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Ragnarök Now 3: Day Eleven

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Which did she plan? Telling me she was suspicious of you, or you asking me to make a case against her?

She can tell you. We were trying to come up with ways to get the Scum to target her. If you would've started a case against her, I would've defended her and the Scum would've thought she was an important role and targeted her and "Kablooie!" just like Nika.

You like that word then?

Yeah, :blush: it was funny. And I like when you say "What the actual megabluck?" too. :laugh: And ticketyboo.

This conversation is making me all kinds of dizzy. :wacko:

That's probably the only thing we're going to agree on.

I imagine that you'll agree that you were the Serial Killer in the conclusion, but understand that you can't now.

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Serial Killers kill anyone. Anyone who plays Mafia would know that.

Of course they do, but they don't kill scum night one and try to get scum lynched in the first couple of days for the reasons I outlined earlier.

Then came back and unvoted Cranebeinn and asked people to choose between Jarl and whoever the hell else and I voted for Jarl and a bunch of people followed and he was lynched. Yes I remember. Way to try to change history.

No, you just said you wanted a lynch and there were several people being voted for. I was the one who made the case against Jarl and started the vote.

I'm lost in a hell of quotes and responses. :wacko::ugh:

This is what it's like being in a PM conversation with you.

But I'm not insisting on anything. I'm looking into our conversation and finding potential discrepancies.

It sounds a lot like insistence, after you'd said you understood. And the discrepancies so far are in what you've been saying.

I said I believe it could be either. It is possible for you to have discerned Danr was the investigator and it is possible you thought I was Scum hiding a teammate.

You have said both of these things, but not at the same time in an 'either, or'. You're just trying to find anything to fit your silly argument, even if you're contradicting yourself.

She can tell you. We were trying to come up with ways to get the Scum to target her. If you would've started a case against her, I would've defended her and the Scum would've thought she was an important role and targeted her and "Kablooie!" just like Nika.

And you didn't tell me that at the time because....?

It's not like you don't talk much. :look:

And why didn't you get someone else to do it after I politely declined (and suggested you do just that)? Someone who maybe you'd given the reasons to?

Agnar, if you ever show up, Pudding will probably spend all night trying to convince you to see things his way. I'm exhausted, and I'm going to have dinner, as one last form of defiance against the scum-Pudding. Read my posts, see the truth, think critically, remember it's Pudding, and then remember that the game rests on your decision.

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Uh huh, but serial killers tend to target town early on, and not night kill scum or get scum lynched,

And Scum typically get half of their team lynched?

But I see your point. I don't want to get stuck on this theory like I did with Canute. But I still can't believe Agnar would be the last Scum and not have done anything on Night Nine. Maybe since Lambi was a middle range poster, you targeted him and it was a surprise he was Scum? But I even thought he was Scummy on Day One. OK. Since I can't believe Agnar would have an Action and you are a killer and I didn't kill Cranebeinn and you are denying killing him, I have to conclude that you are the Serial Killer. So, I don't know why you'd go after Scum on Day One. It would make sense for why you'd break out of the names we discussed. But Scum were dropping quickly. You haven't killed any Scum since then. Although you did start the case against Jarl. :sceptic: Yeah, this may be a good point but your insistence (and it is actually insistence) that I killed Cranebeinn when I actually did nothing, your dropping your theory that dead Cranebeinn couldn't have blocked me and not suspecting Agnar at all just give me the feeling that I'm right (and so was Canute and to an extent, Cranebeinn) that you're the Serial Killer. If Agnar could kill, don't you think he would've on Night Nine?

No, you just said you wanted a lynch and there were several people being voted for. I was the one who made the case against Jarl and started the vote.

I'm not denying that. I said you did a good job catching Scum but we were all there for that day. I think there wouldn't have been a lynch or Cranebeinn would've been lynched had I not done what I did.

It sounds a lot like insistence, after you'd said you understood. And the discrepancies so far are in what you've been saying.

I went back and looked more thoroughly and discovered that I thoroughly expressed giving a megabluck. Where's the discrepancy?

And you didn't tell me that at the time because....?

I didn't reveal the Town block to each other until Day Six. Why would I tell you who the bomb was if you could be the Serial Killer?

And why didn't you get someone else to do it after I politely declined (and suggested you do just that)? Someone who maybe you'd given the reasons to?

