Future Castle Sets?

[x105Black]

1 hour ago, Grover said:

I think about things like Mask and Voltron from my childhood.  I loved those as a kid, but even with the Voltron Ideas being produced at some point, would I buy it?  Only if I had an abundance of money and nothing else to buy at the time.  Maybe not even then if I could get a good deal on bulk bricks elsewhere to help with my MOCs.  Those were themes that I really loved and now I don't care.  Probably partly to do with the fact that I am no longer inundated with these themes.

I am still a huge fan of so many things from childhood.  You mention MASK and Voltron, and those were huge cartoons for me.  I'll add He-Man, Transformers, GI Joe, Thundercats, TMNT, and more to the list, because I'm still a big fan of all of this stuff.  And I'll be buying 2 Voltron sets while watching the reboot on Netflix.  This doesn't even touch on comic books, movies, video games, and other sources of great media from my childhood that I still love today.  For example, I'd love to see The Dark Crystal, Neverending Story, Labyrinth, or similar films get sets (probably through Ideas, if at all).  I'd love to see the Legend of Zelda, Final Fantasy, or other similar games get sets.

Still, as mentioned by @fred67 above, I'd much prefer to see an entire Castle theme that is generic, and that has enough great pieces and minifigures that I can use it to represent all of those things.

[Grover]

2 minutes ago, x105Black said:

Still, as mentioned by @fred67 above, I'd much prefer to see an entire Castle theme that is generic, and that has enough great pieces and minifigures that I can use it to represent all of those things.

I think that's one of the things that I loved about the generic Castle themes--you can use it to make whatever you want.  Themed series, for instance, like this new Batman, are not as useful to me.  The Rubber duck float ring is really cool, but it has a batman mask.  Some of the characters are useful for other things, but they have batman logos on it, making it useless for anything other than that one specific figure.

Maybe I'm old school, but I even prefer the generic smiley faces on the characters.  I'm OK with other faces on most of the sets, but I really want to see the classic smiles on the Creator Modular sets again.

[Hive]

This toyline seems fairly big and present in most toy stores here in Denmark:

https://www.toysrus.dk/knights

It's all about knights, castles, dragons and such. Seems to be targeted kids aged 5-8.

 

Then there's the Schleich line, which seems fairly big as well:

http://www.schleichtoystore.com/Collection.php?Collection=Knights

 

Again with knights, castles, trolls and all that great fantasy stuff. From ages 3 and up.

 

And as has been mentioned before, Playmobil has a great Knights line as well:

http://www.playmobil.us/shop-online/shop/knights

 

Knights, castles, trolls, dragons... again with all the good stuff. Ages 4 and up.

 

So certainly, children still appear to be craving a "Castle" theme. Plenty of other toy companies does it, with seemingly success. So why not LEGO?

[Shroffy123]

I'm sure we will get a new wave of castle on 2019 

[Aanchir]

1 hour ago, Hive said:

This toyline seems fairly big and present in most toy stores here in Denmark:

https://www.toysrus.dk/knights

It's all about knights, castles, dragons and such. Seems to be targeted kids aged 5-8.

Then there's the Schleich line, which seems fairly big as well:

http://www.schleichtoystore.com/Collection.php?Collection=Knights

Again with knights, castles, trolls and all that great fantasy stuff. From ages 3 and up.

And as has been mentioned before, Playmobil has a great Knights line as well:

http://www.playmobil.us/shop-online/shop/knights

Knights, castles, trolls, dragons... again with all the good stuff. Ages 4 and up.

So certainly, children still appear to be craving a "Castle" theme. Plenty of other toy companies does it, with seemingly success. So why not LEGO?

Could be a matter of how much global reach that interest in Castle has… most of those brands are decidedly less well-known in the US than LEGO is (some toy stores carry Playmobil and Schleich, but far fewer department stores or bookstores do).

That said, I don't think it's at all implausible that there's enough demand out there to support some type of traditional Castle theme, just not necessarily on the scale of the big themes like Ninjago, Friends, or City (which have had years to prove they can support dozens of sets on a yearly basis). I mean, as I've pointed out before, there have been loads of sets containing things like castles and dragons lately, even if not always in boy-targeted, traditional-minifigure-based medieval fantasy themes.

