BrickJagger

Future Castle Sets?

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3 hours ago, Aanchir said:

I feel like arguably AFOL Castle fans have been thrown a bone every few years. I mean, it's not as though all Castle fans are going to have an itch that only a non-licensed castle can scratch, and between this year's rumored Hogwarts D2C set, 2016's Disney Castle, and 2013's Tower of Orthanc, LEGO has done a reasonably good job keeping some kind of castle or medieval tower for the adult age set in their catalog for the past several years. Licensed castle sets seem like a pretty savvy way for LEGO to release castle-related products for adults while also "hedging their bets", so to speak — targeting specifically adult fans who want castles for castles' sake may be a risky bet, but a set that ties in with a trendy IP can potentially reach those fans and the many AFOLs and potential AFOLs who are interested more in these specific subjects or brands than in castles in a general sense.

But that's just the thing - for many classic Castle fans, the examples you mentioned aren't throwing us a bone (LotR may be the exception).  Simply making some sort of castle doesn't necessarily scratch that itch for some people.  For a good deal of Castle fans, it's about the factions along with the structures.  Minifigures, and new heraldry to make that castle feel like it belongs with the classic Castle universe.  Just being given a random castle that might be part of another theme isn't necessarily going to make Castle fans get excited.  In all honesty, it can almost come off as a negative, as it could be seen as Lego not understanding the Castle fans, and thinking Hogwarts or Disney Castle will appease them in the absence of a real "Castle" set.

Edited by thetang22

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26 minutes ago, thetang22 said:

In all honesty, it can almost come off as a negative, as it could be seen as Lego not understanding the Castle fans, and thinking Hogwarts or Disney Castle will appease them in the absence of a real "Castle" set.

Exactly.  Similarly, thinking that Nexo Knights will appease both Castle and Space fans seems like a lack of understanding.  Nexo Knights did add a few useful pieces for each, but ultimately missed both marks completely.

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I think that the corporate mindset has been detrimental to themes that are not top financial performers.  If a particular line, such as Castle, does not perform as well as City, then it may be eliminated as the idea behind companies is to maximize profit.  Hence why we see the Friends line and others.  Principles have little to do with the theme choices except when they coincide with avoiding alienation of the most profitable sector.

And yes, I agree with x105 Black that we have not really been thrown a bone.  Sure, if Castle had been on hiatus for a year or two, and during that time we had LotR, then sure, I'd consider that a bone being thrown.  However, with Castle having been gone for 5 years now and getting NK and Elves?  Really?  The Disney castle is OK, but is literally a cartoony castle compared to a fortress.  Hogwarts is appealing to me for parts, not for the set itself.  I'll buy one and use all the parts to make my own MOC castles.  Pretty much all I do anymore except buying old castle sets on Bricklink.

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On 24/02/2018 at 4:06 AM, thetang22 said:

I'd say what makes Castle truly "castle" for many AFOLs is the presence of factions in a way that is familiar to those we grew up with.  Sure, we don't need the exact factions (while that would be awesome), but we want something that feels like it fits in with our existing collections from years back. When I buy a set, that set (or even theme as a whole) doesn't exist in a vaccuum - it will join my existing collection to expand on my overall Lego Castle realm, so to speak.  If a set doesn't include Minifigures, then I have to ask if the building feels appropriate within my overall collection.  A lot of the offerings from other themes like Nexo and Minecraft are simply too stylistically different to have any place within my overall collection.  Elves can to some degree, but the Minidolls definitely don't.

That said, what I really look for is a theme that offers both main selling points for me:  new minifigs that feel appropriate within my existing collection, as well as structures that do as well.  If they don't offer one or the other (preferably both in a new theme), then that theme just doesn't have much value for me.  I hated the buildings and good guys in Nexo, but felt some of the fantasy villains offered something positive.  The problem was that they always came in sets with a bunch of extra junk that just didnt show value for me (junk that helped inflate the price), so it kept me from buying those sets.

This sums up for me the reasons why most of the apparent "bones" that have been thrown (NK, Disney Castle, Minecraft, Harry Potter, Ninjago, CMF, individual parts in sets etc) are irrelevant. A similar story exists regarding Space. I'm a collector of a theme, not of various incompatible subthemes or sets. No bones for me = no money for TLG.:shrug_confused: That's not a protest, that's just how it is - I've bought bugger-all in the last year, yet still reading all these sites most days.

