Future Castle Sets?

[x105Black]

1 hour ago, xxix5 said:

So, I brought this up before in a YouTube livestream, but if they do make more Castle sets, I fear it would be filled with stud shooters acting as stone throwers. Now, I could cope with the crossbow being a stud shooter, as long as they recolor it brown or gray or something so it doesn't stick out as much, but other than that they would look just look out of place in a Castle theme. They could bring back the Lion and Dragon knights from most previous Castle themes, but could also have 4 or 5 main characters, like Knights Kingdom and Knights Kingdom II. I owned I think 2 Kingdoms sets 7948 "Outpost Attack" and 7949 "Prison Carriage Rescue." Both from June 2010, I got the 7949 for Easter. Great sets. Would I like to see Castle return? Of course. Will it come back soon? I don't think so. I think in about 10 years it could, but right now, it's highly doubtful.

I'm not too worried about stud shooters, as I don't think they really belong.  That said, I wouldn't have too much of a problem with including them as long as they aren't replacing other standard weapons.

If anything, I'm worried about the new crossbow stud shooters introduced with Elves and Star Wars.  I much prefer the classic crossbows, the new ones look bulky and out of place in a Castle theme :



About the main character idea, I don't really have a problem with named characters in a Castle theme, either.  Things that would irk me about their inclusion would be lots of bright colors (KK2 jelly beans / NK rock candy), or designs too specific to work well for army building.  That said, I do really appreciate that both KK2 and NK gave us new visor molds.  Some of them are fantastic, and I wouldn't mind seeing some of those (or similar) molds return in normal metal colors that would be used for normal knights:





Outpost Attack is a nice small set.  I'd prefer a similar set with more pieces put into the tower rather than a bulky catapult:



Prison Carriage Rescue is honestly one of the smaller and less impressive of the many carriages in the Castle line.  I much prefer the carriage from 2013's Gold Getaway.  Still, I think that either the structure and catapult of Gold Getaway could have been eliminated in favor of a better carriage, or could have been built up to be a more impressive structure (a taller tower or a mine) at a higher price point:



I don't think we will have to wait 10 years for Castle to return.  It will be a shame if this is true, though.

[Aanchir]

I could see stud shooters being used as some sort of magical weapon as we've seen them used in LEGO Elves, Nexo Knights, and Bionicle, but I wouldn't expect them to replace normal crossbows, by virtue of the fact that even kids would have a hard time interpreting studs as crossbow bolts. And I certainly wouldn't expect to see stud shooters replace catapults when including an actual catapult is just as easy and offers the same amount of play value. Even several baddies in Nexo Knights continued to use catapults, and that was a theme where factors like realism or historical accuracy hardly mattered at all.

Launcher functions may be pretty much a given these days, but LEGO still has more than enough launcher styles at their disposal to choose whichever one is most appropriate for a given set. We've seen that in the latest Pirates wave, where the availability of stud shooters actually gave LEGO the option to use them as smaller mortars, as opposed to the silliness of putting full-size cannons on small dinghies like some classic Pirates sets did. Or in The Hobbit sets, where the spring-loaded ballista in Laketown made use of the relatively new 1x4 spring-loaded shooter, instead of having to use bigger and less authentic-looking ammunition like the ballistas in Vikings and Knights' Kingdom II.

Edited February 28, 2018 by Aanchir

[BrickJagger]

5 hours ago, xxix5 said:

So, I brought this up before in a YouTube livestream, but if they do make more Castle sets, I fear it would be filled with stud shooters acting as stone throwers. Now, I could cope with the crossbow being a stud shooter, as long as they recolor it brown or gray or something so it doesn't stick out as much, but other than that they would look just look out of place in a Castle theme. They could bring back the Lion and Dragon knights from most previous Castle themes, but could also have 4 or 5 main characters, like Knights Kingdom and Knights Kingdom II. I owned I think 2 Kingdoms sets 7948 "Outpost Attack" and 7949 "Prison Carriage Rescue." Both from June 2010, I got the 7949 for Easter. Great sets. Would I like to see Castle return? Of course. Will it come back soon? I don't think so. I think in about 10 years it could, but right now, it's highly doubtful.

