Future Castle Sets?

[Aanchir]

1 hour ago, gedren_y said:

My big peeve with Lego castles is the simple walls, towers, and gatehouse approach to what a castle is. Where is the actual keep? There is so much more play value that could be had with more realistic castle sections sets than simple good vs. bad conflicts. They could then appeal to a broader consumer base.

I very much agree that a keep adds a lot to a castle! I am working on one for mine with a bedchamber, dining room, and kitchen.

Thank you everyone for the feedback on my MOC! I agree if I wanted to design this for a $100–$150 price point I’d be using a lot more single-piece wall panels and columns (in fact, I could reduce each tower’s piece count by over 64 parts)! One reason I didn’t was since as a MOC I hope to maybe build in real life, my pieces are limited to what’s already released and the 2x2x5 quarter cylinder panel still only comes in three colors, and 1x4x5 castle wall panels only come in one of those colors (Spring Yellowish Green)! Not only is such a licheny color a lot brighter than a lot of Castle fans seem to prefer, it’d also be hard not to make it feel too much like the Goblin King’s Fortress from LEGO Elves.

I might try making a separate simplified version though since the current WIP is approaching 1600 parts!

[MAB]

3 hours ago, gedren_y said:

My big peeve with Lego castles is the simple walls, towers, and gatehouse approach to what a castle is. Where is the actual keep? There is so much more play value that could be had with more realistic castle sections sets than simple good vs. bad conflicts. They could then appeal to a broader consumer base.

It would probably cost too much to do a separate keep inside the walls for a kids' play set. The tower with the throne is meant to be the keep - after all, it is where the king "lives" (OK, just about sits) - but is usually mashed into a wall to keep the size and part count down. If they moved the tower inside the walls, it means extra layers for the tower to make it tall again and probably a bigger circumference for the walls is also required, so that there was some room between the keep and the walls for play. I don't think kids really care too much about the historical inaccuracy, after all, many rooms are missing anyway. They have a gate to attack and a room for the king inside the castle. £80 / $100 for a reasonable size kids castle is fine, but £160 / $200 to have it slightly more accurate and bigger would probably put many off.

[x105Black]

4 hours ago, MAB said:

...never please everyone.

AFOLS: we want more castle that has to be different to everything you've done before but it also has to be similar so that it is compatible or we're not buying it.

LEGO: OK. Different but similar you say. Here's Nexo Knights. One out of two ain't bad.

Yes, there are different points of view about what would make a good Castle theme, and not everyone will be pleased with every iteration of the theme.  So they should continue to try, so that eventually everyone's needs will be met over time, and will continue to be met every few iterations.

3 hours ago, gedren_y said:

My big peeve with Lego castles is the simple walls, towers, and gatehouse approach to what a castle is. Where is the actual keep? There is so much more play value that could be had with more realistic castle sections sets than simple good vs. bad conflicts. They could then appeal to a broader consumer base.

I'd love to see them devote that much to a Castle set.  It would be great for some kids and many adult collectors.

[gedren_y]

The way to go to maximize my above idea would be to make the keep the large set of a line. Make it a hinged opening set, with a great hall, raised dais, balcony, and rooms. Technic pins to connect it to other Castle sets. A gatehouse set with civilian cart (possible enemy raid). Four unique corner sets, with varying price points: wizard's tower, catapult defense, prisoner tower, and falconry roost. Offer multiple wall sections with different interior activity: stable, blacksmith, barracks, lists, kitchen, etc. Make enough wall sets that buying the keep wouldn't be needed to create the more standard Lego large castle look.

