Future Castle Sets?

[Lord Insanity]

On 1/18/2021 at 4:47 PM, valon said:

no, star war is in space and has space ship and minifigure that work. Harry Potter has castle, but there are no knight the current ninjago theme is castle partially nexo knight was good for space but not for castle johnny thunder i guess

Star Wars has "space ships" the same way Harry Potter has "castles."  Neither have astronauts or knights.  Ironically Star Wars minifigures are more likely to be useful for castle civilians than they are for space astronauts.

[JintaiZ]

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Edited January 25, 2021 by JintaiZ

[Old-mf]

3 hours ago, JintaiZ said:

I agree with your votes, but I think 21325 Medieval Blacksmith is similar to Castle and 31109 Pirate Ship is similar to Pirates.

It is not similar. It is exactly the thing... These are first sets that came for five years or so... Apart from that castle got only 2 figures of knights from cmfs and semi-castle builds from HP. But none of the environment like farm or fantasy creatures. No villagers that could make the scenary... No any popular faction knights... So blacksmith is the first castle set in a while. With so little figures / creatures. This is not a wave of sets... 

While castle fans are used to building / moding existing sets, we still need population... So I personally hope for farmland and tournament sets that could create scene for heroic castle action...

 

EDIT: We got centaurs and Ninjago Eastern dragons which do not fit quite well. Maybe last bone dragon does for fantasy. But yes. Bionicle got none... And I do understand that counting hero factory as Bionicle is like counting frozen dog's presents an ice-cream...

Edited January 24, 2021 by Old-mf

[Lyichir]

17 minutes ago, Old-mf said:

It is not similar. It is exactly the thing... These are first sets that came for five years or so... Apart from that castle got only 2 figures of knights from cmfs and semi-castle builds from HP. But none of the environment like farm or fantasy creatures. No villagers that could make the scenary... No any popular faction knights... So blacksmith is the first castle set in a while. With so little figures / creatures. This is not a wave of sets... 

While castle fans are used to building / moding existing sets, we still need population... So I personally hope for farmland and tournament sets that could create scene for heroic castle action...

 

EDIT: We got centaurs and Ninjago Eastern dragons which do not fit quite well. Maybe last bone dragon does for fantasy. But yes. Bionicle got none... And I do understand that counting hero factory as Bionicle is like counting frozen dog's presents an ice-cream...

You make good points, but do keep in mind that the results of this poll are not going to result in a "wave of sets" either. It's for one D2C set that we don't even know the size of, so no telling how many or how few figs will be included (heck, the description of what's being produced doesn't even guarantee that it will be a minifigure-scale set at all, though a set with no figs of any sort is obviously a worst case scenario and probably unlikely). Even the theme that is chosen is unlikely to include any major new or reintroduced molds, given how infrequently D2C sets are to include those, meaning that certain themes or factions will likely have to rely on substitutions. So a full theme revival, this is not. It will be a nice thing for whichever theme gets chosen, but will be unlikely to fully sate fans of long-retired themes the way a full theme could.

[zoth33]

2 hours ago, Lyichir said:

You make good points, but do keep in mind that the results of this poll are not going to result in a "wave of sets" either. It's for one D2C set that we don't even know the size of, so no telling how many or how few figs will be included (heck, the description of what's being produced doesn't even guarantee that it will be a minifigure-scale set at all, though a set with no figs of any sort is obviously a worst case scenario and probably unlikely). Even the theme that is chosen is unlikely to include any major new or reintroduced molds, given how infrequently D2C sets are to include those, meaning that certain themes or factions will likely have to rely on substitutions. So a full theme revival, this is not. It will be a nice thing for whichever theme gets chosen, but will be unlikely to fully sate fans of long-retired themes the way a full theme could.

Yeah I don't know where people thought it was a whole wave from.  But the fact that there are several different castle themes on there doesn't look good for getting castle as it will probably cannibalize each other for votes.  If there were less castle themes on there I think we would have a better shot of getting a castle set out of this.  

[Old-mf]

1 hour ago, zoth33 said:

Yeah I don't know where people thought it was a whole wave from.  But the fact that there are several different castle themes on there doesn't look good for getting castle as it will probably cannibalize each other for votes.  If there were less castle themes on there I think we would have a better shot of getting a castle set out of this.  