 

 

Regarding "brand loyalty" and the suggestion that someone isn't really loyal to TLG if they only buy within a certain theme: you can be loyal to Ford without ever owning a van, truck, hatchback, ute, sedan, semi-trailer... and if they aren't releasing new wagons when your old one is on the way out, you may consider looking elsewhere or at used vehicles. Doesn't make you disloyal if your wants/needs aren't being met

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3 hours ago, x105Black said:

Exactly.  Similarly, thinking that Nexo Knights will appease both Castle and Space fans seems like a lack of understanding.  Nexo Knights did add a few useful pieces for each, but ultimately missed both marks completely.

I think your missing the boat here.  You make it sound like we haven't had castle for ages.  Nexo Knights is aimed at kids not us afols.  I don't think lego was trying appease us castle and space fans by creating Nexo Knights.  I am an avid lego castle fan love anything castle.  I would love to have any castle sets. I hear what you are saying.  But I am also a lego enthusiast and love to build and create new minifigs.  This is my favorite hobby.  All I've been trying to say is that I use several other themes to build up my castle world, especially when there is no castle theme or lotr theme running.  I use parts and figs from marvel, DC, elves, nexo knights, ninjago and star wars to boost my armies and help create my buildings and landscapes.  You guys make it sound like lego is crapping all over us on purpose and I dont think that is the case.  I just try to enjoy lego and will wait for the next castle theme to come.  In the meantime I find what I need through the other themes.  

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3 hours ago, zoth33 said:

I think your missing the boat here.  You make it sound like we haven't had castle for ages.  Nexo Knights is aimed at kids not us afols.  I don't think lego was trying appease us castle and space fans by creating Nexo Knights.  I am an avid lego castle fan love anything castle.  I would love to have any castle sets. I hear what you are saying.  But I am also a lego enthusiast and love to build and create new minifigs.  This is my favorite hobby.  All I've been trying to say is that I use several other themes to build up my castle world, especially when there is no castle theme or lotr theme running.  I use parts and figs from marvel, DC, elves, nexo knights, ninjago and star wars to boost my armies and help create my buildings and landscapes.  You guys make it sound like lego is crapping all over us on purpose and I dont think that is the case.  I just try to enjoy lego and will wait for the next castle theme to come.  In the meantime I find what I need through the other themes.  

I do the same thing.  If you've followed my posts at all I've talked about Star Wars and Superheroes supplementing my purchasing and providing me with minifigures and parts that can be used in my Castle builds.  That said, we haven't had Castle for ages.  Trying to find what I need through other themes is slim pickings, few and far between.  Only a true Castle theme can give me (and others like me) what I crave.

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The failure of Nexo Knights to be something that can be set alongside other Castle themes looks to be by design. From what I understand, the idea was for Nexo Knights to be the far future of the Castle continuity. It is the speculative futurism of the medieval fantasy realm we call Castle. It just failed to capture that sentiment from existing Castle fans.

Kids seemed to take to Nexo Knights well. The drop-off of interest that has cut the line short seems to be the result of too much saturation of action themes. The other themes having movies didn't help.

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15 hours ago, BrickJagger said:

If you're Lego, you would figure that it would be in your best interest to retain every market you have, no matter how large or small it is. Die-hard fans of the company are good to have at any point in time, and throwing them a bone every once every couple years would be a good idea. Instead they seem to be ignoring those fans, which is not good business.

No. Sometimes it is better to let small markets die if they are not cost effective compared to your other ranges. Remember putting production capacity into one area removes production capacity from another. 

Especially when those die hard fans are likely to complain anyway, no matter what you put out.

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4 hours ago, gedren_y said:

Kids seemed to take to Nexo Knights well. The drop-off of interest that has cut the line short seems to be the result of too much saturation of action themes. The other themes having movies didn't help.