[The_Cook]

1 hour ago, MAB said:

It would probably cost too much to do a separate keep inside the walls for a kids' play set. The tower with the throne is meant to be the keep - after all, it is where the king "lives" (OK, just about sits) - but is usually mashed into a wall to keep the size and part count down. If they moved the tower inside the walls, it means extra layers for the tower to make it tall again and probably a bigger circumference for the walls is also required, so that there was some room between the keep and the walls for play. I don't think kids really care too much about the historical inaccuracy, after all, many rooms are missing anyway. They have a gate to attack and a room for the king inside the castle. £80 / $100 for a reasonable size kids castle is fine, but £160 / $200 to have it slightly more accurate and bigger would probably put many off.

The parts count for a solid keep would be as much as the curtain walls themselves and push the price point beyond what most parents would be willing to pay for an 8 year old child.

I could see it working as D2C, where the keep opens up Dolls-House style to reveal rooms inside (think Ghostbusters HQ) but either the cost has to be high to cover brick built or the panel count has to be high to keep the costs down (and think of the ire the panels would raise on these forums).

[x105Black]

The idea of a big Castle with a Keep could really work if we think of the way that the Creator Expert modular buildings or UCS style Star Wars sets are done.  Also, think about sets like the SHIELD Helicarrier, Metal Beard's Sea Cow, the Disney Castle, Ninjago City, and maybe the rumored Hogwarts for later this year.  That's the direction I think we could move with the Castle theme.  I don't think it's a far-fetched proposition to imagine a large Castle themed structure with 2000+ pieces.

That said, I'm not sure it's sustainable every year, but if a Castle theme lasts roughly 3 years there could be one large flagship set for each iteration of the Castle theme.  Obviously, that could be increased if there was a lot of success.

And the same could be done with other "evergreen" themes of LEGO history, like Space and Pirates.  I consider the current Creator Expert modular line to be City themed, even though it technically falls into the Creator theme.  So while I think there is a chance that these "evergreen" themes could find a place in the Creator Expert series, I would much prefer they get their own independent releases so that City fans could continue to get their yearly modular build.

[Lord Insanity]

I am reminded of this old mash up of The Battle of Helm's Deep (with the Uruk-Hai Army wall section) and Vampyre Castle by Eurobricks user Ragnar_Deerslayer.

That illustrates very well how awesome a solid D2C $250-$300 castle with keep could be made.  After seeing that mash up I took my copies of those sets and lined them up that way.  It is truly epic to see in person.  I still think that mash up looks better than either set by itself.  Considering how well the sets "accidentally" work together, just imagine how good an intentional cohesive design like that could be.

[gedren_y]

My idea was NOT suggesting a D2C keep. The keep would be at the parts number and price point of the King's Castle of previous lines. Yes, it would be built with a number of panels, but I don't see that as much of a negative.

[BrickJagger]

I could see them getting away with making a $120 castle that would be the same size as 2013's but have a slightly larger back tower that opens up to reveal an interior. A small "keep" type thing that just has a small livable interior is good enough for me.

[SirBlake]

Man, that HelmsVamp combo is rad. I never would have thought to try that. 

It is an exciting idea to think what a +/- 2000 piece set could look like. 

More pipe dreams, but it’s fun to ponder.  

[Lyichir]

I've been helping my brother with concepts for his castle MOC and one thing that's dawned on me as a result is how important a higher price point could be for variety. One reason the past two King's Castles have been so similar is that to have a "complete" castle at that scale, you are sort of forced to stick to the bare essentials of what kids expect from a castle. At a larger size (which, by necessity, comes with a higher price point), you can make space for not just a dungeon, gatehouse, throne, and treasure room like the past few castles have had, but also less common features like kitchens, bedchambers, stables, and even a medieval garderobe (after all, other themes like City have proven that kids love toilets!).

Of course, if you want to include all of those sorts of subjects, the scale does get pretty ridiculously large, which is why even if we do get a more expensive castle modularity will probably still be an important feature. Not only will that allow for a cheaper option for kids who can't afford the "main" castle, but it will allow features to be split between multiple sets. The tricky part of that is making sure that neither modular feels incomplete on its own, while at the same time avoiding having too much redundancy. A pair of sets like Vladek's Dark Fortress from Knights' Kingdom II, with a large front section as the "main" castle that can be expanded with a rear gate and dock from another set, might be the best way to go about something like that.