I am not speaking here of the vote that is on out there. I am speaking of the fact, that there is nothing that might stop Lego from making a castle theme. There are tons of pieces great for Castle. There are still molds for several shield types, several sword types, as well as armor and helmets, hats and hoods. There are still horses. Just put there nice coats of arms and there will be crowds of happy castle fans! There is like absolutely no need for new molds. They are nice to have, but not a must. And only thing stopping Lego making new castle waves is their own wish. Or greed... If there are other options out there making more profit

Will sets with so wanted castle figures sell like 501 that SW fans whined / demanded / prayed out of Lego? I would go for those if produced... In multiples...

EDIT: just make it one / two figures from one faction. Falcons / dragons / lion / forest / wolves and so on

Edited January 25, 2021 by Old-mf

[zoth33]

12 minutes ago, Old-mf said:

I am not speaking here of the vote that is on out there. I am speaking of the fact, that there is nothing that might stop Lego from making a castle theme. There are tons of pieces great for Castle. There are still molds for several shield types, several sword types, as well as armor and helmets, hats and hoods. There are still horses. Just put there nice coats of arms and there will be crowds of happy castle fans! There is like absolutely no need for new molds. They are nice to have, but not a must. And only thing stopping Lego making new castle waves is their own wish. Or greed... If there are other options out there making more profit

Will sets with so wanted castle figures sell like 501 that SW fans whined / demanded / prayed out of Lego? I would go for those if produced... In multiples...

EDIT: just make it one / two figures from one faction. Falcons / dragons / lion / forest / wolves and so on

 Of course they have the capacity.  The last line was 2013.  And shortly there after LOTR/Hobbit ended.  I'm just taking a guess and they are thinking a castle theme wouldn't sell well.  But with all the fantasy related things coming out like The Witcher, the new GOT series, the amazon LOTR series, The Wheel of time series you would think they would come out with something.  Also with the popularity of things like magic the gathering, WOW, ESO, black desert, etc. hopefully lego comes out with something because there is a market for this.  But for some reason they have not come out with anything castle/fantasy.  I also hope that if they do come out with something that we as fans show that we want more of it.  

[Old-mf]

1 hour ago, zoth33 said:

 Of course they have the capacity.  The last line was 2013.  And shortly there after LOTR/Hobbit ended.  I'm just taking a guess and they are thinking a castle theme wouldn't sell well.  But with all the fantasy related things coming out like The Witcher, the new GOT series, the amazon LOTR series, The Wheel of time series you would think they would come out with something.  Also with the popularity of things like magic the gathering, WOW, ESO, black desert, etc. hopefully lego comes out with something because there is a market for this.  But for some reason they have not come out with anything castle/fantasy.  I also hope that if they do come out with something that we as fans show that we want more of it.  

Why should they use some licence stuff which brings on restrictions and increases final price, when they have their own theme? 

While general interest increases, we still do not even have rumours of castle line. Though Lego might be just tasting things out with pirates and castle 3 in 1 sets. 

[zoth33]

On 1/25/2021 at 12:26 AM, Old-mf said:

Why should they use some licence stuff which brings on restrictions and increases final price, when they have their own theme? 

While general interest increases, we still do not even have rumours of castle line. Though Lego might be just tasting things out with pirates and castle 3 in 1 sets. 

That's not what I said.  I didn't say they would do any of those things I mentioned.  I was simply pointing out that there is a lot of interest in high fantasy in media like tv shows, games, movies and even books.  I was using them as examples of the popularity of fantasy in general.  I was pointing out that with the popularity of these franchises that lego could easily make  something fantasy/castle related and it would probably sell well.  I didn't say there is a rumor this a thread on what you would like to see in future castle sets.  I'm just saying I wouldn't mind something along any of those lines.  

[Klaus-Dieter]

On 1/18/2021 at 12:03 AM, Aanchir said:

Depends how strictly you define "non-fantasy", I think. Even if it doesn't include any wizards or dragons or so forth, it might still reflect some modern, pop-culture-influenced ideas about what medieval castles would have been like, just like how the Creator pirate ship reflected modern ideas of what the age of piracy looked like based on iconic fictional stories like Treasure Island (including stuff that would be historically inaccurate or uncommon like skull-patterned sails or skull-shaped treasure caves).