That's the point that many here seem to always seem to miss. The tastes of children; the target audience (and core market) most Lego products (some D2C excepted, eg MF); has changed over the last few decades and will probably continue to evolve. Mark Stafford mentioned, in one of the early Nexo-Knights Q&A's that he did, that Germany was the Castle themes core market; easily outstripping even US sales; traditionally Germany focused on it's medieval roots rather than it's 20th century history. However since the millenium; children across Europe have been brought up on the same set of Japanese inspired animation which mashes up the genres; and more recently the resurgence into popular culture of the Superhero's; consequently they're spending preferences match their viewing habits.

The mash-up that is Nexo-knights must have play-tested well with the children for it to make it to market; if you want someone to blame, blame the kids! Arguments can always be made that one child or another likes classic medieval style castles; but a representative sample must have responded better to the mash-ups than pure medievalism to be where we are today. To remain a going concern TLG needs to follow the wants of the market; regardless of whether that intersects with our niche interests or not.

Maybe tastes will change again; but the lack of any child friendly medieval or fantasy movies; compared to the glut of Superhero movies; means that this is unlikely and that at best we could hope for Castle being a niche release like trains have become.

Edited by The_Cook
Punctuation added for clarity

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7 hours ago, gedren_y said:

From what I understand, the idea was for Nexo Knights to be the far future of the Castle continuity. It is the speculative futurism of the medieval fantasy realm we call Castle. 

Errm, no. I don't mean to nitpick, but if anything, Nexo Knights is a fusion of medieval tropes and our current projections of the future. Back then, technological projections probably never had imagined a digital future, instead focusing on clockwork technology closer to the DaVinci-esque visions of the Renaissance, if anything.

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2 hours ago, Digger of Bricks said:

Errm, no. I don't mean to nitpick, but if anything, Nexo Knights is a fusion of medieval tropes and our current projections of the future. Back then, technological projections probably never had imagined a digital future, instead focusing on clockwork technology closer to the DaVinci-esque visions of the Renaissance, if anything.

You missed the point.  It's not a future based on what medieval people thought would happen.  It's a theoretical future of the world set up in the Castle theme.

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19 minutes ago, x105Black said:

You missed the point.  It's not a future based on what medieval people thought would happen.  It's a theoretical future of the world set up in the Castle theme.

So, it's a projection of the future from our vantage point technologically, only that the culture had reverted back to a feudal system of kings, knights, chivalry, nobles, etc. Right?

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1 minute ago, Digger of Bricks said:

So, it's a projection of the future from our vantage point technologically, only that the culture had reverted back to a feudal system of kings, knights, chivalry, nobles, etc. Right?

Sort of.  It's an imagined future of the Castle theme, imagined by people who are aware of modern technology, including sci-fi future technology.

Yes, it's complicated.

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34 minutes ago, Digger of Bricks said:

So, it's a projection of the future from our vantage point technologically, only that the culture had reverted back to a feudal system of kings, knights, chivalry, nobles, etc. Right?

It could be their future based on our current view / technology. Last time we saw castle, there were still kings and knights, so it may not need to revert back to the feudal system if that never went away.

 

Edited by MAB

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1 hour ago, x105Black said:

Sort of.  It's an imagined future of the Castle theme, imagined by people who are aware of modern technology, including sci-fi future technology.

Yes, it's complicated.

I kind of assumed it was a bunch of LARPers on an acid trip. :-)

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1 hour ago, MAB said:

It could be their future based on our current view / technology. Last time we saw castle, there were still kings and knights, so it may not need to revert back to the feudal system if that never went away.

The Nexo Knights book "The Knight's Code: A Training Guide" has a LOT of details about this history, since it is written as an updated e-edition of a 480-year-old textbook (from before all the technological development that has become the norm by the time the theme takes place). The first 50 or so pages are pretty much verbatim from the original edition of the textbook, with margin notes from the Nexo Knights characters. Of course, it's all still very tongue-in-cheek and plays up the aspects of this fictionalized medieval world that would be most shocking to the young whippersnappers of the present day (for instance, the course curriculum includes "First Aid 101: From Leeches to Dried Toads"). Several of the illustrations also allude to heraldry of past Castle themes, though nothing that's quite as deep a cut as the references to the Yellow Castle in the Nexo Knights TV show itself. Suffice it to say that the world's medieval past is a big part of its backstory, and a big part of its premise is "what if the world of LEGO Castle developed futuristic technology but still held onto a lot of the hallmarks of its traditional society like castles, knights, wizards, and the monarchy?"

