Ragnarök Now 3: Conclusion

[Lady K]

I had a blast with this game, wish I could have lived longer but I totally understand why now. I usually get my info form mafiawiki so that is what I based a townie version of a shapeshifter from.

Hinckley, I didn't even think about you being a scum shapeshifter in Ragnork II and how it would influence how you viewed my role claim. You thought I was bonkers.... ......I realized how my claim really messed with your mind in the following days and I did feel bad about that.

[Hinckley]

I had a blast with this game, wish I could have lived longer but I totally understand why now. I usually get my info form mafiawiki so that is what I based a townie version of a shapeshifter from.

Hinckley, I didn't even think about you being a scum shapeshifter in Ragnork II and how it would influence how you viewed my role claim. You thought I was bonkers.... ......I realized how my claim really messed with your mind in the following days and I did feel bad about that.

No worries. My take–away from this game is to slow down and think about things before killing. I even checked Mafiawiki and didn't find shapeshifter so I really thought you were making shit up. I was shocked to see you flip Town. But your role would've been really hard to ever use. You had to know a little bit of everything and only a perfect storm would make use of it. It was ducked, I might have mentioned, in my opinion.

[CorneliusMurdock]

I think Hinck exaggerates my involvement. We talk about other things but it's hard to change the subject when he's a bit obsessed.

Mostly my part of the conversation boils down to "there, there. It'll all be over soon". My role was more sanity keeping than scum catching.

[Hinckley]

I think Hinck exaggerates my involvement. We talk about other things but it's hard to change the subject when he's a bit obsessed.

Mostly my part of the conversation boils down to "there, there. It'll all be over soon". My role was more sanity keeping than scum catching.

Yes, Corney provided me with the constant reassurance I need in order to live. Mostly I sent him texts after lynches "Pie was Scum, right?" or "What if Adam was the traitor this whole time?" That sort of conscience.

[Pandora]

Thats one crazy dude.

You might have to narrow down who you're talking about..

I love that Pandora and I were the first options for kill. What a different game that would've been!

We should've killed Pandora, if only we knew no one was protecting her...

I wanted to kill Pandora for a while.

If you'd killed me, the game would still be going on as (nearly) nobody would be dead.

I take the fact that you guys wanted to kill me as a compliment, thank you.

Though as Adam pointed out, and I think he might've been right, a better play for you would've been to kill Hink and have Adam take the fall for it. If you'd've sworn you didn't kill him I probably would've believed you. Ah hindsight.

Yeah, I can see your point(s), but I had reasons. Not necessarily good ones.

And congrats to Pandora, Hinckley, and Adam for such a tense last day. You're all winners in my book!

Thank you Nemo, that actually means a lot.

First of all, hats off to both Hinck and Panda

And you too. Although you had me very confused when you suggested Danny might have claimed to me.

I do love my new title, by the way. Cornelius? Pandora?

Me. That's something I don't mind admitting to! I gave out a few titles this game.

Hinckley, I am sorry I didn't trust you enough to confide in you my targets. I knew who and when I targeted, but it seem to me you were fishing for too much detailed info and I found that very scummy. I think my role was great and would have been a big benefit to the town if I had been more active in the town block. Then town would have been able to keep a PR a day longer when a PR was killed.

I actually believed your claim, seeing as it was part of my role too. I wasn't going to tell that to the town block, though, sorry. I could have even used it, maybe I would have had two additional actions, because I could have very accurately predicted which townie would die at night. Sadly, though, when I said I stayed home, I actually did. Apart from the last night, obviously. Or did I....?

And for Cornelius, there was nowhere else for me to turn and most of what we talked about was "What the hell is going on in this game???"

Having been there myself, my sympathies are with Corny.

So... TinyPies, can I bring up the thorny issue of the rules 'clarification'?