And while I expect the main model would be a fairly standard/archetypical portrayal of a medieval castle without too many uncommon or unexpected architectural flourishes, the alternate models might be more fantasy-influenced.

I completely agree with you - that's what I meant.

"Non-fantasy" in Lego's themes of course doesn't mean hundred percent historic accurateness, but the absence of fantasy creatures (like in Castle 2007-2009) and no video game look (like in Castle 2013). So the last "non-fantasy" Castle theme was Kingdoms (2010-12) - imo the best Castle theme ever.

[MAB]

5 hours ago, Klaus-Dieter said:

I completely agree with you - that's what I meant.

"Non-fantasy" in Lego's themes of course doesn't mean hundred percent historic accurateness, but the absence of fantasy creatures (like in Castle 2007-2009) and no video game look (like in Castle 2013). So the last "non-fantasy" Castle theme was Kingdoms (2010-12) - imo the best Castle theme ever.

I don't get it. What makes Castle 2013 have a video game whereas Kingdoms the best ever? When you compare the King's Castle in each theme they look very similar. And that was a reason often given for people complaining and not buying the 2013 set,  that it was too similar (and therefore lazy design and so on).

[Weil]

1 hour ago, MAB said:

I don't get it. What makes Castle 2013 have a video game whereas Kingdoms the best ever? When you compare the King's Castle in each theme they look very similar. And that was a reason often given for people complaining and not buying the 2013 set,  that it was too similar (and therefore lazy design and so on).

Yes, but is comparing the King's Castle in each theme really a fair comparison of the overall theme?  It seems you've just specifically picked two sets for the purpose of comparison because they're similar - and then concluded that they're similar.

I'm not sure what is meant by "video game look" but I like Kingdoms much better than the 2013 line (including liking the King's Castle more).

One reason for this is that I like the heraldry and minifigure designs more in Kingdoms.  However, the diversity of sets in the theme is also much better in my opinion.

Kingdoms had sets like those in the 2013 line but Kingdoms also had e.g.: blacksmith 6198; mill village raid 7189; joust 10223.  It's much harder to try and say any set in the 2013 Castle line is similar to those.

What the 2013 line did have that Kingdoms didn't is a large dragon.  I'm not that interested in that. 

[Lego David]

4 hours ago, Weil said:

Kingdoms had sets like those in the 2013 line but Kingdoms also had e.g.: blacksmith 6198; mill village raid 7189; joust 10223.  It's much harder to try and say any set in the 2013 Castle line is similar to those.

Those specific examples were part of the 2011 wave of Kingdoms, which was more of an oddity than what a LEGO Castle theme usually does. (the Joust 10223 set was a LEGO.com exclusive set if I recall correctly). The 2013 Castle sets were almost identical to the 2010 Kingdoms sets. 

 

[Weil]

12 minutes ago, Lego David said:

Those specific examples were part of the 2011 wave of Kingdoms, which was more of an oddity than what a LEGO Castle theme usually does. (the Joust 10223 set was a LEGO.com exclusive set if I recall correctly). The 2013 Castle sets were almost identical to the 2010 Kingdoms sets. 

 

Yes, that's correct the 2010 sets were more similar than the later sets.  I'm not sure if you're just providing that as additional information (its fine if you are!) or if you're trying to make some further point though.  The later sets were still part of Kingdoms, and saying they were "unusual" only reinforces that Kingdoms, as a whole, was quite different to the 2013 line.

It therefore seems reasonable for a person to like one more than the other.

I also think saying the 2010 sets were almost identical to the 2013 ones is a bit too strong.  I agree the concepts of the sets were very similar.  This applies to many waves of each of Castle, Space, Pirates etc. though.  I still liked the 2010 sets better than the 2013 sets.  In particular, I liked the designs for the Kingdoms factions better.

I'm not saying I think the themes were conceptually that different (I don't agree that you can say one is fantasy and one is not).  I'm just saying I think it's reasonable for someone to like one more!

[Lego David]

20 minutes ago, Weil said:

I'm not saying I think the themes were conceptually that different (I don't agree that you can say one is fantasy and one is not).  I'm just saying I think it's reasonable for someone to like one more!

