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THERIZE

powered bogies, vertical or horizontal? what is better?

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Hi guys, I have been trying to make some trains (generally diesel) and a problem that I have always found is powering. for a steam locomotive this is usually pretty simple because of the lack of articulation but wel, bogies are articulated and motors are mounted in the build itself. my question was, how does gearing react to this? and what is the handiest for compact solutions? vertical or horizontal?

with vertical you get this:

8419997836_654202a049_z.jpglego 6L train bogie by alterlegotechnic, on Flickr

how could something like this be used in a locomotive? would the motor stick loosely in the chassis and what about a vertical motor like this (http://www.brickshel...16/cam06194.jpg) will there happen something in corners? like that the would go faster or some?

and with Horizontal you get this

15395914733_51b35a1556_z.jpgIowa Pacific SLRG 515/518 Mechanics by wildchicken_13, on Flickr

how can gearing do this? i mean the rotating bogie, what happens to the gears in it?

obviously

could 2 M motors be needed for a small train (around 4 cars) or will it fail? I heard something about a V2 receiver? I have a V1 (I think) and that a normal one won't be able to give enough power to both?

What is better? XL or M? when will a XL be needed?

so in one sentence: vertical or horizontal? what happens to gearing and what is easier when using normal motors?

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With both, you need this piece http://brickset.com/parts/design-73603

to connect the bogies to the locomotive body.

This way, the bogies can turn independently from the direction that the drive axle is turning.

There will probably be some resistance when the bogies turn in an opposing direction to the drive axle.

Hope this helps!

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From what I've read a motor mounted directly on the bogie gives the best performance. In the other examples the rotation of the motor tries to turn the bogie, this can cause derailments when used on 9V rails. See Railbricks 7.

In this way, the XL motor can be used as a pivot point and as far as I know don't need a connection to the locomotive itself, but can only be used on locomotives of 7 wide and larger.

As for 2 M motors: I think that should be sufficient for four cars. It depends on the size/weight of those cars as well. ;)

XL is more powerful, but slower.

I have a question related to this topic: with a vertical motor, can the driving axle alone be used as a pivot point or is a turntable really neccesary?

Edited by Richie

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I have a question related to this topic: with a vertical motor, can the driving axle alone be used as a pivot point or is a turntable really neccesary?

I didn't use a turnable when I mounted a M-mount vertical with the Technic axle through one of the holes in the train base plate. It wlll work without it. I think it is a stronger connection if you use the turnable too. I was onlly held on by a technic axle in the motor and gear in the bogie frame. Also the M-motor put some turning force on the bogie. I replaced it with a PF train motor. Easier that way. :classic:

picture_21212.jpg

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With both, you need this piece http://brickset.com/parts/design-73603

to connect the bogies to the locomotive body.

This way, the bogies can turn independently from the direction that the drive axle is turning.

There will probably be some resistance when the bogies turn in an opposing direction to the drive axle.

I have nothing of value to add to this, but really wanted to say Thank You! because I'd never thought to use that old turntable in that manner. Excellent! :sweet:

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I just did a lot of research about this myself for my next steam engine.

http://www.eurobrick...opic=113958&hl=

Good discussion about torque and speed here as well as discussion about the V2 IR sensor and battery packs.

Basically if you only want to pull 4 cars 2 M motors with v1 IR sensor and 1 battery pack should be good to go.

The V2 sensor can supply 3 times as much power through its inner gadgets than the V1 sensor can.

The rechargable battery box can supply more power than a AAA battery box can.

I'll just make a short list of the answers I got out of my thread:

2 M motors, 1 V1 IR sensor, 1 Battery box

2 XL motors, 1 V1 IR sensor, 1 battery box

2 L motors, 1 V2 sensor, 1 battery box

4 L motors, 2 V1 IR sensors OR 1 V2 IR sensor, 1 rechargable battery box OR 2 AAA battery boxes. ( 4 will run with 1 V1 IR sensor and 1 AAA battery box, but you will not get full performance out of them.)