[MAB]

17 hours ago, x105Black said:

The idea of a big Castle with a Keep could really work if we think of the way that the Creator Expert modular buildings or UCS style Star Wars sets are done.  Also, think about sets like the SHIELD Helicarrier, Metal Beard's Sea Cow, the Disney Castle, Ninjago City, and maybe the rumored Hogwarts for later this year.  That's the direction I think we could move with the Castle theme.  I don't think it's a far-fetched proposition to imagine a large Castle themed structure with 2000+ pieces.
 

 

Creator expert / modulars are aimed at adults / high teens. UCS SW the same. The other larger sets for the most part are also the same, or they are the flagship set from a movie. I'm not sure a 2000+ piece castle set is a possibility, unless they shift the age range from being aimed at younger to older kids and adults. And I imagine that would hit sales. I'm not sure there are enough older teens / adults wanting to drop money on a large castle compared to the number of families prepared to buy into a castle line. It would also be in competition with the modulars. And presumably if there were still doing a kid castle line at the same time, there would need to be a kid castle, and it would be in competition with that.

[x105Black]

11 minutes ago, MAB said:

Creator expert / modulars are aimed at adults / high teens.

OK, let's do that then.

Who was Ninjago City aimed at?  How about the rest of the Ninjago Movie line?

[gedren_y]

1 hour ago, Lyichir said:

I've been helping my brother with concepts for his castle MOC and one thing that's dawned on me as a result is how important a higher price point could be for variety. One reason the past two King's Castles have been so similar is that to have a "complete" castle at that scale, you are sort of forced to stick to the bare essentials of what kids expect from a castle. At a larger size (which, by necessity, comes with a higher price point), you can make space for not just a dungeon, gatehouse, throne, and treasure room like the past few castles have had, but also less common features like kitchens, bedchambers, stables, and even a medieval garderobe (after all, other themes like City have proven that kids love toilets!).

Of course, if you want to include all of those sorts of subjects, the scale does get pretty ridiculously large, which is why even if we do get a more expensive castle modularity will probably still be an important feature. Not only will that allow for a cheaper option for kids who can't afford the "main" castle, but it will allow features to be split between multiple sets. The tricky part of that is making sure that neither modular feels incomplete on its own, while at the same time avoiding having too much redundancy. A pair of sets like Vladek's Dark Fortress from Knights' Kingdom II, with a large front section as the "main" castle that can be expanded with a rear gate and dock from another set, might be the best way to go about something like that.

This is the idea. You're right about making a set seem complete while still being a piece of a larger castle. My initial thought was to have end cap builds. A small build split in half that fit into the connection points between sets. It would cut into the piece count a bit, but when multiple sets are combined these extra bits can add to the play value. Get enough sets to build a curtain wall, then you also have a bunch of other things in your Castle world than just the castle.

Kids can invent all kinds adventures with these side builds. Make at least one of these side builds a tree. One could be a column with two statues in combat. Make another a rock formation that can hold a sword, like the classic Arthurian tale. I'll work on a few more ideas.

[MAB]

22 minutes ago, x105Black said:

OK, let's do that then.

Who was Ninjago City aimed at?  How about the rest of the Ninjago Movie line?

Yes I get the point, 16+ for Ninjago city, and 7-8 + for the majority of the rest. Which works if the rest of the line is huge and there is enough for the kids to get into. There is what, about 20+ retail sets for The Ninjago Movie, plus it is backed by advertising  the movie. Would a castle line work where there is one adult aimed castle, then 4-5 small sets with carriages and so on, but no castle aimed at kids. I doubt it. For kids to get into a castle theme, I think it needs a castle they can have. Whereas for kids to get into the Ninjago Movie, they don't need Ninjago City.