Because I imagine it could be somewhat transparent and how many people did I want to suggest to that I wanted them to accuse Agnar? I go to Canute and he figures out that I just wanted to defend him and he figures out that I'm trying to get the Scum to target him and therefore he's the bomb and you see what happens and you know too and now a potential Scum and the Serial Killer both know who the bomb is. You politely declined and I decided there were better uses of my time than chasing around the rest of the players, who might also decline, to try and accuse Agnar when it might possibly be giving away that he is the bomb instead of encouraging the Scum to target her and explode.

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I don't want to muddy things up with more rambling but I can't stop turning things over in my head. I'll try to be concise.

In Ragnarok I, we converted the vig to Scum. On the night he killed the last Scum he became the last Scum. It really sucked for him because he had a great game then lost despite killing all of the Scum. :sceptic: But, it's possible we've seen the same thing happen and that's why we started seeing no more killer. Maybe they had something like we did in Ragnarok I and converted our vig to neutral which would really suck for him and that's why... :cry_sad:...Oh crap, that might be why we had a different win condition on Night Six or Seven. When we had the "convert to neutral" role, it was a two-shot and as I said earlier, it was only after we lost several members that we were allowed to use the second shot to convert someone to Scum. Did they convert our vig to Serial Killer? Did they convert him to Scum? Would TPRU create a role where the Scum would convert someone to an enemy? *huh* It would truly suck to have played as well as he did at the beginning to become Scum or even Serial Killer later in the game.

My main concern with Petrus's Actions today is that they are basically an elaborate OMGUS. As I postulated earlier, perhaps she killed Cranebeinn instead of me because she thought I'd be easier to sway towards lynching Agnar than Cranebeinn would be. But then I blurted out my suspicion and she had to go after me or lose the game. If she went after Agnar and I was going after her, Agnar would likely vote for her. But, if she was the vig, I would expect her to say "Whoa. I didn't kill anybody, so let's think about what could've happened." And if she didn't need to get one of us lynched would've looked more closely at us especially after the way she responded to Agnar yesterday, calling his bomb claim Scummy.

If the Scum team somehow absorbed the vig, I imagine they would only be allowed one kill. Maybe I still have my PMs from Ragnarok I. I'll check...

I did keep all of the PMs. In one message I got two answers:

TPRU says blocks happen before kills.

We converted the vig to neutral and then to Scum and he was able to keep his kill.

Perhaps Toki and Petr converted Petrus and then he was the killer and they kept two other roles.

I know this is rambling and all of my rambling theories yesterday got us nowhere and it even got Canute killed when he was telling the truth. I just can't help but try to think it all through. I want to get it right. :cry_sad:

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No game mechanics have been changed. The win conditions were just reworded for greater clarity.

This is somewhat ambiguous. If the game mechanics had a conversion from the beginning then this wouldn't be a "change" per se to the mechanics of the entire game. Am I pushing my luck in asking if this win condition would have applied to us on Day One?

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Now would be a fantastic time to be able to say f star star k! This is exactly the position I did not want to be put in. As you've both said, the outcome of this game basically depends on who I decide to vote for. There's so much pressure I'm worried my brain will explode.

When I first opened Day 11, I saw what had happened last night and the first few shots thrown by Pudding Head and Petrus. I decided then that I would stay silent for the majority of the day. I knew that if I went in and made an opinion, any opinion at all leaning towards one person or the other, it would derail the conversation. I wanted to see the two of you argue it out so that I could gain some last-minute information. Whatever happened, there was going to be a tennis match between Pudding Head and Petrus. I didn't want to be the ball. But I've enjoyed watching this tennis match, not just because it's helped me reach a decision, but also because it's been some of the best mafia I've ever played.

I imagine the deadboard is in hysterics right now. If it turns out I've chosen poorly, I hope I won't be remembered as the dunce who lost this game for the town. I've done my very best to play this game as the best bomb I could be, and I honestly think it's been one of my strongest games.

What strikes me as both fascinating and hilarious is that if I were in either of your positions, I would've done this so much differently. Let's say Pudding Head is scum and Petrus is town. If I were Pudding Head, I probably would've killed Petrus, and relied on Cranebeinn to help lynch Agnar (me). Conversely, if Pudding Head is town and Petrus is a serial killer, I would've killed Pudding Head, and once again relied on Cranebeinn to help lynch Agnar (me).

