieval ideas set follow up on that by keeping the falcons, updating them, adding another faction etc. and also release 3-1 creator sets with the castle sub-theme. That way it could be an ongoing thing with new sets every year and not bound by waves which get cancelled if unsuccessful.Ā 

Ā 

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1 minute ago, Poco Lypso said:

Ā with that in mind they could make the next medieval ideas set follow up on that by keeping the falcons,

I'm not sure they will do another medieval theme IDEAS set. There were a number of ones that reached review similar to the fishing store, by the same designer, and all failed to pass. If they want to do more adult aimed medieval sets, I imagine they will do them outside of IDEAS.

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8 hours ago, BrickJagger said:

That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if the two Castle releases this year are Lego's way of testing the waters for a full return. As someone else suggested, if Castle comes back it could very well be evergreen again and Lego is taking time to figure out the logistics of yearly releases. Harry Potter is in its fourth year and has just about wrapped up sets from the films, so it's getting a bit long in the tooth. I personally expect the Fantastic Beasts series to be cancelled due to production issues and poor performance as well, and Lego might see an opening, but that's just me.

The Harry Potter line has been very popular so far, and there have been rumours of it emulating Star Wars to be another evergreen Licenced theme. There are still a good few years in the theme in terms of potential as the final two films have not been touched yet, apart from one CMF figure, and there are plenty of gaps to fill with potentially great sets.Ā 

Fantastic Beasts had good sets based on bad films, IMO, no idea what will happen when the third one is released.Ā 

That said, I'd also love to see the return of Castle, almost as much as Pirates.Ā 

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59 minutes ago, MAB said:

I'm not sure they will do another medieval theme IDEAS set. There were a number of ones that reached review similar to the fishing store, by the same designer, and all failed to pass. If they want to do more adult aimed medieval sets, I imagine they will do them outside of IDEAS.

i guess they just dont want to release too many ideas sets within the same theme in a short period of time. but thats why I am saying they should rethink their business model.Ā 

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39 minutes ago, Poco Lypso said:

i guess they just dont want to release too many ideas sets within the same theme in a short period of time. but thats why I am saying they should rethink their business model.Ā 

NASA and Apollo 11 want a word with you

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8 hours ago, zoth33 said:

I guess I'm missing your ļ»æpoint ļ»æbut Lionļ»æ ļ»æKnightsļ»æ are Lion Knights to me it doesn't matter if theyļ»æ are the same as the original it just gives greater variety to my army.Ā  What I'm saying is if you look at lego or any castle/fantasy based video games there is usually a knight dressed in some kind of lion armor or lion heraldry.Ā  So kids, teens and adults see a lot of lion knights when they play the games.Ā  It is a pretty common theme.Ā Ā 

The thing is, having a different faction with shared heraldry can be good for army building (I personally wouldn't combine the Kingdoms knights with the Lion Knights but that's just me) but they are still different factions. The new Black Falcons are very clearly a modernised version of the old ones. The same hasn't happened for the Lion Knights, and they're not so iconic that they specifically need to be updated ASAP.Ā 

Lions are a common feature of heraldry - almost one of the default set. You can link them to the Plantagenets and the English kings of the High Middle Ages, and other places besides, so it's not surprising that they crop up a lot. That doesn't mean that the Lego faction known as 'Lion Knights' is similarly iconic.Ā 

In any case, there are plenty of heraldic animals Lego haven't really used yet. I'd like to see gryphons on the next faction.Ā 

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On 3/2/2021 at 2:00 AM, Poco Lypso said:

I would take the lion knight atm.Ā  The fact knights were available is true but doesnt have any bearing on present sets. In fact, lion knights would be so cool right now and if somebody just starts out with castle they have only 1 faction to go with atm.

Ā 

As somebody who has no castle currently and is planning on buying multiple of both of the new sets I can say that I would rather a civilian than another knight. I can make a castle set and village with civilian torsos and one factions knight torso, but without the civilians it is much harder for me to make the village surrounds. I am not too interested in making epic battles though to me the village is much more important.

If however it was a second type of knight I would attempt to buy a couple of dozen of them so I would have an opposing faction. So while I would prefer civilians, I would spend a lot more money on more knights.

As someone who only had one space set and one Fabuland set as a kid in the 80's (I had about 200 pieces of Lego in total for my childhood) I have no connection with any faction so I don't really care where the knights are from. Ideally I would like one faction and then something like Forestmen so that there is at least variance in the builds.

In any case I will be happy with any castle (except yellow ones) since I have been waiting for this since I started on Lego about 6 years ago.