I know it's fun to catastrophize, but let's not get carried away here. 

[xxix5]

On 28.2.2018 at 10:18 PM, x105Black said:

I'm not too worried about stud shooters, as I don't think they really belong.  That said, I wouldn't have too much of a problem with including them as long as they aren't replacing other standard weapons.

If anything, I'm worried about the new crossbow stud shooters introduced with Elves and Star Wars.  I much prefer the classic crossbows, the new ones look bulky and out of place in a Castle theme :



About the main character idea, I don't really have a problem with named characters in a Castle theme, either.  Things that would irk me about their inclusion would be lots of bright colors (KK2 jelly beans / NK rock candy), or designs too specific to work well for army building.  That said, I do really appreciate that both KK2 and NK gave us new visor molds.  Some of them are fantastic, and I wouldn't mind seeing some of those (or similar) molds return in normal metal colors that would be used for normal knights:





Outpost Attack is a nice small set.  I'd prefer a similar set with more pieces put into the tower rather than a bulky catapult:



Prison Carriage Rescue is honestly one of the smaller and less impressive of the many carriages in the Castle line.  I much prefer the carriage from 2013's Gold Getaway.  Still, I think that either the structure and catapult of Gold Getaway could have been eliminated in favor of a better carriage, or could have been built up to be a more impressive structure (a taller tower or a mine) at a higher price point:



I don't think we will have to wait 10 years for Castle to return.  It will be a shame if this is true, though.

Now, I'm not sure how much Kindgdoms and 2013 Castle sold, (please tell me where to find that info. It doesn't seem to be on Wikipedia.) but going by how I didn't see that many Castle sets on shelves and Nexo Knights being cancelled in it's third or fourth year, I don't see a return to Midevil times for a little while, maybe in 5 years, and it would be sad if we didn't get a real Castle theme for a long time, but what does concern me is that main character figures in Castle would suffer the same fate as Nexo Knights, and, as much as I like Ninjago, it might suffer that "If the TV show doesn't do well, we'll just cancel it along with the sets" thing that seems to have happened with Nexo Knights and if Ninjago Season 8 and 9 don't do well, wave bye bye, and I wouldn't mind that all that much, as I fear the TV show might soon over stay it's welcome. Now, I think giving main characters in a Castle theme can limit the imagination of kids, and I don't mind it, as it could be a good thing if used properly, but I would like to see the main characters come in a cheap pack like maybe a $15 set, but leave most of the regular nights un named, with maybe one or two being named along with the King, Queen, Princess, and Prince. And a troll would be a welcome returning, like the one in "The Adventures of Clutch Powers."

On 28.2.2018 at 11:00 PM, Aanchir said:

I could see stud shooters being used as some sort of magical weapon as we've seen them used in LEGO Elves, Nexo Knights, and Bionicle, but I wouldn't expect them to replace normal crossbows, by virtue of the fact that even kids would have a hard time interpreting studs as crossbow bolts. And I certainly wouldn't expect to see stud shooters replace catapults when including an actual catapult is just as easy and offers the same amount of play value. Even several baddies in Nexo Knights continued to use catapults, and that was a theme where factors like realism or historical accuracy hardly mattered at all.

Launcher functions may be pretty much a given these days, but LEGO still has more than enough launcher styles at their disposal to choose whichever one is most appropriate for a given set. We've seen that in the latest Pirates wave, where the availability of stud shooters actually gave LEGO the option to use them as smaller mortars, as opposed to the silliness of putting full-size cannons on small dinghies like some classic Pirates sets did. Or in The Hobbit sets, where the spring-loaded ballista in Laketown made use of the relatively new 1x4 spring-loaded shooter, instead of having to use bigger and less authentic-looking ammunition like the ballistas in Vikings and Knights' Kingdom II.