[x105Black]

21 minutes ago, MAB said:

Yes I get the point, 16+ for Ninjago city, and 7-8 + for the majority of the rest. Which works if the rest of the line is huge and there is enough for the kids to get into. There is what, about 20+ retail sets for The Ninjago Movie, plus it is backed by advertising  the movie. Would a castle line work where there is one adult aimed castle, then 4-5 small sets with carriages and so on, but no castle aimed at kids. I doubt it. For kids to get into a castle theme, I think it needs a castle they can have. Whereas for kids to get into the Ninjago Movie, they don't need Ninjago City.

I'm of the opinion that there could be both a castle set aimed at adults as well as a castle set aimed at kids in the typical $100 range.  You may not think there is an audience for it, but I think we can only find out by trying.

[MAB]

9 minutes ago, x105Black said:

I'm of the opinion that there could be both a castle set aimed at adults as well as a castle set aimed at kids in the typical $100 range.  You may not think there is an audience for it, but I think we can only find out by trying.

There is no "we" that can find that out. LEGO can find out by trying, or by using market research. But unless it was possible to somehow make money year after year after year (like with the modulars and UCS sets) I doubt they would even try.

And whatever they did, it would not be as good as half the MOCs out there. Lego probably know that too.

[SirBlake]

1 hour ago, MAB said:

Creator expert / modulars are aimed at adults / high teens. UCS SW the same. The other larger sets for the most part are also the same, or they are the flagship set from a movie. I'm not sure a 2000+ piece castle set is a possibility, unless they shift the age range from being aimed at younger to older kids and adults. And I imagine that would hit sales. I'm not sure there are enough older teens / adults wanting to drop money on a large castle compared to the number of families prepared to buy into a castle line. It would also be in competition with the modulars. And presumably if there were still doing a kid castle line at the same time, there would need to be a kid castle, and it would be in competition with that.

There seem to be many things that you’re not sure about here, yet you consistently shoot down every idea that would lead to some sort of Castle in Lego. I asked the question before, but you ignored it so I’ll ask again more directly: what is your goal in this conversation, MAB?

[x105Black]

48 minutes ago, MAB said:

There is no "we" that can find that out. LEGO can find out by trying, or by using market research. But unless it was possible to somehow make money year after year after year (like with the modulars and UCS sets) I doubt they would even try.

And whatever they did, it would not be as good as half the MOCs out there. Lego probably know that too.

Sorry, "they."  And I don't think it has to be a yearly thing.  Don't know why it would.  One per theme (3 years for Castle) would be fine.

I don't think your second is relevant.

44 minutes ago, SirBlake said:

There seem to be many things that you’re not sure about here, yet you consistently shoot down every idea that would lead to some sort of Castle in Lego. I asked the question before, but you ignored it so I’ll ask again more directly: what is your goal in this conversation, MAB?

[3797]

9 minutes ago, x105Black said:

Most definitely. Not just in here but also in other topics.

[Faefrost]

18 hours ago, Lord Insanity said:

I am reminded of this old mash up of The Battle of Helm's Deep (with the Uruk-Hai Army wall section) and Vampyre Castle by Eurobricks user Ragnar_Deerslayer.

That illustrates very well how awesome a solid D2C $250-$300 castle with keep could be made.  After seeing that mash up I took my copies of those sets and lined them up that way.  It is truly epic to see in person.  I still think that mash up looks better than either set by itself.  Considering how well the sets "accidentally" work together, just imagine how good an intentional cohesive design like that could be.

Wow! I really need to do that! 

[MAB]

18 hours ago, SirBlake said:

There seem to be many things that you’re not sure about here, yet you consistently shoot down every idea that would lead to some sort of Castle in Lego.

 

No I don't. It's every idea to have the Castle theme primarily aimed at adults rather than children.

[SirBlake]

1 hour ago, MAB said:

No I don't. It's every idea to have the Castle theme primarily aimed at adults rather than children.