At the start of the game you (obviously) sent me my role PM, and with it my win condition: that I would win when I equalled or outnumbered each opposing side. I checked with you whether I could win with either side (albeit with only one other living player) and you said yes. When the rules were 'clarified' on day 7, it became evident that both town and scum needed to kill me to win, which went against my win condition (despite being told I could win with either side). We talked about it, but you didn't really clarify it that much more for me. You said my win condition was the same, despite it being at odds with both the town and the scum win conditions. When I pressed the point you.. didn't really give me an answer and I was kinda left in limbo. I know I made my own decisions, but a lot of my earlier decisions in the game were based on me being able to win alongside another faction (and I was aware from the beginning it would have to only be one of each and any other faction), so given the 'clarification', which in itself drew unpleasant focus on me, I was left with a game strategy I had been playing that no longer was valid.

I don't want to detract from how awesome the game was, and I realise this may even sound like sour grapes, but it isn't. I'm still proud that I lasted until day eleven in a game where my killing role was outed on night one, but the rules 'clarification' caused me a lot of problems, and my win condition seemed... moveable. Sorry. I still think you're brilliant, TPRU.

[Hinckley]

So... TinyPies, ... you're brilliant, TPRU.

I had a similar experience in Unrest. My advice to future hosts, from my experience as player and host, is to be sure your win conditions are clear for all factions and make sure the rules reflect them from the beginning.

I said I thought you would have a valid gripe. I was honestly pinged a bit by your mentioning the win condition change a few times in private and seeming to push it away from TPRU's explanation.

[Dragonfire]

Yeah, ooops. Didn't it occur to you guys that either dd or Mencot could be the traitor? And when you said my misleading comments got your kill blocked, it actually made me think you had use the recruiting Action since my comments don't physically cause the block Action in the game, so that backfired on you a little. Of course, my own theorizing backfired on me and my correct assumption that you guys tried to recruit and Mist hadn't killed got lost. But ha ha, Pie. I was right!

Nope, we thought that Duvors was the traitor for quite a while, until just before Mencot died, when you revealed the writeboards in public and said that you were in contact with the other claims. And yes, we actually did attempt to recruit you on Night Two but my comment was supposed to refer to CK blocking Mist. I tried to post it before CK revealed it in-thread (he told me in private before the day started).

That was what got you investigated. It's an unfortunate side effect of Scum Perspective. There was no reason for you to think the way you did and have it match the feeling from Duvors's board, which became even more obvious when he flipped Town and therefore had to be telling the truth.

Yeah, I know right? I knew as soon as I'd hit "post" that I'd messed up - I was trying to come up with theories to appear helpful, and Scum Perspective screwed me over. I was really confused and perplexed that you seemed to think that I had to be town if Duvors was town (Duvors himself pointed that out in-thread) - I thought that I was obviously scum if Duvors was being truthful. Little did I know that it was all a ploy.

I really don't know what possessed me to keep the conversion over the kill ... I had said like 7000 times on the board that it was imperative that we keep the kill. I guess I was convinced Lady K was convertible and that I would get our kill back after the conversion.

You know what? I supported (and still support) your move to keep the conversion. Sure, it sounds detrimental to sacrifice your kill for the conversion. But logically speaking, there was only one of you left against about fifteen townies at that point, and you needed thirteen of them (plus the SK) dead in order to win. You had to convert in order to stand a chance - too bad you were unlucky in failing and then getting tracked

I even thought exactly that at one point, that the Scum had kept the conversion and couldn't get the kill back until the conversion was successful. I usually make the kill and conversion the same role since it's one or the other so that wouldn't happen. So, I still thought it was more likely the Scum were choosing to attempt conversions, but they had told me they didn't have a conversion. Plus, there were much crazier theories for me to consider and Pie and Pandora for me to scream at, so who had time for simple logic??

And you believed what I said on the writeboard? Our tactic was underestimation. You underestimated our powers of deception ( ) and you underestimated us by believing that scum-DD would post her name on the writeboard.

It sucked because I was almost entirely in the wrong on Day Eight, yet I had pretty much figured out exactly what was going on in Day Ten in regards to determining the scum were probably gone, suspecting Panda and the reason for the scum not killing, but I had completely thrown away all my credibility at that point. Things probably would've ended a lot more smoothly if it hadn't been for my accusation on Day Eight but hell, I was going to be pissed if you had just completely led along the town block again.