I can see why you say that, but I fear LEGO would be shoving play features in your face more than the acceptable amount, and they've been fazing out the regular crossbows lately, so if they continue to do this and completely faze out the other kind of crossbows, it will happen. And I feel that the stud shooters can inhibit kids' imagination, and they don't look nearly as good.

Edited March 6, 2018 by kabel
quoting like this makes a post unreadable!

[Aanchir]

30 minutes ago, xxix5 said:

I can see why you say that, but I fear LEGO would be shoving play features in your face more than the acceptable amount, and they've been fazing out the regular crossbows lately, so if they continue to do this and completely faze out the other kind of crossbows, it will happen. And I feel that the stud shooters can inhibit kids' imagination, and they don't look nearly as good.

Why would stud shooters limit kids' imagination? After all, I've never seen anybody say that about the firing cannons that have been in Pirates sets since the late 80s, and stud shooters are much easier to customize with other bricks or incorporate into MOCs than pirate cannons are.

I also don't get the feeling that the classic crossbows are being phased out. They appeared in four sets just last year! In the first ten years of the crossbow mold's existence (1990–1999) there was only ONE year that it was used in more sets than that. Sure, it's possible that LEGO could phase it out at any time — but there's no more reason to assume that's happening now than there was at many different points in the past.

[MAB]

22 hours ago, x105Black said:

 

 

You sit across a room from an eight year old, each with a cross bow stud shooter and a pile of 1x1 round plates and tell me it is not fun.

[x105Black]

1 hour ago, MAB said:

You sit across a room from an eight year old, each with a cross bow stud shooter and a pile of 1x1 round plates and tell me it is not fun.

I said nothing of fun.  I discussed only my preference.

[Faefrost]

/sigh

after arguing, screaming and throwing tantrums that “Castle must be returning! Now that Nexo Knights has ended!” You start doing the normal Castle fan “not good enough” lists. Castle can only return if “no stud shooters” and “no colorful easily identifiable main characters” only army builders allowed! “And we want only these wheels! Not those ones!” And “don’t you dare give us anything new or different! We want that 20 year old mold or nothing! Fun for kids be damned.,” 

uh huh... 

Do you start to see why maybe, just maybe Lego might not be paying an awful lot of attention to your wants and desires? I mean you are just crying out “give us Classic Castle, but with no play features and nothing that appeals to kids!” You do realize that this is generally not considered a formula for success by a toy company, Right? 

[Grover]

12 minutes ago, Faefrost said:

/sigh

after arguing, screaming and throwing tantrums that “Castle must be returning! Now that Nexo Knights has ended!” You start doing the normal Castle fan “not good enough” lists. Castle can only return if “no stud shooters” and “no colorful easily identifiable main characters” only army builders allowed! “And we want only these wheels! Not those ones!” And “don’t you dare give us anything new or different! We want that 20 year old mold or nothing! Fun for kids be damned.,” 

uh huh... 

Do you start to see why maybe, just maybe Lego might not be paying an awful lot of attention to your wants and desires? I mean you are just crying out “give us Classic Castle, but with no play features and nothing that appeals to kids!” You do realize that this is generally not considered a formula for success by a toy company, Right? 

That's not really what I heard from it, nor is it any different than diehard fans of any other theme out there.   I think it's diehard fans expressing their personal opinions.  I, for one, don't care one way or the other about any of those things.  I do, however, not want to see a mindoll Castle theme, and would like to see more thought put into set designs.  I'm sure you have your personal opinions as to what you want to see as well.

[x105Black]

I'm just listing my preferences.  Stud shooters are unlikely to be used as much as they are in other themes, so I'm not too worried if we get them or not.  And they could be welcome if there are a couple in the theme, they can indeed be fun.  Play features are welcome.  I wasn't trying to say I was against fun, I hope that the theme is fun for kids, it's just that my preference is for the older standard crossbows over the stud shooting kind.