It's totally fine to like one more than the other, (I myself like Kingdoms more than Castle 13') but the point I'm making is that both Kingdoms and Castle 13' are very similar, with the exception of the 2011 Kingdoms wave, which was remarkably different from any other Castle line we ever got during that era. 

 

[gedren_y]

Castle 2013 was marketed at younger builders, and relied heavily on the combat aspect. The builds for the most part were simpler, the heraldry struck many as cartoonish, and the faces of the figs were mostly pretty goofy. I actually liked the lion heraldry from it because it seemed like a blue version of the Royal Knights, albeit with a slightly more geometric lion. The dragon heraldry is more cartoonish than previous versions.

One notable positive that came out of this was the 4x4 diagonal brick, which is significantly more useful for modern building techniques than its 5x5 predecessor.

[Weil]

57 minutes ago, Lego David said:

It's totally fine to like one more than the other, (I myself like Kingdoms more than Castle 13') but the point I'm making is that both Kingdoms and Castle 13' are very similar, with the exception of the 2011 Kingdoms wave, which was remarkably different from any other Castle line we ever got during that era. 

 

Okay, I think we basically agree 

[Aanchir]

1 hour ago, gedren_y said:

Castle 2013 was marketed at younger builders, and relied heavily on the combat aspect. The builds for the most part were simpler, the heraldry struck many as cartoonish, and the faces of the figs were mostly pretty goofy. I actually liked the lion heraldry from it because it seemed like a blue version of the Royal Knights, albeit with a slightly more geometric lion. The dragon heraldry is more cartoonish than previous versions.

I'm curious what your benchmark is for "marketed at younger builders", because honestly the 2013 Castle sets seemed to be aimed at pretty much the same age range as usual. They had a minimum recommended age of 5 years for the smallest sets (Forest Ambush) and 7 years for the largest set (King's Castle). The same was true of Kingdoms and Fantasy Era sets, excluding direct-to-consumer exclusives like Medieval Market Village and Kingdoms Joust.

The upper recommended age of Castle themes has fluctuated erratically between 12 years and 14 years, but whatever the reason for that, it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the sets' size, complexity, or level of realism — for instance, King's Castle Siege was marked 7–12, but Skeleton Ship Attack and Troll Warship were marked 7–14. These days LEGO has largely stopped including any sort of upper boundary on their recommended age range markings, perhaps because of how confusing and arbitrary these fluctuations could seem to buyers.

I know a lot of folks tend to assume that even when sets have the same recommended age range in writing, ones with brighter colors and more cartoony graphic design can be assumed to be aimed at younger builders. But I have yet to see much compelling evidence for this, particularly considering that Ninjago, Elves, and Nexo Knights sets frequently have a HIGHER target age range than any non-D2C Castle sets. In these themes, even many of the SMALLEST sets like Spinjitzu Kai, Emily Jones & the Eagle Getaway, and Chaos Catapult tend to be marked for ages 7+, while larger ones like Empire Temple of Madness, Queen Dragon's Rescue, and The Fortrex are frequently marked for age ranges as high as 9+.

For that matter, the last non-D2C Castle set with even an 8+ age range was… Vladek's Dark Fortress from Knights' Kingdom II. Even if its size is quite impressive and its colors are a lot more subdued than AFOLs tend to associate with that theme's "Jellybean Knights", its heraldry, play features, and exaggeratedly sinister design language are every bit as cartoonish and unrealistic as the 2013 Castle sets.

I don't mean to suggest that there's no excuse for not liking the 2013 Castle sets. But I think especially in AFOL circles there's often a tendency to think that builders' tastes in themes or play features or color schemes are intricately tied to their maturity. And I'm sure some of that is based on our own firsthand experience of how our views of that type of stuff has changed over the course of our own lives.

But most of the time these sorts of tastes vary on an individual basis among both kids AND adults, and it's probably both more accurate AND more respectful to other builders just to say that "the bright blue didn't work for me" or "I think there were too many catapults" or "I preferred the older lion and dragon heraldry" than to try and attribute those preferences to your age/maturity or the age/maturity of the intended audience. After all, even if two sets are aimed at the same demographic, that doesn't guarantee that they're going to successfully appeal to all the same buyers!