We were all saying on the dead-board that you and Hinck had undergone a complete role reversal. On Day Eight, you were going on about far-fetched theories while Hinck was being reasonable; on Day Ten, it was Hinckley who was going on about far-fetched theories while you were spot on

[Hinckley]

And you believed what I said on the writeboard? Our tactic was underestimation. You underestimated our powers of deception ( ) and you underestimated us by believing that scum-DD would post her name on the writeboard.

I underestimated you by believing you wouldn't be smart enough to try to incriminate Darkdragon. So there.

[Dragonfire]

I underestimated you by believing you wouldn't be smart enough to try to incriminate Darkdragon. So there.

OK, OK. Don't worry, I'm used to being underestimated

[Hinckley]

Also, it was the worst timing. As I was talking to the anonymous Scum, Darkdragon was online. She sent me a PM as I was talking to the Scum (again, I know Darkdragon isn't dumb, but figured she might feel free to PM me while talking to me on the writeboard as WIFOM) and the PM came off in all the wrong ways, unfortunately for her. She had been very sick and hadn't been paying attention to the game and a couple of things she said, which sucks because they were sincere, pinged me. She doesn't like to reveal personal conversations so I won't say what but that coupled with the trashed comment made me think she was overdoing not paying attention to make sure she wasn't vig–killed and I figured she had been so sick that she wasn't thinking clearly and accidentally posted with her real name... So, there was also the timing of that. It was really a perfect storm. She was my tracking target before any of that because, as I said, we go to conventions together and I wanted to know if I could trust her. Unfortunately, all of that other stuff happened and I switched my target to Pie. It was a good move on your part Dragonfire, even if my acting on it insults someone no matter which way you look at it.

[Darkdragon]

Yeah all the mistakes I made in the PM didn't help my case. I was just sad that I basically didn't get to play, I did try to give you some of my thoughts based on day one which was only somewhat accurate. Meh, maybe next time life won't get me killed.

[Hinckley]

Another thing about this game, maybe it's age, but I started to have a dangerous disconnect with what I knew vs. what everyone else knew. A couple of people mentioned Pandora as suspicious to me and I would think "But she killed LazyChicken" and then realize I was the only one who knew that. This is also the hardest I've tried to keep the town block separate from each other. Obviously, that's just as dangerous as revealing too much. :wacko: Everything about this game was wacko . I think it's the most I've ever used that emoticon.

Yeah all the mistakes I made in the PM didn't help my case. I was just sad that I basically didn't get to play, I did try to give you some of my thoughts based on day one which was only somewhat accurate. Meh, maybe next time life won't get me killed.

I felt so bad after you flipped Town because if I had tracked you instead we would've been on our way to working together as it would've seemed the Scum were trying to get us to kill you. But, at the same time, you were the Miller. Did you know you were the Miller? I imagine it would've been much worse if we had investigated you instead of killing you. But I don't think I knew the investigator until Day Three anyway.

[Darkdragon]

I felt so bad after you flipped Town because if I had tracked you instead we would've been on our way to working together as it would've seemed the Scum were trying to get us to kill you. But, at the same time, you were the Miller. Did you know you were the Miller? I imagine it would've been much worse if we had investigated you instead of killing you. But I don't think I knew the investigator until Day Three anyway.

Oh yes, I knew my role. I was actually pretty upset when I got it, and actually said out loud "Well, I'm useless and dead." but then later I decided what I'd do after getting investigated and lynched was to just have all my ideas and suspicions ready and try and help the town best I could in my final speech. I had not intended on PMing anyone, but you were so obviously town that when I got over being sick I knew I had to at least send my suspicions to you then.

[Hinckley]

Oh yes, I knew my role. I was actually pretty upset when I got it, and actually said out loud "Well, I'm useless and dead." but then later I decided what I'd do after getting investigated and lynched was to just have all my ideas and suspicions ready and try and help the town best I could in my final speech. I had not intended on PMing anyone, but you were so obviously town that when I got over being sick I knew I had to at least send my suspicions to you then.

Oh, cool. Did you read Unrest in the Forest? Apparently, there's a tactic for being the Miller. You're supposed to claim in your first post. I didn't know until I played that game.

So obviously Town, thank you. Apparently a lot of people thought I was Scum the whole game despite leading the Town to lynch three Scum. Poor me!