Bright colors are something I've been hoping would not show up, as they have in the last couple of iterations of Castle according to LEGO.  Fantasy Era, Kingdoms Era, and Tolkien sets all had muted color schemes that worked really well, and they were some of the best for a Castle theme.  Nexo Knights and Knights Kingdom 2 were both highly criticized for their brighter color schemes, as was 2013.

Look, any Castle theme that comes back, I'll give it a chance as long as it is actually a Castle theme rather than a sci-fi mashup or some other idea.  Medieval fantasy is what I'm looking for in Castle.  I have preferences as to what that means to me, but I'm not going to say it won't be good enough if it doesn't meet my preferences.  I've never been one of those all or nothing types, as there are many good things that could come out of any Castle theme, including Nexo Knights.  I will continue to push forward my preferences, though, even if we get something that falls close to what I look for, because I'm sure there will be other things I'd like to see.

[SirBlake]

2 hours ago, Faefrost said:

/sigh

The heart wants what it wants, Faefrost. 

[MAB]

On 03/03/2018 at 1:53 AM, Grover said:

and would like to see more thought put into set designs. 

What does this mean? They put lots of thought into all designs, thought about what will sell, what will sell at a particular price point, what is age appropriate, what techniques to use for that age range, what colours to use, how long it will take to build for that age range, what play features there are, how does it fit into the theme, can it still be played with as a stand alone set, ...

Even an apparently simple design can have a lot of thought behind it.

[Grover]

11 hours ago, MAB said:

What does this mean? They put lots of thought into all designs, thought about what will sell, what will sell at a particular price point, what is age appropriate, what techniques to use for that age range, what colours to use, how long it will take to build for that age range, what play features there are, how does it fit into the theme, can it still be played with as a stand alone set, ...

Even an apparently simple design can have a lot of thought behind it.

I probably wasn't clear; I should have said more originality in the set designs.  In my opinion, they treated Castle 2013 as if it were a City line, rehashing old sets (i.e., a million police stations, etc.) but even more thoughtless, using almost identical designs over again.  I would like to see new sets altogether, and, if rehashing, significant changes.  It felt to me like Castle 2013 was phoned in and that they in fact did not spend a lot of time thinking about designs, what would sell, at what price points, etc.  I certainly see those things in Nexo, KK2, and others, even if I personally do not care for the theme or designs, but I did not see that with the Castle 2013 theme.  Hopefully that makes more sense.

And, while expressing personal preferences that are pipe dreams, I'd like to see old grey, old dark grey, and especially old brown.  I can deal with the bley and dark bley, but that reddish brown is ugly to me.  Never happen, but hey, might as well throw it out there.

[x105Black]

5 hours ago, Grover said:

And, while expressing personal preferences that are pipe dreams, I'd like to see old grey, old dark grey, and especially old brown.  I can deal with the bley and dark bley, but that reddish brown is ugly to me.  Never happen, but hey, might as well throw it out there.

Yeah, that's the spirit!  Go for broke!

[Aanchir]

4 hours ago, Grover said:

I probably wasn't clear; I should have said more originality in the set designs.  In my opinion, they treated Castle 2013 as if it were a City line, rehashing old sets (i.e., a million police stations, etc.) but even more thoughtless, using almost identical designs over again.  I would like to see new sets altogether, and, if rehashing, significant changes.  It felt to me like Castle 2013 was phoned in and that they in fact did not spend a lot of time thinking about designs, what would sell, at what price points, etc.  I certainly see those things in Nexo, KK2, and others, even if I personally do not care for the theme or designs, but I did not see that with the Castle 2013 theme.  Hopefully that makes more sense.

And, while expressing personal preferences that are pipe dreams, I'd like to see old grey, old dark grey, and especially old brown.  I can deal with the bley and dark bley, but that reddish brown is ugly to me.  Never happen, but hey, might as well throw it out there.

I think the only Castle 2013 set that directly resembled a Kingdoms set was the main King's Castle, and it seemed that it did that both to retain compatibility and to keep the archetypical attributes kids expect (grey walls, throne room, etc). I do think that they could make a similar castle more unique within those constraints, but I also feel like the decision to keep it similar to the previous castle, whether effective in the long run or not, was a purposeful decision.