It's this kind of hypothetical that has ultimately informed my decision more than anything else (I must sound very melodramatic right now, hyping up my vote, but if I'm going to decide this game, I'm going to do it in style). I don't think Pudding Head can be scum, because there were so many opportunities for him to win that he didn't take. At least, there were so many easier, safer ways to do this. Let's go all the way back to Day Eight, when Canute and Pudding Head had that legendary argument. Pudding Head revealed that Petr targeted Toki before Canute waged war, meaning that he couldn't have been bussing those two as a defense. If there were three scum alive that night (Pudding Head, Petr, and Toki), why bus two of your team members? There were only seven players remaining. All you'd have to do is lynch somebody else, then you're three-for-three and you've won the game. Again, if I were a scum Pudding Head in that scenario, I probably would've tried to lynch Petrus. The town block was already suspicious that he could be a serial killer.

In fact, why wouldn't Pudding Head have gone through with the plan to let you target me? That would've been a great way to get rid of two powerful townies with little to no culpability. As a side note, let's make it clear that Pudding Head certainly has a tracker ability, and Petrus certainly has a kill. It's my understanding that trackers can be scum-aligned, but they are usually town-aligned. It's pretty much accepted that the scum had a converting ability this game, so there is the chance that Pudding Head was converted, but Petrus could've been converted just as easily. Besides, I wholeheartedly denounce any game that allows a town PR to be converted to anything, especially scum. I also dislike games where the host grants one team favors in the middle of the game. All of this is my personal opinion, and has little bearing on who's town and who's not, but suffice to say I'll be very interested to learn game mechanics when this is all over.

Why not start the day by accusing me? Petrus had already attacked me for having a scummy bomb claim. If I were Pudding Head and I were scum, I could've simply said, "Cranebeinn blocked Petrus and now he's dead. Agnar, you have to be scum." There's a good chance Petrus would've gone along with it. Hell, why not lie that I'd been tracked targeting Cranebeinn? Put two nails in the coffin?

For the record, I'm voting for Petrus because I think he's a serial killer, not because I think he was converted to scum. Moving beyond hypotheticals, TPRU's admission that no game mechanics had been changed suggests to me that there was a third party during the entire game. Pudding Head makes a solid argument when it comes to Petrus killing Danr.

Vote: Petrus (Pandora)

I will be keeping a close eye on this throughout the remainder of the day to see if anything new comes up, as well as to reread the arguments from both sides.

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You read the thread as a guest for two days? :cry_sad:

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Just realized I forgot something. This is more for the benefit of our friends in the deadboard than anybody else. Several days ago, I messaged Petrus something along the lines of, "If I die and another townie dies with me, be suspicious of Pudding Head." He responded saying more or less, "Ditto." I didn't fully trust Pudding Head: I was worried that, if he were scum, he would tell the vigilante to target me, killing two townies in one blow. Hilariously, ironically, spectacularly, I messaged the worst person possible.

My biggest doubts come from that message Petrus sent me in response. He said he had been planning to tell me the same thing. Why say that, if he were a serial killer, and knew he would show up neutral if he died?

megabluck. Just checking to see if I've been given swearing privileges. This game is going to haunt my nightmares.

You read the thread as a guest for two days? :cry_sad:

:laugh: I'm not that evil. I read it when it had about four posts and I've been busy ever since. I spent the last two hours reading all of this and working through the possibilities in my head.

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Your profile said that your last login was on the 18th and this post was started on the 19th...

By the way you can swear if you put nonsense code in the middle of a word:

fu[size=4]c[/size]k

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My biggest doubts come from that message Petrus sent me in response. He said he had been planning to tell me the same thing. Why say that, if he were a serial killer, and knew he would show up neutral if he died?

Was he going to reply with "Not me. I'm the Serial Killer."?

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Vote Count

Petrus Fire-Starter (Pandora): 2 votes (Hinckley, Adam)

Pudding-Head (Hinckley): 1 vote (Pandora)

2 votes are required to lynch. 23 hours remain in the day.

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And Scum typically get half of their team lynched?

Except you didn't. You had to report Danr's result, otherwise it would have been obvious you were scum.

Reporting on Petr was to solidify you as 'town' when the entire town block was wondering if you were scum.