And if LEGO really thought that Castle sets weren't cool anymore, why would they have bothered making their 2016 "big bang" theme Castle-inspired on any level? It's not as though some abstract loyalty to their classic themes overrides their desire to make money. The idea that Nexo Knights was somehow motivated by a sense that kids no longer cared about Castles implies that LEGO felt some pressing need to take something that's not cool anymore and MAKE it cool, whereas in reality the LEGO Group's development strategy for almost all themes is to start with elements kids are already known to like and understand. LEGO certainly didn't create Ninjago based on some weird idea that kids didn't care about ninjas, or Chima based on the idea that kids didn't care about ferocious animals.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Aanchir

[Agent Kallus]

3 hours ago, Hive said:

This toyline seems fairly big and present in most toy stores here in Denmark:

2 hours ago, Aanchir said:

Could be a matter of how much global reach that interest in Castle has… most of those brands are decidedly less well-known in the US 

Now this would be a controversial idea but they could always made it a region exclusive line, people in Europe and Asia (and the world island in general) have a deeper cultural connection to the romanticized tales of sword swinging heroes and villains. I live in England but Wales next door (and England but less so) is littered with castles and with media like horrible histories and Raven it is much more part of the status quo than I presume it is across the pond. i have no data but I can say with conviction that castle sells better in Europe than the US. It wouldn't be ideal for the Americans but there' always the internet shopping.

 

Edited February 11, 2018 by Agent Kallus

[Digger of Bricks]

33 minutes ago, Agent Kallus said:

Now this would be a controversial idea but they could always made it a region exclusive line, people in Europe and Asia (and the world island in general) have a deeper cultural connection to the romanticized tales of sword swinging heroes and villains. I live in England but Wales next door (and england but less so) is littered with castles and with media like horrible histories and Raven it is much more part of the status quo than I presume it is across the pond. i have no data but I can say with conviction that castle sells better ion europe than the US. It wouldn't be ideal for the Americans but there'slways the internet shopping.

^This^

1 hour ago, Aanchir said:

LEGO certainly didn't create Ninjago based on some weird idea that kids didn't care about ninjas, or Chima based on the idea that kids didn't care about ferocious animals.

I swear, Chima must have been a reboot of Fabuland gone way off course. 

[BrickJagger]

1 hour ago, Aanchir said:

And if LEGO really thought that Castle sets weren't cool anymore, why would they have bothered making their 2016 "big bang" theme Castle-inspired on any level? It's not as though some abstract loyalty to their classic themes overrides their desire to make money. The idea that Nexo Knights was somehow motivated by a sense that kids no longer cared about Castles implies that LEGO felt some pressing need to take something that's not cool anymore and MAKE it cool, whereas in reality the LEGO Group's development strategy for almost all themes is to start with elements kids are already known to like and understand. LEGO certainly didn't create Ninjago based on some weird idea that kids didn't care about ninjas, or Chima based on the idea that kids didn't care about ferocious animals.

This is a great point. Nexo was on the drawing board for Castle since 2009. It ended up coming out in 2016 because there was an opening for it due to a lack of Castle themes. Castle is pretty much always going to be popular in some form, as opposed to Western and Pirates, which have fallen in and out of favor. 

[Bricked1980]

I don't agree with any suggestions that kids are no longer interested in castles or that they're not "cool" enough for kids anymore.

When it comes to children building and constructing things in general, castles as a concept is just one of those things that kids love. Take them to the beach and they build castles out of sand. Give them an empty cardboard box and they will build a Castle from it. Give a child a stack of building blocks and nine times out of ten the first thing they'll do is stack them in to a tower or something that resembles a basic castle.

Castles are just one of those topics that works so well with construction toys. Surely lego as the biggest construction toy company in the world wouldn't abandon the idea of castles altogether - would they?

Edited February 11, 2018 by Bricked1980

[Artanis I]

2 hours ago, Agent Kallus said:

Now this would be a controversial idea but they could always made it a region exclusive line, people in Europe and Asia (and the world island in general) have a deeper cultural connection to the romanticized tales of sword swinging heroes and villains.

Those Americans sure love their guns...

[Grover]

Ironically, I have always found that it has been the Europeans who are more excited about the Wild West than Americans.  There's also a fascination with Route 66 and old American cars over there.

[zoth33]

I'm american and I love castles and fantasy adventure.  I read LOTR, Dragonlance, and other fantasy novels. I have always loved building castles.  I even have quite a few books about castles.  I also like Star Wars and Science-fiction but not as much as I like castle and fantasy adventure.  But I do own some guns too .  I guess its what your into.  I have plenty of friends that are into Skyrim and Warcraft etc.  I think a lot of the younger generation have more interest in their phones and social media.  There is definately an interest in fantasy these days with the popularity of GOT,  The Shanara Chronicles, and games like Skyrim and Warcraft.  The Fact that amazon paid a ton of money for LOTR must say something for the genre.  I hope lego sees this and developes something new and interesting soon.  