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8 minutes ago, timemail said:

If however it was a second type of knight I would attempt to buy a couple of dozen of them so I would have an opposing faction. So while I would prefer civilians, I would spend a lot more money on more knights.

Lego, no doubt, have factored in people like you when planning what sets they'll produce. There's a reason they're using the Black Falcons again in the 3-in-1, and it's not because they think people will only want to have one faction of soldiers ever. It's probably better for everyone if Lego keep the Black Falcons up and add in a smattering of civilians, and give us a new faction when a new theme comes along - people who want civilians are happy, because they get to buy the set and get a new civilian; people who love Black Falcons are happy, because they get more Black Falcons; and people who want a new faction areĀ eventuallyĀ happy, because when their new faction comes out in a year or so's time they get to buy them easier. If Lego had put, say, Lion Knights in the 3-in-1, all it would do is mean neither Black Falcons or Lion Knights were easy to get hold of, because both would be permanently out of stock on Bricks & Pieces and in only one set each that costs over Ā£100.

As it stands, the Black Falcons will be in two sets, and it's easier to justify spending three figures on two different sets that happen to have figures you want than on the same set twiceĀ entirely because ofĀ the figures. The Lion Knights will have their time too. And both can come alongside civilians, to truly bolster the peasant armies.

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I personally wish they wouldn't rehash old factions at all.Ā  A nod here and there is fine.Ā  But, there are plenty of animals, weapons, and symbols that could be used for heraldry.Ā  There are also many color schemes that have not been used yet.Ā  When a new castle theme is released I hope it has new unique factions.Ā  I know people want to collect many of the old factions they missed out on.Ā  However, those factions are available.Ā  Sadly often at a high premium, but are available nonetheless.Ā  Any new release of lion knights will be a new faction anyway because they are not going to outright copy the old factions heraldry anyway.Ā  It will be new and updated.Ā Ā 

I know that 13 or so years ago when talking with a LEGO employee they shared that the focus groups of children really liked when castle had a faction of good guys and an obvious bad guy enemy instead of two opposing knight factions.Ā  That was why the crownie knights first fought against skeletons and then against the trolls.Ā  Note that they have carried that over in the action themes.Ā  Most bad guys aren't even based on humans at all.Ā Ā 

That is why I would expect any big castle release to include fantasy elements.Ā  This isn't strictly what I want, but if it makes castle sell so I can get more factions and sets over more years, I am all for it.Ā Ā 

I remember back to kingdoms and the fantasy era when the best way to build your armies was to buy a chess set.Ā  You could get knight minifigs for an average of $2.00 or under.Ā  Oh, what a wonderful time it was!Ā  That was a much better price than buying the blister packaged battle packs of minifigs that were much more expensive.Ā  But to be honest with you...Ā  I would take just about anything now.Ā  LEGO take my money!

Ā 

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I keep seeing the word 'knight' being used so liberally when what you're actually referring to is the livery, and the heraldry on it. There are significant reasons why lions get so much re-use in Lego heraldry, the main one is because it was so widely used that no claims can be madeĀ against Lego for its use by the current nobility.

The closest overlap of Lego lion heraldry that would make sense from a narrative perspective would be from Royal Knights (eg 1 & 2), to KKI Lions (eg 3), to Castle 2013 Lions (eg 4 & 5). I quite enjoy the 2013 lion heraldry.

What would probably sell the most to this crowd areĀ likely to be blister packs, and/or battle packs (like SW),Ā with modern updates ofĀ classic factions and new ones, as well as civilians. Even better would be Castle versions of the large people packs that City gets.Ā The occasional tournament set, with two of those factions facing offĀ and numerous spectators, would go over well too. The standard Castle structures Lego would produce as sets that would go into a wave are themselves less needed to our crowd, that can make informed decisions on the parts needed to build with, and go about acquiring them. If an AFOL needs some instructions for something, there are literally hundreds of sources.

The problem is that Lego doesn't see us as a large enough specific market, with a cohesiveĀ shared interest, to dedicate time and resources to appeal to directly.

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3 hours ago, timemail said:

As somebody who has no castle currently and is planning on buying multiple of both of the new sets I can say that I would rather a civilian than another knight. I can make a castle set and village with civilian torsos and one factions knight torso, but without the civilians it is much harder for me to make the village surrounds. I am not too interested in making epic battles though to me the village is much more important.

If however it was a second type of knight I would attempt to buy a couple of dozen of them so I would have an opposing faction. So while I would prefer civilians, I would spend a lot more money on more knights.

As someone who only had one space set and one Fabuland set as a kid in the 80's (I had about 200 pieces of Lego in total for my childhood) I have no connection with any faction so I don't really care where the knights are from. Ideally I would like one faction and then something like Forestmen so that there is at least variance in the builds.