But I see your point. I don't want to get stuck on this theory like I did with Canute. But I still can't believe Agnar would be the last Scum and not have done anything on Night Nine.

My point is that she's not the last scum, you are.

Maybe since Lambi was a middle range poster, you targeted him and it was a surprise he was Scum?

Nope, I killed her because I thought she was scum. And he was.

But I even thought he was Scummy on Day One.

Except you didn't do a very good job of saying so. You mentioned him very briefly and then completely redirected the conversation back onto the suspicion around Tarben.

You haven't killed any Scum since then.

Funnily enough, 'since then' all the kills have been discussed with you and/or the town block. I made a mistake with Danr, and a mistake I could have denied, but I didn't.

Although you did start the case against Jarl. :sceptic: Yeah, this may be a good point but your insistence (and it is actually insistence) that I killed Cranebeinn when I actually did nothing, your dropping your theory that dead Cranebeinn couldn't have blocked me and not suspecting Agnar at all just give me the feeling that I'm right (and so was Canute and to an extent, Cranebeinn) that you're the Serial Killer.

Yes I did make the case and start the vote on Jarl, and if I hadn't he probably wouldn't have been lynched. Plus, I'd been going after Mist since day one.

And it's clear that I'm insisting you killed Cranebeinn because you started the day off saying that I 'clearly' killed him when I know I didn't. You are so sure about that that the only conclusion I can draw is that you're framing me. You and Agnar can't both be scum.

And if we're going to talk about how right Canute or Cranebeinn were then we should discuss the fact that you knew they were suspicious of you. In fact Cranebeinn messaged me asking if I would be willing to vote for you and/or kill you because both he and Canute thought you were playing us false. It was quite obvious from the silence in our group PM that we weren't happy with you, which is why you acted first to reveal your supposed 'tracking result' on Petr. You bussed him to keep yourself in the game. Canute still wasn't convinced and so still went after you anyway.

I think there wouldn't have been a lynch or Cranebeinn would've been lynched had I not done what I did.

What was it that you did? Unvote someone who'd clearly claimed to you? If you'd kept your vote on Cranebeinn after he claimed to you, he would have started talking to someone else, and someone else, and it would have become very clear how scummy you are.

I went back and looked more thoroughly and discovered that I thoroughly expressed giving a megabluck. Where's the discrepancy?

The discrepancy is in you not actually giving a megabluck, which I told you at the time.

I didn't reveal the Town block to each other until Day Six. Why would I tell you who the bomb was if you could be the Serial Killer?

Yet you were more than happy to tell Canute I was the vig, and tell both me and him that you were the tracker...

And you thought I was a serial killer on day four (which is when you sent me the message)? After I'd killed Lambi, gone after Mist, led the vote on Jarl and killed Munud the close-tie for scummiest player in the game? Yet you're happy to trust me with so much other information.

Because I imagine it could be somewhat transparent and how many people did I want to suggest to that I wanted them to accuse Agnar? I go to Canute and he figures out that I just wanted to defend him and he figures out that I'm trying to get the Scum to target him and therefore he's the bomb and you see what happens and you know too and now a potential Scum and the Serial Killer both know who the bomb is. You politely declined and I decided there were better uses of my time than chasing around the rest of the players, who might also decline, to try and accuse Agnar when it might possibly be giving away that he is the bomb instead of encouraging the Scum to target her and explode.

Then why do it like that at all?? Why not make your own case against Agnar, allow her to defend herself and then just agree with her? What was the risk? Or even make a case against her, vote for her even, and then suddenly unvote like you did with Cranebeinn? That would have been the biggest way to suggest she was a town power role.

Except all of this is hokum, because you're scum, and you knew who the power roles were and kept them alive to suggest there wasn't a leak in the town block (a leak that Cranebeinn mentioned and you said he was scummy for even mentioning).

In Ragnarok I, we converted the vig to Scum.

In Ragnarök I, I was town, and got ducked over first by the scum and then lynched by the town. Yeah, sounds familiar. Except only half of you is town (not half of Pudding, half of the two of you). In Ragnarök I there was no serial killer.

Trying to change tack and suggest I've been converted is just desperate. Everyone knows that if anyone were going to be converted then it would have been you in a heartbeat. But there was no need, because you're already scum. You just converted Toki instead as convenient lynch fodder.

My main concern with Petrus's Actions today is that they are basically an elaborate OMGUS.