Edited by someguy

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Hi guys, I have been trying to make some trains (generally diesel) and a problem that I have always found is powering. for a steam locomotive this is usually pretty simple because of the lack of articulation but wel, bogies are articulated and motors are mounted in the build itself. my question was, how does gearing react to this? and what is the handiest for compact solutions? vertical or horizontal?

<snip>

could 2 M motors be needed for a small train (around 4 cars) or will it fail? I heard something about a V2 receiver? I have a V1 (I think) and that a normal one won't be able to give enough power to both?

What is better? XL or M? when will a XL be needed?

2 M motors driving the small wheels at 1:1 reduction should be enough to pull twenty cars (this was the setup used in Commander Wolf's RF-16). In general, Ms are way easier to hide in a model and will give you sufficient pulling power. In basically all cases weight, rather than torque, is what limits the pulling power of a locomotive.

On No. 2096, I have M motors mounted vertically powering bogies with no turntables (no room), and I've never had any problems. The correct arrangement really depends on the shape of the space inside your locomotive. You might also consider more complex setups with gearing. I would strongly vouch for building a "sketch" of the geartrain and making sure it works (this reveals things that LDD doesn't -- for example, the locomotive in your first post with three-axle trucks won't actually go around curves!).

I have nothing of value to add to this, but really wanted to say Thank You! because I'd never thought to use that old turntable in that manner. Excellent! :sweet:

The hole in some of the older turntables isn't big enough to pass a cross axle. The combination of this piece and this one should produce a thinner turntable.

Edited by jtlan

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There are two ways to mount a motor vertically. The first of which is to have the motor fixed inside the locomotive. The second is to have the motor fixed to the bogie, and loosely inside the locomotive, allowing it to pivot with the bogie. The first option functions the same as a sideways mounted motor. The torque of the motor will make the bogie want to spin in one direction, and may cause derailment. The second option eliminates this problem, but makes it difficult to change gear ratios.

On my recently completed Amtrak Cascades (Haven't taken photos yet), I used two L-Motors fixed vertically to the bogies. The collar of the motor sits in an octagonal hole (using cheese slopes), which allows it to spin freely, while still supporting the weight of the locomotive.

20961094188_d8b8991d41.jpgVertical L Motor Mount by David Hensley, on Flickr

David Hensley.

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Funny enough, I've tried both ways on the same engine (At different times, though). Vertical is really nice, because if you get a good solid truck/bogie design then it's really compact and you can use XL motors as swivel points. You don't need a turntable, just have a 5x5 stud hole and put a couple of those technic ball pins on the motor to keep it from falling out. The downside to vertical is that it's really difficult to change the gearing without going into more complicated designs.

Horizontal is a lot easier to change the gearing, but takes a little more work to reinforce the drive to keep gears from slipping or bricks from separating, at least when dealing with the power that is known as XL motors. It does indeed try to rotate the truck/bogie a bit this way, but I haven't found any problems operationally from it yet as the amount of force exerted trying to rotate the truck itself hasn't seemed very strong. I'm going to guess that longer wheelbases are going to be more likely to have this problem, and running on 9V track could bring it up as well; but you shouldn't have any problems with PF track so long as your gear train spins freely.

I don't believe either method is inherently better, it really just boils down to making sure your gearing is very well reinforced and whichever one works best in the amount of space you have. If you're doing an XL motor, make strength your primary goal because these things will absolutely tear through any design that allows them to.

I just did a lot of research about this myself for my next steam engine.

http://www.eurobrick...opic=113958&hl=

Good discussion about torque and speed here as well as discussion about the V2 IR sensor and battery packs.

Basically if you only want to pull 4 cars 2 M motors with v1 IR sensor and 1 battery pack should be good to go.

The V2 sensor can supply 3 times as much power through its inner gadgets than the V1 sensor can.

The rechargable battery box can supply more power than a AAA battery box can.