It's fine just to dislike stuff for personal reasons without needing to try and come up with market-based explanations for it. After all, there's plenty of adult-oriented sets that don't interest me, but it's not as though that somehow means I'm not part of the age range they're targeted at. Just that they're not really catered to my personal interests.

[Lego David]

14 hours ago, gedren_y said:

Castle 2013 was marketed at younger builders, and relied heavily on the combat aspect.

I read somewhere that TLG's focus test groups determined that older kids thought of Castle and Pirates as being "childish", and thus LEGO decided to market all the modern Castle and Pirates themes to a much younger audience. Which is super ironic, since Castle and Pirates are themes that pretty much most of the AFOLs seem to be obsessed with. I think that goes to explain why there haven't been that many large Caste or Pirate themed sets aimed at an older audience, and why in general, Castle and Pirate themes have been pretty much dead for the past few years. 

The more I read about TLG's internal stuff, the more I am convinced that they don't understand their fan community at all, and even when they try to get close to us by purchasing Bricklink or doing the 90th anniversary LEGO poll, they just end up making things even worse. 

[Hive]

12 hours ago, Aanchir said:

I'm curious what your benchmark is for "marketed at younger builders", because honestly the 2013 Castle sets seemed to be aimed at pretty much the same age range as usual.

Sure, if you go strictly by the age range they put on the box. But are you arguing that you can't see that 2013 was more cartoonish than Kingdoms or Fantasy Castle?

The sets themselves also felt more generic and run-of-the-mill compared to some of the pretty innovative and fresh set ideas from the two previous themes - though of course, those did have more more waves and opportunity to develop than 2013.

Of course, it's all a matter of preference. And 2013 probably has its fans - though I'm fairly certain most AFOLs prefer Kingdoms or Fantasy Castle.

[MAB]

On 1/30/2021 at 11:29 AM, Weil said:

Yes, but is comparing the King's Castle in each theme really a fair comparison of the overall theme?  It seems you've just specifically picked two sets for the purpose of comparison because they're similar - and then concluded that they're similar.

I picked the largest set in each theme, that being the origin of many of the complaints about the 2013 line.

 

And remember that the 2013 Castle lasted just about a year, the 2014 sets were minimal battle packs. Compare the 2013 range with the first year of Kingdoms in 2010. They look very similar. Who knows what we would have got if LEGO had extended the 2013 range. 

Edited January 31, 2021 by MAB

[Weil]

47 minutes ago, MAB said:

I picked the largest set in each theme, that being the origin of many of the complaints about the 2013 line.

To be fair it wasn't the largest set in each theme but I can see why this seemed a sensible comparison now.

The 2013 and 2010 releases look very similar in concept but, as I and I think others have said, I liked the heraldry and designs of the factions in Kingdoms better.

Maybe the 2013 range would have included some great stuff if it was extended.  Though it wasn't, whereas Kingdoms was.

Edited January 31, 2021 by Weil

[Aanchir]

11 hours ago, Hive said:

Sure, if you go strictly by the age range they put on the box. But are you arguing that you can't see that 2013 was more cartoonish than Kingdoms or Fantasy Castle?

No, I’m arguing that cartoonishness is not a reliable indicator of target age. Themes like Bionicle, Ninjago, Legends of Chima, and Nexo Knights are extremely unrealistic, colorful, and cartoonish, but aimed at older kids than themes like City and Castle which tend to more closely resemble their familiar, real-life counterparts.

The reason this strategy is effective is that younger kids tend to be much more excited about subject matter which represents the real world, many aspects of which are still fairly new to them. As they get older, their interests often begin to gravitate towards toys that combine the various concepts they’ve come to in new or unconventional ways.

It’s the same sort of thing that has helped to fuel other non-LEGO crazes among schoolkids (short-lived fads and enduring favorites alike) such as Transformers, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and Pokémon. No matter how blatantly cartoonish these series are, they’re the sort of stuff that a lot of preteen and early teenage kids are crazy about.

In some cases, adults ALSO tend to prefer more realistic, grounded stuff with subdued colors over cartoonish, brightly-colored fantasy stuff. But this is hardly universal. Just look at how many old-school AFOLs there are who crave a revival of Classic Space, with its bright blue and yellow spaceships and candy-colored spacesuits with flashy logos, but are not the slightest bit sated by either the Star Wars theme’s gritty, utilitarian “used future” aesthetics, nor by City, Creator, and Ideas sets that draw direct inspiration from real-life space exploration technologies of the past, present, and projections for the near future.