In any case I will be happy with any castle (except yellow ones) since I have been waiting for this since I started on Lego about 6 years ago.

I must admit that I like the current design of the black falcons very much and am still conflicted about the number of knights I want to obtain. With civilians its much easier as you very often just need one copy - i mean, how many blacksmiths does a village need anyway :).Ā Ā 

I have been slacking with lego for the last 4 years. So much so that I completely missed out on the recent dumbledore and last years tournament knight. The blacksmith shop sort of rekindled my love for the medieval theme.

Ā 

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The latest Kingdom castle looked more like a square fortress because they're trying to copy that old 80s castle design. Those type of building design might be cool in 80s and early 90s but people these days simply not interested on square shape fortress that being labelled as castle . They need to come up with a much more interesting design.

Edited by Rattlebricks

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34 minutes ago, gedren_y said:

What would probably sell the most to this crowd areĀ likely to be blister packs, and/or battle packs (like SW),Ā with modern updates ofĀ classic factions and new ones, as well as civilians. Even better would be Castle versions of the large people packs that City gets.Ā The occasional tournament set, with two of those factions facing offĀ and numerous spectators, would go over well too. The standard Castle structures Lego would produce as sets that would go into a wave are themselves less needed to our crowd, that can make informed decisions on the parts needed to build with, and go about acquiring them. If an AFOL needs some instructions for something, there are literally hundreds of sources.

The problem is that Lego doesn't see us as a large enough specific market, with a cohesiveĀ shared interest, to dedicate time and resources to appeal to directly.

Presumably LEGO knows how well the blister packs sell when paired with normal Castle sets on the shelves, as they have released many such packs in the past. And yes,Ā LEGO doesn't see AFOLs as a large enough market to release just relevant minifigure packs. Plus their core business is selling bricks, hence theĀ presence of the structures they typically sell in boxes alongside theĀ minifigures.

27 minutes ago, Poco Lypso said:

i mean, how many blacksmiths does a village need anyway :).Ā Ā 

If the outfit is generic enough to also be used for a carpenter, builder, baker, and so on, more than just one.

10 minutes ago, Rattlebricks said:

The latest Kingdom castle looked more like a square fortress because they're trying to copy that old 80s castle design. Those type of building design might be cool in 80s and early 90s but people these days simply not interested on square shape fortress that being labelled as castle . They need to come up with a much more interesting design.

I don't think they were trying to copy their old designs, more that this is what many kids would think of as a castle. They wantĀ towers, a gate and/or portcullis, they want a large area inside the "castle" to play.Ā  So give a kid the choice between castle walls with some interior, or just a castle keep made from the same number of bricks, and I imagine many would go for the walls instead of the keep.Ā 

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I have well over aĀ hundredĀ blacksmiths.Ā  Granted they are different blacksmiths from several different sets.Ā  But they make up about aĀ quarterĀ of all of my medieval civilian minifigs.Ā  Ā They have been one of the cheapest medieval appropriate figs to get on Bricklink.Ā 

Like MAB said they look generally like any artisan with an apron.Ā  I have them working in a smithy, mint, barrel maker, candlestick maker, wagon/wheel maker, on a butcher, in a dairy, at a winery, and even on some farmers. A work apron is a pretty common accessory even to this day for a lot of occupations.Ā Ā I have about 20 blacksmithsĀ alone working inĀ a quarry with different heads, hair, hoods to make them look like individuals.Ā  I have had nothing but positive feedback and nobody has ever mentioned they look too much alike.Ā  People just think the quarry is cool to see.Ā 

I think castle will sell just fine when it isn't competing with other licensed themes that overlap.Ā  We here, obviously,Ā over analyze the whole situation.Ā  But then again, what else do we have to do?Ā  We are at TLGs mercy until the next release.Ā Ā 

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3 hours ago, Poco Lypso said:

I must admit that I like the current design of the black falcons very much and am still conflicted about the number of knights I want to obtain. With civilians its much easier as you very often just need one copy - i mean, how many blacksmiths does a village need anyway :).Ā 

Well, you have blacksmiths, and you have blacksmiths.

IĀ consider the Medieval Village blacksmith to be a down to earth blacksmith, taking care ofĀ cattle's hoof, and other iron utensils for daily use in a village or town setting.
The blacksmith of the Ideas platform looks more like an armourer to me. Which is why he has such a nice house. There's money to be made for a good armourer.

Edited by GeoBrick
Grammar edit

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32 minutes ago, GeoBrick said:

Well, you have blacksmiths, and you have blacksmiths.