[Aanchir]

5 hours ago, Agent Kallus said:

Now this would be a controversial idea but they could always made it a region exclusive line, people in Europe and Asia (and the world island in general) have a deeper cultural connection to the romanticized tales of sword swinging heroes and villains.

Hey now, I love sword-slinging heroes and villains… after all, my three favorite themes are Bionicle, Elves, and Ninjago.

Region-exclusive lines are something LEGO has done before (Dark Forest, Roboforce, and the original Aquaraiders were exclusive to the Americas as far as I know), but they haven't done as much of that in a while. And in those cases, those region-exclusive lines were smaller than globally released Castle and Space themes, not larger. After all, why invest as much in developing a theme that will generate smaller returns?

The most recent attempts at major region-exclusive lines I can think of (i.e. more than individual minifigures series or promotional products) were Dino Attack (intended as an American-only release, but then re-imagined as Dino 2010 for the rest of the world) and Vikings (originally intended as a Europe-only release but then released in America as well). Again, though, these each launched with about five sets each, and were short-lived. At that point I'm not sure there's really any advantage a region-exclusive theme offers over even a small-scale global theme like Kingdoms, Castle 2013, or Pirates 2015.

Worth noting that my comments on regional interest aren't referring only to some Europe vs. US divide. Lately LEGO's been very interested in expanding their presence in Asia. I'm not really in-tune enough with Asian cultures enough to really know what sorts of brands and genres are popular with kids there, though.

3 hours ago, Bricked1980 said:

Castles are just one of those topics that works so well with construction toys. Surely lego as the biggest construction toy company in the world wouldn't abandon the idea of castles altogether - would they?

They certainly haven't so far. Between Disney, Elves, Nexo Knights, Minecraft, etc. there have been quite a few castles in sets lately, even if they aren't branded as "LEGO Castle".

[Digger of Bricks]

9 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

Worth noting that my comments on regional interest aren't referring only to some Europe vs. US divide. Lately LEGO's been very interested in expanding their presence in Asia. I'm not really in-tune enough with Asian cultures enough to really know what sorts of brands and genres are popular with kids there, though.

If Lego were interested in developing an in-house property that had those demographics in mind, perhaps they may draw from Sci-fi/Fantasy concepts prevalent in Magna/Anime? That's the only property/genre I can think of when it comes to non-western material, but even that has a bit of a significant following at least here in the United States.

But hey, come to think of it, maybe Lego's targeted focus on Asian audiences may be our ticket for a new in-house Space theme that isn't Star Wars. 

[fred67]

Well.... I could wait for a new castle line if they were to do a feudal Japan line, but that's a tiny fraction of the "Asian Market."

I think we all need to just keep in mind that it doesn't matter if medieval themes are "evergreen" in the non-LEGO world; with all the fantasy worlds, books, shows, and modern historical dramas, there is always interest in "castle."  The problem for us is that it doesn't have to be popular for TLG to make a castle set, it has to be MORE popular than whatever else they come up with.  More or less, they can only make some fixed number of sets every year.  There's production capacity, limited store shelf space, and tons of other reasons they can't just make everything for everybody.  Understanding that, then you understand they would rather make another  "Nexo Knights," even if it only sells even 5 or 10% more than a traditional "castle" theme.

Some argue TLG is abandoning it's roots with all the licensed themes, but as long as you can buy a box of bricks there will always just be just plain old building with LEGO. That doesn't mean they aren't alienating some customers - I feel like they may be losing hardcore fans for fleeting ones, which will bite them in the long run but, again, what do I know?

 

 

[gedren_y]

I have read many of your arguments, and from a European perspective some of them do hold water. The American market, from my perspective though, some of those don't really apply.

1) Castles in the European style are not part of most American population centers. Yes, young American children do get exposure to the idea of a castle, but the farther away we get in time and experience the general understanding of what those structures are supposed to look like dissipates. The American educational system doesn't help in this regard, because subjects like history tend to be very locally generalized until the early teens.

From my own experience, the only thing close to a castle in my area is the fort at St. Augustine. Because the US is so large, and castle-like structures are so few, that this isn't going to be widespread among the younger Americans.

Most of the popular media properties that have been discussed are aimed at teens and above, and that is the age when realism tends to take precedence. That is the age that most of us learn about the reality of castles. It is that kind of realism that most of us AFOLs are clamoring for.