It's hard to call this an OMGUS when there are only three of us left. :hmpf:

It's clear you are scum because of the way you started the day saying that I 'clearly' killed Cranebeinn when I know I didn't. Not for a second did you consider that it might have been Agnar, and yet you accuse me of not suspecting Agnar. This is why!

As I postulated earlier, perhaps she killed Cranebeinn instead of me because she thought I'd be easier to sway towards lynching Agnar than Cranebeinn would be.

I didn't kill Cranebeinn, and I'm pretty certain Cranebeinn would have been happy to lynch Agnar today.

But then I blurted out my suspicion and she had to go after me or lose the game.

But then you spewed your lies, showed your true colours and I had to go after you or lose the game for the town.

If she went after Agnar and I was going after her, Agnar would likely vote for her. But, if she was the vig, I would expect her to say "Whoa. I didn't kill anybody, so let's think about what could've happened."

This after I point out how you're buttering up Agnar in all of your posts? And it's clear I don't need to think too hard about it when you say I 'clearly' killed Cranebeinn and launch an attack on me.

And if she didn't need to get one of us lynched would've looked more closely at us especially after the way she responded to Agnar yesterday, calling his bomb claim Scummy.

Of course I need to get you lynched, because you're scum and because if I don't you'll block me and kill me, or redirect off yourself onto Agnar killing us both and you will win and we will lose.

Perhaps Toki and Petr converted Petrus and then he was the killer and they kept two other roles.

Oh, so now the argument isn't that I'm a serial killer, it's that I was the vig and got converted to scum???

How desperate are you?

This is exactly the position I did not want to be put in. As you've both said, the outcome of this game basically depends on who I decide to vote for.

Yes, and you've chosen poorly.

If it turns out I've chosen poorly, I hope I won't be remembered as the dunce who lost this game for the town. I've done my very best to play this game as the best bomb I could be, and I honestly think it's been one of my strongest games.

You can have a nice long chat with Tarben about his last trip to Belville.

What strikes me as both fascinating and hilarious is that if I were in either of your positions, I would've done this so much differently. Let's say Pudding Head is scum and Petrus is town. If I were Pudding Head, I probably would've killed Petrus, and relied on Cranebeinn to help lynch Agnar (me). Conversely, if Pudding Head is town and Petrus is a serial killer, I would've killed Pudding Head, and once again relied on Cranebeinn to help lynch Agnar (me).

So we're both wrong? :look:

It's this kind of hypothetical that has ultimately informed my decision more than anything else

Because... neither of us did what you would have done, therefore I'm the serial killer?

I don't think Pudding Head can be scum, because there were so many opportunities for him to win that he didn't take. At least, there were so many easier, safer ways to do this. Let's go all the way back to Day Eight, when Canute and Pudding Head had that legendary argument. Pudding Head revealed that Petr targeted Toki before Canute waged war, meaning that he couldn't have been bussing those two as a defense.

What you don't know, but which I have mentioned earlier in this post, is that the whole town block suspected Pudding of being scum. Like I say, to the point where Cranebeinn was messaging me privately to ask if I would be willing to vote for and/or kill Pudding (to which I answered yes and yes, for the record) and explaining to me that both he and Canute thought that Pudding was playing us false. So his 'attack' on Petr was a pre-emptive strike.

Look back and notice how Cranebeinn points out that Petr should have voted for Pudding before saying anything else. In that usual way the scum have said "Oh but please don't think badly of Pudding as you lynch me". Remember how Dar was painted as absolute town by Pudding before Pudding had to reveal the investigation result? "Oh but it was a gambit" says Pudding. To what effect? Pudding claims he knew Dar was going to be investigated, but we only have his word for it, and yes I am aware that that is my fault. You're just not seeing it Agnar.

If there were three scum alive that night (Pudding Head, Petr, and Toki), why bus two of your team members?

But there weren't. Toki, despite being scummy, hadn't been converted at that point. And if Pudding had defended any of them and I'd gone off the reservation and killed one, he would have looked scummy as megabluck. Which he already does, but you're not seeing it.

The town block was already suspicious that he could be a serial killer.

Yes and this has been festering for a long time despite there being no reason for the suspicions. And it's a convenient way to get me lynched in the endgame.

In fact, why wouldn't Pudding Head have gone through with the plan to let you target me?