I'll just make a short list of the answers I got out of my thread:

2 M motors, 1 V1 IR sensor, 1 Battery box

2 XL motors, 1 V1 IR sensor, 1 battery box

2 L motors, 1 V2 sensor, 1 battery box

4 L motors, 2 V1 IR sensors OR 1 V2 IR sensor, 1 rechargable battery box OR 2 AAA battery boxes. ( 4 will run with 1 V1 IR sensor and 1 AAA battery box, but you will not get full performance out of them.)

Still not quite, I'm afraid. I'd say it's more like this -

2 M Motors / 2 XL Motors / 1 L Motor = 1 v1 Sensor, 1 battery box

2 L Motors = 1 v2 Sensor, 1 Battery Box

4 M Motors / 4 XL Motors = 2 v2 Sensor, 2 Battery Box

4 L Motors = 2 v2 Sensor, 2 Battery Box

v2 Sensor works best for 2 L-Motors. Every motor gets a small boost in power from the v2, but it is a very small amount and (IMO) not be worth paying 2-3 times the price. Also important to note, the V2 Receiver cannot be used for 2 or more M-Motors due to their motor's startup power requirements overloading it. If you want to run 2 M-Motors on the same output, you have to use a V1.

Also, the rechargeable battery box (I'm going to refer to it as the LiPo) vs the AAA box: The biggest difference between the two is that the LiPo delivers a pretty consistent voltage throughout, between 7-7.8 Volts during its entire power duration. The AAA box starts at 9 Volts and slowly wears down as low as 5. Starting both boxes fresh, the AAA box will deliver more power but near the end it will taper significantly lower and your performance will weaken noticeably. The LiPo will start out without quite as much "oomph", but it will be pretty much just as strong right up until the power's gone. In my experience, the LiPo's power lasts longer and it only takes about two or so hours to charge which is much quicker than the 8 or more it takes my rechargeable AAAs.

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I didn't use a turnable when I mounted a M-mount vertical with the Technic axle through one of the holes in the train base plate. It wlll work without it. I think it is a stronger connection if you use the turnable too. I was onlly held on by a technic axle in the motor and gear in the bogie frame. Also the M-motor put some turning force on the bogie. I replaced it with a PF train motor.

Whoops, I meant horizontal.Silly me. :blush: But I guess the performance will be similar for a motor inside the body, without a turntable.

The train I'm working on doesn't have the space for a turntable, or a PF or 9V train motor for that matter. Neither for a bogie-fixed motor. That's why I want to use a horizontal M-motor.

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wow thanks for all those tips and ideas guys!

There are two ways to mount a motor vertically. The first of which is to have the motor fixed inside the locomotive. The second is to have the motor fixed to the bogie, and loosely inside the locomotive, allowing it to pivot with the bogie. The first option functions the same as a sideways mounted motor. The torque of the motor will make the bogie want to spin in one direction, and may cause derailment. The second option eliminates this problem, but makes it difficult to change gear ratios.

On my recently completed Amtrak Cascades (Haven't taken photos yet), I used two L-Motors fixed vertically to the bogies. The collar of the motor sits in an octagonal hole (using cheese slopes), which allows it to spin freely, while still supporting the weight of the locomotive.

David Hensley.

won't the bogies move up and down and fall out? Edited by THERIZE

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for example, the locomotive in your first post with three-axle trucks won't actually go around curves!).

[ I just tested it, it works fine for me!

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wow thanks for all those tips and ideas guys!

won't the bogies move up and down and fall out?

While driving, gravity will keep the train body on the bogies. I think they will wobble a bit when you lift the engine off the tracks depending on the specific design.

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won't the bogies move up and down and fall out?

No, the motor widens above, and the four technic pin holes on the bottom rest on the cheese slopes. There is some play, which allows the bogie to tilt a bit on uneven track, but the motor never goes anywhere. I also have some tiles on top of the bogie to help distribute the weight, but the pin holes on the cheese slopes will support the weight while still rotating freely, as long as the cheese slopes are securely connected.

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[ I just tested it, it works fine for me!

Well, I guess it sort of does. There's a lot of friction though.

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With both, you need this piece http://brickset.com/parts/design-73603

to connect the bogies to the locomotive body.