It's sort of similar to what the world of Wakanda in Black Panther represents for African culture, although that does something Nexo Knights doesn't in pinpointing a specific resource (Vibranium) that allows Wakanda to both make greater technological advances than any real-world country and resist subjugation by colonial powers. Nexo Knights, by comparison, doesn't dwell much on WHY Knighton developed the way it did — it's just treated as how this fantastical version of history happened to shake out. So not nearly as deep in that respect.

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Exactly. I worked out the general idea without ever bothering with the attendant media, but then again I read modern day preternatural novels. That is why Lego has long insisted that Nexo Knights is Castle. We can now all feel better about ourselves for that understanding.

I still think that the next Castle line we get will have a good dose of the whacky, but I also think the more standard type of sets will be what we will get. I stated earlier that I think Nexo Knights lost its momentum because of other themes treading the same kind of ground. I also think that they will try to extend the upper age range for the theme, which could give us some more realism or just make the color palette more muted.

Edited by gedren_y

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31 minutes ago, gedren_y said:

Exactly. I worked out the general idea without ever bothering with the attendant media, but then again I read modern day preternatural novels. That is why Lego has long insisted that Nexo Knights is Castle. We can now all feel better about ourselves for that understanding.

I still think that the next Castle line we get will have a good dose of the whacky, but I also think the more standard type of sets will be what we will get. I stated earlier that I think Nexo Knights lost its momentum because of other themes treading the same kind of ground. I also think that they will try to extend the upper age range for the theme, which could give us some more realism or just make the color palette more muted.

I don't think target age range really would have a huge impact on how muted the colors are. The colors for Fantasy Era were pretty muted in their own right, and those were aimed at more or less the same age range as subsequent Castle themes (5–12 for the smallest sets, 7–12 for the biggest sets, 12+ for MMV). Whereas Ninjago has generally had pretty bright colors despite being aimed at ages 7–14 for the smallest sets, 9–14 for the biggest,14+ for Temple of Airjitzu, and 16+ for Ninjago City. Even the steampunk-ish Sky Pirate sets that were primarily brown and black had conspicuous Bright Orange accents.

That's not to say that LEGO wouldn't do more muted colors again or wouldn't bump up the target age range from other traditional castle themes, just that there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of correlation there. Bright colors are eye-catching on a shelf for kids and adults of any age, just as kids and adults of any age can appreciate the touch of realism that colors like grey or black lend to stone walls. Personally, I would like to see at least a smattering of bright colors like in Kingdoms, since monochrome builds tend to bore me (part of why I'm no huge fan of Star Wars sets). But as much as I like sets like The Goblin King's Fortress for their eerie, otherworldly atmosphere, it's not as though I would object to grey walls on principle.

Maybe we could get Sand Blue as part of a new color scheme? It's not a color we've seen used very often. I wouldn't want it to be the brightest part of a color scheme, but it could be used to add some variety, like the Sand Yellow foundations of 70404 or the occasional Sand Green brickwork of 9474. I know Nexo Knights used a lot of Sand Blue not long ago, but I think it could be used easily without looking particularly "Nexo".

Edited by Aanchir

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What I meant about the color palette was something more along Vikings, which wouldn't be a bad idea to reboot.

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2 hours ago, Grover said:

I kind of assumed it was a bunch of LARPers on an acid trip. :-)

A pretty apt analysis.

Muted colors would be better, but a touch of red or blue in the heraldry, or green in the plants couldn't hurt.  I just personally prefer the dark palette of colors over the normal versions.  The sand selection is also nice, and a sand blue could work very well if used properly.  Maybe they could even throw in some sand red or sand purple, colors which have been underused.  I wouldn't mind seeing them here and there in a Castle theme.

Edited by x105Black

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1 hour ago, gedren_y said:

What I meant about the color palette was something more along Vikings, which wouldn't be a bad idea to reboot.