There never was a plan to target you, so I don't know what you're talking about, but up until this morning he needed me around, and now he needs to lynch so.. here we are. Big up enough paranoia that I'm a serial killer and... hey look, it's working!

As a side note, let's make it clear that Pudding Head certainly has a tracker ability, and Petrus certainly has a kill.

It's clear that Pudding has a tracker ability?

His team probably had a tracker plus or minus a shapeshifter and/or rolecop. With those roles it doesn't take much to pretend to be town tracker, and even if he were tracking, it doesn't preclude him from killing.

Why not start the day by accusing me? Petrus had already attacked me for having a scummy bomb claim. If I were Pudding Head and I were scum, I could've simply said, "Cranebeinn blocked Petrus and now he's dead. Agnar, you have to be scum." There's a good chance Petrus would've gone along with it. Hell, why not lie that I'd been tracked targeting Cranebeinn? Put two nails in the coffin?

I don't think you know me, Pudding, or the way that Pudding and I interact very well if that's what you think. You are also excluding your own ability to defend yourself. I know that Pudding knows how naturally suspicious I am of him (I've referred to this already - that he made a joke about it on day one), and it's probably fair to say he'd have an easier time of convincing you to vote with him than convincing me.

For the record, I'm voting for Petrus because I think he's a serial killer, not because I think he was converted to scum.

Oh, ok. And why is that again?

Pudding Head makes a solid argument when it comes to Petrus killing Danr.

Which was what? The bit where he agreed with me? That I killed Danr because I thought he was scum and that Pudding was hiding a scummy team-mate? That bit that he said he could understand?

What about it are you still not happy with? I ask seriously, because this is important, and this seems to be the entire crux of the game right now.

Let me reiterate what I said earlier. The important point is not whether you think I'm a serial killer (but I'll say again, I'm not, I am the vig) but whether you are absolutely certain that Pudding is town. Beyond a shadow of a doubt. Remember that whatever you think of me, I cannot kill you, but he doesn't need to; he only has to achieve parity.

So, are you willing to bet the whole game on your vote, or are you willing to at least consider that even if I can't convince you I'm not a serial killer (and I'll say it again, I'm not), there is a safer option?

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Except you're trying to convince us that he blocked you. And you were ever so uppity about the fact that Crane and I were talking 'without you'.

How would I know if you two were talking without me or not? :wacko: And since the two of you were, I imagine he expressed some distrust of me. Probably enough to block me. Maybe he even told you that, leaving you free to kill knowing you wouldn't be tracked.

Except you didn't. You had to report Danr's result, otherwise it would have been obvious you were scum.

I didn't have to tell Danr to investigate Dar, which is what I did. I'm aware I can't prove that, but it is what happened. I told him to investigate Dar. He was thinking Kapmaud or Toki and wanted to wait to see what Lodmund flipped and I told him I thought even if Lodmund flipped Town, it was still likely Dar was Scum. So he targeted Dar instead. Because I convinced him to.

Reporting on Petr was to solidify you as 'town' when the entire town block was wondering if you were scum.

No. I told you, Canute and Cranebeinn via PM before reporting it in the thread and I reported it long before Canute started accusing me. Agnar even pointed that out.

Then why do it like that at all?? Why not make your own case against Agnar, allow her to defend herself and then just agree with her? What was the risk? Or even make a case against her, vote for her even, and then suddenly unvote like you did with Cranebeinn? That would have been the biggest way to suggest she was a town power role.

Again, she knows why I did it as we discussed it before I asked you.

What you don't know, but which I have mentioned earlier in this post, is that the whole town block suspected Pudding of being scum. Like I say, to the point where Cranebeinn was messaging me privately to ask if I would be willing to vote for and/or kill Pudding (to which I answered yes and yes, for the record) and explaining to me that both he and Canute thought that Pudding was playing us false. So his 'attack' on Petr was a pre-emptive strike.

But when was this? Because I didn't know anybody suspected me until Canute said it in-thread on Day Eight. And Cranebeinn never seemed to share the suspicion on the same level and neither did you. Nobody talked to me after Canute accused me but we were talking up until I revealed my result to everyone via PM at the beginning of the day. At which point Canute said we should lynch you. Are you suggesting they both suspected me of "playing them false" after Petr and Toki both turned up as Scum? The point is I revealed it before I was accused or was even aware of any suspicion.