I doubt that your posting in this thread would prove that, but in the interest of being constructive, what is your suggestion to move forward? What's your kid-focused castle theme look like, regardless of what the average AFOL may want?

[rodiziorobs]

21 hours ago, x105Black said:

I'm of the opinion that there could be both a castle set aimed at adults as well as a castle set aimed at kids in the typical $100 range.  You may not think there is an audience for it, but I think we can only find out by trying.

I don't see a need to aim as high as $100, even. One of my favorite sets growing up was this:

It is essentially a wall.

A wall.

Yet the playability was there as if it were a full castle. The wall was hinged in sections so that you could change the shape, and of course had modular connections in the ends--all castle sets at the time did, so you could combine them. I never did, though because I didn't need to.

Inside the wall was a little jail cell, and outside there was the invading force with a catapult. Best of all there were enough figures for each side to actually have a mini-siege.

Modern examples of a similar sets are this:

and this:

They both have similar elements: an invading force, a small jail, but what they lack is the suggestion that there is a larger castle included. They are very finite, closed-off, and self-contained. This isn't a bad thing, but this is where you find a pitfall. @Lyichir brought up how difficult it is to make a self-contained castle, and how small those end up being due to real-life limitations such as piece count. That is why the two newer sets are self-contained. But the answer is that not every set needs all four walls.

I stopped being a kid before those two newer sets were even a concept, but I can't imagine 7-yr old me playing with them as if they were a castle--they would be a remote outpost or a single tower. But, for all play-related purposes the older set I did have was a complete castle. None of my friends ever asked "hey how come you only have half a castle?" or "why can't we just sneak around the side and break open the jail that way, instead of breaking down the door?" The open-endedness of the wall suggested that it stretched on forever, either to encircle the entire kingdom, or to a larger castle, and that's the way my friends and I played it. You wanted in, you stormed the castle.

I think the same approach could be taken with new sets. Make a large gatehouse with some wall extending to the sides and budget it at $40. Kids who can't afford a $100 toy (which was definitely my childhood) still get their castle. Include technic bricks at the back to connect to the $100-$150 castle set for those kids or adults who can afford it. Have the opening to the castle a portcullis or drawbridge only, so that both sets feel like something on their own, but also feel like they don't repeat each other when combined.

I'll even take a step further: those lone tower sets could still be a thing also, but with a modular base, two ways: either pins at the sides, so it can be inserted into a larger castle wall, or pins on the bottom, so I can be added on top of (or inserted into the middle of) an existing tower on the castle.

Both gatehouse and tower sets would easily be standalones. No kid getting them as a present would feel like they only got half a castle. But if they did have more sets--or even multiples of the one--all those different sets could 'play nicely' together to form a larger whole if the child playing with them wanted them to.

I know this idea isn't new--modular castles have been around a long time, Ideas (or Cuusoo) projects have suggested it, but I think the major problem is when we have the perspective that kids won't enjoy a castle set unless it is a "complete" castle with four walls. As long as no set has an obvious "you have to buy parts 3 and 4 separately" feel to it, I think it would be successful and satisfactory.

It seems like this is the kind of approach TLG is taking with the HP sets, where we are hearing that the great hall won't be repeated in the full castle, and that the whomping willow set will connect, etc. From the sound of it, each playset will be completely able to stand by itself and feel complete and unique, but can also be made into part of a larger whole.

I hope they do this with a medieval castle line next time we get one of those. A 2000 piece castle could exist as the flagship of a castle theme while the theme offered plenty of complete play scenarios that would satisfy lower budgets.

Edited March 9, 2018 by rodiziorobs

[Digger of Bricks]

31 minutes ago, rodiziorobs said:

I don't see a need to aim as high as $100, even. One of my favorite sets growing up was this:

Looks like a Creator set if you ask me, and that not a bad thing!