IĀ consider the Medieval Village blacksmith to be a down to earth blacksmith, taking care ofĀ cattle's hoof, and other iron utensils for daily use in a village or town setting.
The blacksmith of the Ideas platform looks more like an armourer to me. Which is why he has such a nice house. There's money to be made for a good armourer.

Tbt - now that u mention it... lol

3 hours ago, MAB said:

Ifļ»æ theļ»æļ»æļ»æļ»æļ»æļ»æļ»æļ»æļ»æļ»æļ»æļ»æļ»æ outfitļ»æļ»æ is generic enoughļ»æļ»æļ»æ to also be used fļ»æorļ»æ a carpļ»æenterļ»æļ»æļ»æļ»æļ»æļ»æļ»æļ»æ, bļ»æuļ»æilderļ»æļ»æļ»æļ»æ, baker, and so on, more than just oļ»ænļ»æeļ»æļ»æ.

Hmm... guess I will need more blacksmith torsos then.

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I think your taking this to literally.Ā  I'm saying that the the Lion is universally seen as a symbol of strong knights, realm, kingdom or whatever.Ā  It's used in many video games, fantasy adventure novels, tv shows, etc and is seen as a strong society.Ā  I would like and updated version yes does it have to happen now no.Ā  Of course I would love new heraldry like griffons or even a new stag, possibly a eagle, any new heraldry is welcome.Ā Ā 

12 hours ago, Alexandrina said:

The thing is, having a different faction with shared heraldry can be good for army building (I personally wouldn't combine the Kingdoms knights with the Lion Knights but that's just me) but they are still different factions. The new Black Falcons are very clearly a modernised version of the old ones. The same hasn't happened for the Lion Knights, and they're not so iconic that they specifically need to be updated ASAP.Ā 

Lions are a common feature of heraldry - almost one of the default set. You can link them to the Plantagenets and the English kings of the High Middle Ages, and other places besides, so it's not surprising that they crop up a lot. That doesn't mean that the Lego faction known as 'Lion Knights' is similarly iconic.Ā 

In any case, there are plenty of heraldic animals Lego haven't really used yet. I'd like to see gryphons on the next faction.Ā 

Ā 

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3 minutes ago, zoth33 said:

I think yourļ»æ ļ»ætaking this to literally.Ā ļ»æļ»æ I'm saying that the the Lionļ»æļ»æ isļ»æ ļ»æuniversally seen as a symbol of strong knights, rļ»æļ»æealmļ»æ, kingdom or whatever.Ā  It's used in many video games, fantasyļ»æ adventure noveļ»ælļ»æs, tļ»ævļ»æ showsļ»æļ»æ, etc and is seeļ»æn as a strong societļ»æļ»æļ»æy.

Unless I misinterpreted the original poster, the discussion was originally referring to the Lion Knights as a specific faction, the 1980s faction, in the same way that 'Black Falcons' refers to the classic faction. That's not the same as a faction having generic lion heraldry, and my point was merely that the vintage faction does not have much cultural resonance today.Ā 

I also don't think that lions as a symbol make a faction of knights automatically any more appealing than any other heraldry. If the colours matched a popular faction from media, like Lannister red, it would be a different issue - but I suspect a new faction with lions would sell as well as a new faction with something different. As such, I disagree with the original assertion (not by you, as I recall) that the Lion Knights are overdue a return.Ā 

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1 minute ago, Alexandrina said:

Unless I misinterpreted the original poster, the discussion was originally referring to the Lion Knights as a specific faction, the 1980s faction, in the same way that 'Black Falcons' refers to the classic faction. That's not the same as a faction having generic lion heraldry, and my point was merely that the vintage faction does not have much cultural resonance today.Ā 

I also don't think that lions as a symbol make a faction of knights automatically any more appealing than any other heraldry. If the colours matched a popular faction from media, like Lannister red, it would be a different issue - but I suspect a new faction with lions would sell as well as a new faction with something different. As such, I disagree with the original assertion (not by you, as I recall) that the Lion Knights are overdue a return.Ā 

Ok I'm just saying it's universally recognized through all those things i mentioned, video games, shows, movies, etc.Ā  I'm saying that more people may recognize lion knights through these other forms.Ā  Of course the original factions are great I have both original lions and black falcons.Ā  Yes it would be nice to get a throwback to the old heraldry like the did with the gwp a while back but I doubt they will do it anytime soon.Ā  All I'm saying is they are more recognizable that's all.Ā  I would just take some new lion knights that's all.Ā  But new factions are Overdue in my opinion.Ā  I know lego loves the lions and dragons as heraldry.Ā Ā 

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So wait, some of you are alluding to the Creator castle having Black Falcons; has that been confirmed? And is there much new info about it at any rate?

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