[Piratedave84]

Maybe I missed the post about this but did our Mencot-speak have anything to do with his lynch? I thought our planting the DD comment and the Mencot speak was brilliant BUT we did not coordinate our efforts and it led to our not exploiting the boards to their fullest extent.

[Hinckley]

Maybe I missed the post about this but did our Mencot-speak have anything to do with his lynch? I thought our planting the DD comment and the Mencot speak was brilliant BUT we did not coordinate our efforts and it led to our not exploiting the boards to their fullest extent.

Some of it was trying too hard and really more of a l33t speaker, but...yes? Mencot was in everyone's crosshairs already and the first night we didn't see a Scum kill he was blocked, so naturally that had to be tested. So, good work there...but he was Scum so... And I didn't think you guys meant the kill had been blocked since you blamed it on things I had said. When I first read it I thought "So, the person blocked isn't Scum" because why would someone scream "Our kill was blocked!"? Even if they are a moron. The "your misleading comments" part of the block statement just totally confused me. So, not sure if it really matters so much how successful the Mencot–speak was or not. Since more than one person was doing it, I would say it was the weakest reason he was lynched. After he flipped Scum I thought at least one of the people had been him. I almost thought that two people were doing it to hide the fact that it was him. But that was also after he flipped Scum.

[Piratedave84]

Some of it was trying too hard and really more of a l33t speaker, but...yes? Mencot was in everyone's crosshairs already and the first night we didn't see a Scum kill he was blocked, so naturally that had to be tested. So, good work there...but he was Scum so... And I didn't think you guys meant the kill had been blocked since you blamed it on things I had said. When I first read it I thought "So, the person blocked isn't Scum" because why would someone scream "Our kill was blocked!"? Even if they are a moron. The "your misleading comments" part of the block statement just totally confused me. So, not sure if it really matters so much how successful the Mencot–speak was or not. Since more than one person was doing it, I would say it was the weakest reason he was lynched. After he flipped Scum I thought at least one of the people had been him. I almost thought that two people were doing it to hide the fact that it was him. But that was also after he flipped Scum.

Yeah in hindsight we should have coordinated the writeboards better; perhaps even have handled one each rather than go all out like we did!

[Hinckley]

Yeah in hindsight we should have coordinated the writeboards better; perhaps even have handled one each rather than go all out like we did!

One contact would've seemed less like a carnival.

My first thought when seeing that two of you were pretending to be female was that there were no women on the Scum team. If only I had stuck with that five minutes later.

[Chromeknight]

Yeah Hink, if Petr hadn't flipped scum I'd've lynched you, though to be fair you'd've probably lynched yourself. After that, I'm not sure I would have lynched you. I've been thinking about why I blocked you and I really can't remember the reasoning, other than thinking it didn't really matter since likely one of us would be dead.

Much as it confused you, at least you knew where my action had gone. If I hadn't blocked you but pandora had still killed me, you might've believed her saying she was blocked.

[Hinckley]

Much as it confused you, at least you knew where my action had gone. If I hadn't blocked you but pandora had still killed me, you might've believed her saying she was blocked.

Except I would've seen you targeting Adam.

I don't remember why I targeted you either. I really didn't think there'd be another day so I almost didn't even turn an Action in. I was really annoyed there was another day and then clearly even more annoyed that you were dead. Pandora, why did you choose Chromeknight to kill over me? Was it because you still thought I was Scum? Oh, that must be it. If so, then how did you decide to go after me to lynch? Was it because I was so Scummy? Or would you have tried to get me to lynch Adam had I not posted first that you were a lying Serial Killer?

[mostlytechnic]

Yep, I was struggling the whole game to see where people thought Hinck was scum. Yes, he's good and devious and sneaky and could easily bus a fellow scummo to get himself into the town block, but 3? That's just too much.

[Hinckley]

Yep, I was struggling the whole game to see where people thought Hinck was scum. Yes, he's good and devious and sneaky and could easily bus a fellow scummo to get himself into the town block, but 3? That's just too much.