Gold Getaway had similar subject matter to previous prison carriage sets, but I don't feel like it felt like an identical design to any I remembered (certainly not to the most recent, Prison Carriage Rescue, which was extremely small and insubstantial). The ruins it included made use of the fairly new angled bricks and uneven colors to give it a crumbling look, something more advanced than I was used to seeing in Castle sets.

The Gatehouse Raid was the first gatehouse set I since at least the year 2000 designed specifically to function as an expansion to the main castle. It also used detailed techniques for the sloped roofs and no big panel or frame elements, which set it apart from the smaller and simpler Kingdoms sets Outpost Attack and Escape from the Dragon's Prison.

Dragon Mountain again used uneven colors and textures to create the impression of an evil tower built atop the ruins of a much older castle, a look I don't think we've seen before or since. I think it was also the first set to include a landing pad/"nest" for a dragon. Not an exceptionally complex build, but not a formulaic design either.

Even Forest Ambush, simple as it was, was fairly unique with its tiny forest hideout and falling tree function. Overall I would describe the 2013 sets as formulaic concepts, but not recycled designs.

Side note, I have been working on a Castle MOC on LDD lately. Still in the early stages, but would anyone here like a castle like this? Or are the color, textures, etc. still too unrealistic or the layout too formulaic?

 

note: if this were a set it'd be MUCH more expensive than any of the recent King's Castles. I believe this WIP that I screencapped this morning was already close to 800 pieces on its own.

[x105Black]

7 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

Side note, I have been working on a Castle MOC on LDD lately. Still in the early stages, but would anyone here like a castle like this? Or are the color, textures, etc. still too unrealistic or the layout too formulaic?

note: if this were a set it'd be MUCH more expensive than any of the recent King's Castles. I believe this WIP that I screencapped this morning was already close to 800 pieces on its own.

I like it.  It uses panels and BURPs in ways that aren't excessive or perfunctory, and has a nice overall color scheme.  It looks like it could be worth the price when finished.

[Aanchir]

19 minutes ago, x105Black said:

I like it.  It uses panels and BURPs in ways that aren't excessive or perfunctory, and has a nice overall color scheme.  It looks like it could be worth the price when finished.

Thanks! Though working on this, I'm also realizing something I never really thought about before with regard to the 2013 King's Castle — it must have been quite a feat for the designer to fit winches for both a portcullis and a drawbridge in the same gatehouse. I'm having a dickens of a time figuring out if there's a good way to do that with mine. Were there any older castle sets that had winches for both of those things?

[BrickJagger]

1 hour ago, Aanchir said:

Thanks! Though working on this, I'm also realizing something I never really thought about before with regard to the 2013 King's Castle — it must have been quite a feat for the designer to fit winches for both a portcullis and a drawbridge in the same gatehouse. I'm having a dickens of a time figuring out if there's a good way to do that with mine. Were there any older castle sets that had winches for both of those things?

I'm pretty sure that the first Castle to have both a drawbridge and a portcullis was the Kingdoms castle from 2010. Everything before that had a drawbridge/door combo, and portcullis/door combo, just a portcullis or just doors. 

Your MOC is excellent by the way. I like the incorporation of the Nexo shields, I think that those will actually show up as details in the next Castle line. It's a little heavy on the piece count for not even being half way done, though. I think 1000 or 1100 is a good target for the full Castle. Could you try that?

[Digger of Bricks]

2 hours ago, Aanchir said:

Side note, I have been working on a Castle MOC on LDD lately. Still in the early stages, but would anyone here like a castle like this? Or are the color, textures, etc. still too unrealistic or the layout too formulaic?

Nah, I like it! Come to think of it, Sand Green/Pearl Gold/Light Bluish Grey is a color scheme that could work nicely for an official in-house Castle theme, and I dig the predominant usage of all those Nexo shields too! 