2) Disney isn't the monolithic giant in American children's entertainment it once was. This decline became evident in the 90s with the launch of Nickelodeon. The largest popular historical/fantasy cartoon properties in America for the target demographic Lego Castle is aimed at in the last decade have been DreamWorks properties, namely Shrek and How To Train Your Dragon. Both of these rely on characters that have diverse body types, so any figs based on these would end up like a number of the Toy Story figs.

And for live-action, Harry Potter is Warner Brothers. Even LEGO's own animated movies aren't Disney.

Some are going to mention Frozen and Tangled, but that target demographic is already being covered with a minidoll line. Most fans of the classic Disney properties that get refreshed over the years are going to favor the minidolls because they look more like the characters than the minifig. Even the Duplo figs for these properties look less like the classic Duplo figs.

People mention the Disney castle set, but again that isn't the target demographic. I would hope some of the techniques used could be applied to a Castle theme, but you have to consider LEGO's age range standards when it comes to build complexity.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

The point of my above arguments is to say that in America the Lego Castle theme on its own could not sustain the kind of long term shelf space that it did in the 80s and 90s without something that the target demographic can immediately relate to. That is what I meant by 'hook'.

Without the 'Big Bang' secondary media support, a more generic Castle theme would need to capitalize on something already existing in popular American media, or as part of the overall experience of children in the target age group. European children are more likely to have experienced real castles in their everyday lives.

Elves relies on the trope of a modern character having adventures in a fantasy land, but even there it has media support.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Now that my American-centric argument has been made, I'll move on to other issues.

Elves is still popular, and because of this I doubt that a fantasy elements reliant Castle theme will be forthcoming. The greater difference between Elves and Nexo Knights is why the themes could run concurrently.

The fact that other toy companies perennially produce generic castle themes is not likely going to be an incentive for LEGO to do the same. In fact the level of competition in the genre (which is far greater than it used to be) means that LEGO is more likely to step outside the norm for its Castle themes, hence Nexo Knights.

For these reasons I do not believe that the next Castle theme will hold the appeal AFOLs are looking for. Something so standard, with the parts that we want for building, and the nostalgic nods to the past we crave, is not likely to garner enough appeal to stand out from the competition with the chief target demographic. It needs something more, something different, for a theme to last beyond a single wave.

[Digger of Bricks]

5 minutes ago, gedren_y said:

The largest popular historical/fantasy cartoon properties in America for the target demographic Lego Castle is aimed at in the last decade have been DreamWorks properties, namely Shrek and How To Train Your Dragon. Both of these rely on characters that have diverse body types, so any figs based on these would end up like a number of the Toy Story figs.

Well, Playmobil though didn't resort to that for their own How to Train Your Dragon line, and I certainly hope Lego does the same, eyes, body type, and all.

[x105Black]

2 hours ago, gedren_y said:

....

I respectfully disagree.

[SirBlake]

I have to respectfully disagree with the notion that American kids are not interested in castles simply because we have so few. It may be because we have so few that they are inherently fascinating.

They are all over our media and source of mystery and intrigue. Either of our opinions is essentially anecdotal, but I have always been interested in them and Lego helped build that interest.

[Agent Kallus]

30 minutes ago, SirBlake said:

I have to respectfully disagree with the notion that American kids are not interested in castles simply because we have so few.

I didn't mean to say that american kids are disinterested in castles just that European kids are interested, I mean cowboys seem to be popular over here but knights and pirates are just a lot more popular. I have no evidence for this and i could be wrong but if I though I was wrong then I wouldn't have written this.

[SirBlake]

32 minutes ago, Agent Kallus said:

I didn't mean to say that american kids are disinterested in castles just that European kids are interested, I mean cowboys seem to be popular over here but knights and pirates are just a lot more popular. I have no evidence for this and i could be wrong but if I though I was wrong then I wouldn't have written this.

Knights and castles are more popular here than cowboy stuff. And that means a lot coming from me since I'm in Fort Worth, Texas. I live in the cultural epicenter of cowboy culture and I feel confident in saying (guessing) that if there were a western theme sitting on the shelves next to a castle theme, the castle theme would sell better.

[Hive]

While I'm sure we can all agree that the American market is an important one for LEGO, I'd like to remind some people that there are other markets as well. There's no reason to somehow try to bind LEGO's entire marketing strategy on what Americans and Americans alone want.

[gedren_y]

I'm not saying that the concept isn't popular, just that European children get exposure to the reality of castles and their history at an earlier age than American children. American children, particularly those from western plains states, will have a greater exposure to the reality of the American westward expansion than European children. The romanticized fantasy of castles are what would best appeal in the American market, and the romanticized idea of the Old West is likely why the Western sets did better in Europe.