Thank you. Although it was hard to prove Dar was my doing. Also, to be fair, any game where I survive past Day Three, I end up being scrutinized. This is a true Ragnarok miracle that I survived until the end, as Town and won. If the Scum had been killing or the Serial Killer didn't have me believing she was the vig for so long, I probably wouldn't have made it.

[MagPiesRUs]

So... TinyPies, can I bring up the thorny issue of the rules 'clarification'?

At the start of the game you (obviously) sent me my role PM, and with it my win condition: that I would win when I equalled or outnumbered each opposing side. I checked with you whether I could win with either side (albeit with only one other living player) and you said yes. When the rules were 'clarified' on day 7, it became evident that both town and scum needed to kill me to win, which went against my win condition (despite being told I could win with either side). We talked about it, but you didn't really clarify it that much more for me. You said my win condition was the same, despite it being at odds with both the town and the scum win conditions. When I pressed the point you.. didn't really give me an answer and I was kinda left in limbo. I know I made my own decisions, but a lot of my earlier decisions in the game were based on me being able to win alongside another faction (and I was aware from the beginning it would have to only be one of each and any other faction), so given the 'clarification', which in itself drew unpleasant focus on me, I was left with a game strategy I had been playing that no longer was valid.

I don't want to detract from how awesome the game was, and I realise this may even sound like sour grapes, but it isn't. I'm still proud that I lasted until day eleven in a game where my killing role was outed on night one, but the rules 'clarification' caused me a lot of problems, and my win condition seemed... moveable. Sorry. I still think you're brilliant, TPRU.

As you said, your win condition was to kill off or reach parity with all the other factions. I said you could win with either side provided you achieved this, but it was still going to require you to work against both factions to do so.

I also told you that if all of the scum died, the game would continue until either you were lynched or you could fulfill your win condition. So when it became clear that you were going to outlast the scum team, I needed to clarify the rules a little.

I don't like the idea of a SK being able to win alongside another faction since it basically means that the SK will side with whichever team already has the advantage, thus making it even harder for the losing side to bounce back. I like to think of an SK as more of a balancing force, trying to keep both sides close in strength so as to snatch a victory at the end. The SK always has the hardest job in the game, which is why I usually end up rooting for them. I'm sad you just missed out on the win, you did very well to last as long as you did (especially after being tracked on the first night) and came as close as you possibly could to winning. If the scum had just killed ONE more person, you probably would have pulled it off.

Story-wise though, the others might be able to revive Petrus with magic boar meat and live happily ever after now that he has been cured of his evil bloodlust by a mace to the head...

I had a blast with this game, wish I could have lived longer but I totally understand why now. I usually get my info form mafiawiki so that is what I based a townie version of a shapeshifter from.

Hinckley, I didn't even think about you being a scum shapeshifter in Ragnork II and how it would influence how you viewed my role claim. You thought I was bonkers.... ......I realized how my claim really messed with your mind in the following days and I did feel bad about that.

I was aware that your role was going to be compared to the scum role from the last game, so sorry about that. I thought that would give you an interesting challenge, where either the town block would distrust you and lynch you, or trust you or verify you. If you had made it into the town block, you would have complemented the other roles nicely, and provided a bit of a cushion should anything unexpected happen (i.e. the vig "accidentally" killing the investigator...)

Your original role was going to be closer to the standard deputy role, but I was worried that would give the town too much of an advantage, so I weakened it a little.

[Mencot]

It was a really great and really fun game to play and follow, thanks TPRU and all the players who really made an effort better than mine (not hard ).

Really the best story and photography mafia I have seen so far, IMO, really nice. And all the funny twists in the day opening and -closings were deadfunny .

[Adam]

Reading the part of the deadboard where the scum attempted to frame Mencot as scum, then realized belatedly that he was the very scum they were looking for made me laugh out loud. This game should go down in history for its freak coincidences. The vigilante gets lynched without claiming on the first night while the serial killer takes out a scum, the scum frame the very traitor they needed, the scum try to recruit every non-recruitable PR in the game, the serial killer accidentally kills the investigator...

Part of me wishes I were some kind of scum mastermind at the end, saving the kill for a wild, unexpected victory. I wonder if the game would've progressed any differently had Dave thought I was the bomb instead of Pandora, and tried to recruit me that night.