Moreover, a preference for realism among adults can sometimes steer older kids AWAY from that sort of subject matter, since preteen kids and teenagers are at an age where they often begin craving more independence from their parents’ influence and seeking our interests that are uniquely theirs — even if it’s stuff the adults in their life “don’t get”, like Pokémon and Bionicle were for my parents and teachers when I was growing up.

11 hours ago, Hive said:

The sets themselves also felt more generic and run-of-the-mill compared to some of the pretty innovative and fresh set ideas from the two previous themes - though of course, those did have more more waves and opportunity to develop than 2013.

You’re right that the 2013 wave felt very “by the book”, but I think that speaks more to its similarities to the Kingdoms theme than its differences. Almost every set in the 2013 wave had a fairly direct counterpart in 2010: a big “good guy” castle, a mid-size “bad guy” prison tower, a smaller “good guy” fortification under siege by a “bad guy” catapult, a “bad guy” prison carriage, and a tiny battle scene with knights from both factions and a small siege engine. For that matter, all but the smaller “good guy” fortification had a similar counterpart in the first wave of Fantasy Era sets as well!

Also, even if the 2013 sets didn’t really introduce many new ideas/concepts, that Kingdoms had lacked, they certainly made some nice strides in terms of complexity. The Gatehouse Raid set was substantially more detailed than the Outpost Attack, with more brick-built detail, less reliance on large panels or stickers to suggest authentic textures/materials, and even a modular design that could combine with the King’s Castle. The Gold Getaway set is likewise a considerable improvement over Prison Carriage Rescue, not just in size but also the articulated carriage shafts. The small brick-built outpost is also a respectable secondary build for its size. And even the 2013 King’s Castle has a more detailed two-tiered gatehouse build with more complex mechanisms for the drawbridge and portcullis than the 2010 version (even if I have a great respect for the efficiency of the earlier portcullis mechanism, given that tying knots is by far my least favorite part of LEGO building).

Mind you, no LEGO Castle wave has yet satisfied a lot of my expectations for the details I would like a Castle theme to include, such as amenities that reflect the lifestyles of castle denizens like a stable, banquet table, and royal bedchamber. And it’s especially frustrating to me now that we’ve seen much less realistic themes like Elves and Nexo Knights that do better at including practical stuff like dining and sleeping arrangements in their castles, even while maintaining more “traditional”, action-play-oriented Castle design features like traps, weapon emplacements, secret entrances/exits, drawbridges, thrones, and dungeons.

So by no means am I trying to insinuate that the 2013 Castle sets were somehow flawless, or that they shouldn’t be criticized — just that a formulaic approach like this doesn’t really mesh with the idea that the theme’s faults are due to an underlying strategic change like a younger audience. If anything, that sense of repetition suggests a LACK of major strategic changes or deviations from earlier precedent during the development process.

[gedren_y]

I may have misstated my intent with my earlier comment about to whom Castle 2013 was marketed. I was referring to the fact that LOTR, which was only a year into its run when Castle 2013 debuted, was largely going after the movie (and existing book) fandom market. At the time that was teens and adults. I was only referring to the disparity between those two, not previous Castle themes. I should have separated that comment from the heraldry comments, which were where I did make comparisons.

Yes, there were some advances in build techniques over Kingdoms, but some of that had to do with the wider availability of new parts, and some the freedom of aesthetic. Also the relative realism of Kingdoms didn't require many complicated techniques.

[MAB]

15 hours ago, Aanchir said:

Mind you, no LEGO Castle wave has yet satisfied a lot of my expectations for the details I would like a Castle theme to include, such as amenities that reflect the lifestyles of castle denizens like a stable, banquet table, and royal bedchamber. And it’s especially frustrating to me now that we’ve seen much less realistic themes like Elves and Nexo Knights that do better at including practical stuff like dining and sleeping arrangements in their castles, even while maintaining more “traditional”, action-play-oriented Castle design features like traps, weapon emplacements, secret entrances/exits, drawbridges, thrones, and dungeons.

I had a wooden castle as a boy. I don't think I ever worried about where the people in it slept and ate. I wonder if kids are any different today.