On a side note, it's cool to see the face behind the SigFig. 

[rodiziorobs]

2 hours ago, Aanchir said:

Side note, I have been working on a Castle MOC on LDD lately. Still in the early stages, but would anyone here like a castle like this? Or are the color, textures, etc. still too unrealistic or the layout too formulaic?

I like the colors, and I really like the rounded effect on the turrets. The Nexo-enhanced battlements look really nice, although I'm sure a lot of the high part count was invested there.

Frankly I am not a fan of the main entrance--I think most of it is that the pillars look too plain next to the detailed walls, and the burps need some dressing up. Maybe the gate is also too broad? I dunno--it seems like the walls and towers are appropriately busy, then the center is devoid of anything. I think you've got a good thing going, I'm just trying to give some honest feedback.

[SirBlake]

1 hour ago, BrickJagger said:

I'm pretty sure that the first Castle to have both a drawbridge and a portcullis was the Kingdoms castle from 2010. Everything before that had a drawbridge/door combo, and portcullis/door combo, just a portcullis or just doors. 

 

6080 King’s Castle and Black Monarch’s castle both have a drawbridge and portcullis. Looking at them on the shelf to verify. :)

 

Love the colors on that MOC, @Aanchir

[The_Cook]

11 hours ago, Aanchir said:

Side note, I have been working on a Castle MOC on LDD lately. Still in the early stages, but would anyone here like a castle like this? Or are the color, textures, etc. still too unrealistic or the layout too formulaic?

I believe this WIP that I screencapped this morning was already close to 800 pieces on its own.

One of the skills of the Lego designers is delivering products as large as Castles in as few bricks as possible.

Most modern castles have been in the 900-1000 piece range, the D2C's of MMV and Joust were 1600. You probably want to reserve at least 100 bricks for minifigs, animals, weaponry and items/tools.

Careful and creative use of panels is a necessary evil if you're trying to create bulk whilst maintaining a piece count; and therefore a price point!

There is an art to designing "buildable" sets that is often lost in these castle forums where fiddly detail is much admired.

[gedren_y]

This is why I fully embrace being a parts buyer, and care little about the actual set designs. Panel parts have their place, and I've come up with a few insert builds for panels with windows. The 1x6x5 corrugated panel could be good for some architectural detail in future Castle builds.

[MAB]

19 hours ago, Grover said:

I probably wasn't clear; I should have said more originality in the set designs.  In my opinion, they treated Castle 2013 as if it were a City line, rehashing old sets (i.e., a million police stations, etc.) but even more thoughtless, using almost identical designs over again.  I would like to see new sets altogether, and, if rehashing, significant changes.  It felt to me like Castle 2013 was phoned in and that they in fact did not spend a lot of time thinking about designs, what would sell, at what price points, etc. 

1

These are the two sets that are most similar, @Aanchir has discussed the other sets above. Even though superficially similar (gateway, walls, turrets), there are differences in the designs - very different towers, different gateway, etc. It is not like they have just switched red for blue like some people make out. Otherwise, these castles have what you expect to see in a castle. Any child wanting a castle set would probably love either of them - it has everything you expect for a big castle. It is grey, it has a gateway, etc. They are good as stand alone sets, but are also compatible with each other. They use similar parts in similar colours. There would have been even more of a backlash if they had changed things too much, such as going to yellow for the castle walls, or making just a gateway, or used different style panels for the walls. It seems people want compatibility across years, but also changes and getting that balance right will never please everyone.

AFOLS: we want more castle that has to be different to everything you've done before but it also has to be similar so that it is compatible or we're not buying it.

LEGO: OK. Different but similar you say. Here's Nexo Knights. One out of two ain't bad.

 

[gedren_y]

My big peeve with Lego castles is the simple walls, towers, and gatehouse approach to what a castle is. Where is the actual keep? There is so much more play value that could be had with more realistic castle sections sets than simple good vs. bad conflicts. They could then appeal to a broader consumer base.