This way, the bogies can turn independently from the direction that the drive axle is turning.

There will probably be some resistance when the bogies turn in an opposing direction to the drive axle.

Hope this helps!

Depending on the design you do not need the turntable part. Several of my engines have technic beams on the underside, since there are no studs or receivers in this case you do not need the turntable.

One big problem with using the turntable is that the powered truck can only rotate in one dimension. If you have unlevel track that can become a problem and/or cause a derailment. So in this design, I just use the base of the turntable. I don't remember if it was old or new turntables, but either should work. It provides a round bearing for the rotation without fixing the truck to the frame. Sometimes the truck can fall off of the axle, but as long as you are careful with the axle length that will only happen when picking it up (or at least that is the case for me).

Also note that these are three axle trucks. The outside axles use the plumbing o-ring solution while the middle has the thner, normal lego rubber ring. The difference in height allows the trucks to take the curves, but come to think of it, the middle axle might still cause troubles when taking the divergent track on a switch.

As for the vertical mount, my tender (link a few paragraphs up) has vertical mount motors that are fixed to a train baseplate (this approach was deliberate since it is hard to beat the train baseplate for longitudinal strength to weight ratio). Others mount the motor directly to the truck, as was the case in your original post. In this case the locomotive (or tender) is not attached to the motor and often can be lifted clean off of the motor (oh that gravity). davidzq solution is something of a hybrid, motor attached to the truck but held in place to the engine.

Still not quite, I'm afraid. I'd say it's more like this -

2 M Motors / 2 XL Motors / 1 L Motor = 1 v1 Sensor, 1 battery box

2 L Motors = 1 v2 Sensor, 1 Battery Box

4 M Motors / 4 XL Motors = 2 v2 Sensor, 2 Battery Box

4 L Motors = 2 v2 Sensor, 2 Battery Box

v2 Sensor works best for 2 L-Motors. Every motor gets a small boost in power from the v2, but it is a very small amount and (IMO) not be worth paying 2-3 times the price. Also important to note, the V2 Receiver cannot be used for 2 or more M-Motors due to their motor's startup power requirements overloading it. If you want to run 2 M-Motors on the same output, you have to use a V1.

Also, the rechargeable battery box (I'm going to refer to it as the LiPo) vs the AAA box: The biggest difference between the two is that the LiPo delivers a pretty consistent voltage throughout, between 7-7.8 Volts during its entire power duration. The AAA box starts at 9 Volts and slowly wears down as low as 5. Starting both boxes fresh, the AAA box will deliver more power but near the end it will taper significantly lower and your performance will weaken noticeably. The LiPo will start out without quite as much "oomph", but it will be pretty much just as strong right up until the power's gone. In my experience, the LiPo's power lasts longer and it only takes about two or so hours to charge which is much quicker than the 8 or more it takes my rechargeable AAAs.

I would add PF train motor

2 M Motors / 2 XL Motors / 1 L Motor / 2 PF train motors = 1 v1 Sensor, 1 battery box

With PF train motors (v1 sensor, single output, LiPo bat) I've pulled some trains with a lot of drag (long cars through the tight lego curves). The train slows down considerably in the curves due to the limited power of the motors. If the train is then allowed to speed up in a straightaway it will derail when it hits the next curve, so it likes square layouts that roughly has the train in exactly one curve at any one time.

If I set the speed too fast either the IR receiver or the battery overheats and starts dropping out (stop for a few seconds, then back to full power, separate from the train, crash!). If I start at about 2/3 of full speed no problems. However, after about an hour I need to notch the speed up one step to get back to the original speed and that lasts for about another hour. Of course I can go full speed in and out of ME 104 radius curves (sigh).

I haven't tried the v2 sensors yet, but I fear the lower start up spike could scuttle my hopes that it would allow for these trains to go a little faster without dropping out.

As for more than 2XL motors, as I've said in a few other posts, if you are not changing the gearing I am not sure you ever need more than two. In my experience the train will derail before a pair of XL motors are limited.

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