I understand that LEGO has a global market, and makes decisions on things based on more than the American market appeal. LEGO has enough of a history of marketing and set design differences based on region, though, that the varying levels of everyday cultural exposure of the desired consumers is something to consider.

My other point was that Disney isn't as ubiquitous in its popular culture exposure as it had been in decades past. The children's entertainment industry is too diverse now that Disney isn't able to provide a country-wide, and especially not global, shared common interest in a castle related media that isn't already being served by Elves and Disney Princesses. (We want minifigs, not minidolls!)

You have to look farther afield to find something castle related that can garner broad spectrum appeal. Many of these, though, are aimed at an age range that starts at the high end of LEGO's core age range. This does not help matters when you have to consider LEGO's acceptability standards.

This, added to the fact that there is greater direct competition now, makes me think that Castle lines like those in the 80s and 90s would do poorly on shelves alongside other Lego sets. The biggest evidence of this is Castle 2013.

LEGO needs to create a Castle theme with a certain level of the fantastical. Hopefully without too much that we Castle AFOLs will have no use for, the chief complaint we've had against Nexo Knights. If it were not for the level of commitment Lego Batman has, I would have suggested a resurrection of the Fright Knights concept, with a much improved set design.

Edited February 12, 2018 by gedren_y

[Grover]

5 hours ago, SirBlake said:

Knights and castles are more popular here than cowboy stuff. And that means a lot coming from me since I'm in Fort Worth, Texas. I live in the cultural epicenter of cowboy culture and I feel confident in saying (guessing) that if there were a western theme sitting on the shelves next to a castle theme, the castle theme would sell better.

I respectfully disagree with Gedren_y and agree with SirBlake on the castle theme interest.  My experience is very much in line with SirBlake's: US kids are more interested in castle than western themes.  Maybe that wasn't the case in the 1950s, but it's certainly not now.  I never invested in any of the western themes and don't know any of my friends who did, but almost all of them were heavily interested in the castle line of Lego.  A few were interested in Space as well, although I think space is kind of screwed with the SW theme that seems ongoing (that's a whole different thread, though).  I do think that a well-thought out castle theme (not just rehashes of the same castles) would be sustainable for 20+ years.  Just think about how sustainable EQ/WOW/Skyrim/Witcher etc. has been for years.  Sure, it will take some effort to make things enticing, but that's the same issue they have with the City line now.  I think that Castle 2013 was a bunch of rehashes of old sets which is why it didn't do well.  How many King's Castles have been released over the years?  Meh.  I think that a great idea would have been to take a shot at civilian life, some foresty factions like they had done in the past with the forestmen and wolfpack, and they would have fared much better.  How about stand alone tower?  A windmill?  A farmhouse?  A public fountain?  A theater?  Tons of ideas they ignored, and instead we got the forest ambush, gold getaway, the gatehouse, and the king's castle.  I did like the dragon mountain, personally, and didn't feel that it was too much of a rehash of old themes, but there was so much left on the table it was disappointing.  I think you could take any theme and make it do poorly with unimaginative sets.

I do, however, agree with Gedren_y that Disney is not the force it once was.  I think that mass media has eaten a lot of the market share, although the reasoning is speculation on my part.  I don't know if that is good or bad for castle; sure, Disney uses a lot of castles in their stories, but their more modern ones are starting to get away from them (Pocohantas, Moana, etc.), so maybe not.  It's also not to say that there aren't competitors that could have greater use of castles.

In any case, we can argue until we're blue in the face, but I think we will have to wait until we see what Lego comes out with to be for certain we're getting another castle theme.  I am all in favor of discussing what we'd like to see and throwing ideas out there for TLG to pick up, in as much as they do or don't read these forums.

It is also my opinion that the historic forums have some of the best MOCers on the boards.  Their incredibly detailed builds are pretty exciting and almost all expertly done.  It can't hurt when all the MOCs are awesome!

 

[Faefrost]

On 2/10/2018 at 7:27 AM, Bricked1980 said:

 

These are the themes that lego will be most fondly remembered for. I wonder if today's kids will still be logging in to eurobricks in 30 years time to remember and discuss their old batman the movie lego sets, I doubt they will to be honest.

Sure they will. Just as the kids from way back still fondly talk about their Mego action figures and playsets. All the Super Heroes, Star Trek etc. or the group after them raves about those original Kenner Star Wars toys. G1 Transformers anyone? While I don’t think the Lego Movie or Lego Batman Movie will be some future nostalgic nerds Holy Grail, the Ninjago stuff certainly will.