A new Vikings theme would be AWESOME, and it wouldn't be surprising to me if LEGO did that at some point seeing as they're a Danish company. They might create a slightly different sort of conflict for it, of course, what with Ninjago being as dragon-heavy as it is, but I still wouldn't mind that.

39 minutes ago, x105Black said:

Muted colors would be better, but a touch of red or blue in the heraldry, or green in the plants couldn't hurt.  I just personally prefer the dark palette of colors over the normal versions.  The sand selection is also nice, and a sand blue could work very well if used properly.  Maybe they could even throw in some sand red or sand purple, colors which have been underused.  I wouldn't mind seeing them here and there in a Castle theme.

Sand Red and Sand Purple have been discontinued for years, and while they could make a surprise reappearance like teal did, I wouldn't count on it. Sand Green and Sand Yellow (Dark Tan) are still active, though. As is Medium Nougat, which we haven't seen much of in Castle despite it being a nice earthy color.

Another color I'd love to see more of in the next Castle theme is Copper Metallic! We've only seen a bit of it in last year's Ninjago sets, but I hope and fully expect to see more of it in the years to come. A Castle theme would be a fun place for LEGO to introduce it for more standard building elements (similar to how they used Warm Gold in the last several Castle themes) rather than just figure accessories.

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In my Fables idea I mentioned doing Beowulf, which has enough creatures and foes for a pretty good run. Beowulf was written in Old English, a variant of Dutch that incorporated elements of the language of the conquered Cornish Celts.

Since the Marvel license includes Thor, I think LEGO would be better served not directly using Norse mythology in such a line of sets. Marvel may decide to use its Norse named characters in future movies, which LEGO would likely make sets for. It would be best to avoid confusion.

In any event, if such a theme were to be made a new log wall panel would need to be designed. The old one no fits the current building format LEGO uses for its play structures.

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6 hours ago, x105Black said:

Sort of.  It's an imagined future of the Castle theme, imagined by people who are aware of modern technology, including sci-fi future technology.

Yes, it's complicated.

Erm... I think you might be reading too much into it. Wasn’t Nexo Knights just a thinly veiled rip off of Visionaries? :)

 

Anyway, personally I thought it was an abomination and I won’t be shedding a tear at its passing (sorry to those who really liked it)

 

As for the future of the castle theme, much as I’d like to see the return of a classic evergreen Castle theme complete with traditional medieval castles and factions, I have my doubts that we’ll ever see that again (much as I’d like to be wrong about that)

 

I think there may be more hope of a general history theme with waves taken from different epochs/civilisations in history - similar to what Playmobil are doing. Personally I’d be very happy with something like that.

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10 minutes ago, ElectroDiva said:

<snip>

As for the future of the castle theme, much as I’d like to see the return of a classic evergreen Castle theme complete with traditional medieval castles and factions, I have my doubts that we’ll ever see that again (much as I’d like to be wrong about that)

 

I think there may be more hope of a general history theme with waves taken from different epochs/civilisations in history - similar to what Playmobil are doing. Personally I’d be very happy with something like that.

Base it largely on the heroic tales of the region and era, historical and mythological, and you have my Fables idea in a nutshell.

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11 minutes ago, ElectroDiva said:

Erm... I think you might be reading too much into it. Wasn’t Nexo Knights just a thinly veiled rip off of Visionaries? :)

Anyway, personally I thought it was an abomination and I won’t be shedding a tear at its passing (sorry to those who really liked it)

As for the future of the castle theme, much as I’d like to see the return of a classic evergreen Castle theme complete with traditional medieval castles and factions, I have my doubts that we’ll ever see that again (much as I’d like to be wrong about that)

I think there may be more hope of a general history theme with waves taken from different epochs/civilisations in history - similar to what Playmobil are doing. Personally I’d be very happy with something like that.

It was indeed a Visionaries ripoff.  And I'm not going to be sorry it is gone, either.  I wasn't a fan of Visionaries in the 1980's, and I wasn't a fan of Nexo Knights in the 2010's.

On the other hand, I do think that Castle will make a return.  It may be a little longer than originally expected due to an early end for Nexo Knights and a full-blown Wizarding World theme, but I do think that a Castle theme will be back before too long.  And I'd much prefer that to a general history theme.

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