What you need to consider, if you're not the Serial Killer, is that Adam is the one lying. I'm the Town Tracker. I'm not lying. I was blocked. You're the killer. Agnar was tracked twice doing nothing. The conclusion I reach is that you're lying. If you're telling the truth and the votes don't change, Agnar wins as Scum.

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How would I know if you two were talking without me or not?

Because you said to me you thought we were and that you assumed you were out of the loop.

Plus you could see us in PM, as the only time Cranebeinn and I were ever both around was when you were around.

:wacko: And since the two of you were, I imagine he expressed some distrust of me. Probably enough to block me. Maybe he even told you that, leaving you free to kill knowing you wouldn't be tracked.

So are you arguing that Cranebeinn suspected you or not?

You say I killed him because he would want to lynch me over you, but you try to claim he blocked you because he found you more of a threat than me. I don't think you were blocked at all, I think Cranebeinn logically blocked the only known killer - but as I've already said, I stayed home last night so I don't know for sure. You claiming to be blocked is your way of claiming that you couldn't possibly have murdered Cranebeinn because, y'know, you were blocked.

I didn't have to tell Danr to investigate Dar, which is what I did. I'm aware I can't prove that, but it is what happened. I told him to investigate Dar. He was thinking Kapmaud or Toki and wanted to wait to see what Lodmund flipped and I told him I thought even if Lodmund flipped Town, it was still likely Dar was Scum. So he targeted Dar instead. Because I convinced him to.

Nobody knows what you said to Danr, so you could have told him you shat rainbows and we'd never know. But the very first post of day five is you saying that if you were wrong about Lodmund then you were 'wrong' about Dar, implying you thought he was town. I even brought it up at the time. Unfortunately for you Danr then reported to you that Dar had been investigated as scum, so you had to backtrack. In fact that was the day that Danr looked the most scummy.

No. I told you, Canute and Cranebeinn via PM before reporting it in the thread and I reported it long before Canute started accusing me. Agnar even pointed that out.

But you already knew by how the 'town block' PM had wound down that you were suspected.

Again, she knows why I did it as we discussed it before I asked you.

So that means you can't explain to me why you didn't just accuse her in the thread and have her defend herself; or accuse her and then suddenly backtrack like she just claimed to you?

And Cranebeinn never seemed to share the suspicion on the same level and neither did you.

Except the penultimate message he sent me was that he was at the point where he was ready to lynch you, and the last message said he could see a play where you bussed your teammates to solidify your place in town. Especially, he mused, considering there was no-one left to convert.

Nobody talked to me after Canute accused me but we were talking up until I revealed my result to everyone via PM at the beginning of the day. At which point Canute said we should lynch you.

Nobody talked to you because everyone suspected you might be scum. Canute very clearly said he suggested lynching me on day eight to see how you reacted to him suggesting someone else.

Are you suggesting they both suspected me of "playing them false" after Petr and Toki both turned up as Scum? The point is I revealed it before I was accused or was even aware of any suspicion.

I'm not suggesting it, I'm telling you it's true.

What you need to consider, if you're not the Serial Killer, is that Adam is the one lying. I'm the Town Tracker. I'm not lying. I was blocked. You're the killer. Agnar was tracked twice doing nothing. The conclusion I reach is that you're lying. If you're telling the truth and the votes don't change, Agnar wins as Scum.

No Pudding. In the first two posts of today you said I 'clearly' killed Cranebeinn (when I know I didn't) and you launched a full-scale attack on me, with the clear intent to get me lynched. As you said yourself, if you were town you would have thought about things, considered other possibilities, but you didn't, you came straight at me. As I am faced with that, and not a reasonable discussion from you, the only logical conclusion I can draw is that you are scum trying to achieve that last push to win the game. You and Agnar cannot both be scum. You're trying to get me to change my vote to Agnar, and maybe then you'll suddenly come up with some crack-pot theory of why Agnar is the criminal mastermind behind all of this and vote for her. And then you win. Or maybe you won't, but Agnar might unvote me, so you get a no-lynch and you just kill me anyway (or redirect me onto Agnar, which would be easier). And then you win. The only way town can win is by voting for you. So I don't need to consider that at all.

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Let me throw this out there to either further solidify Agnar's choice or to make Petrus think twice about this if he is, in fact, the vig.

It's Day Eight and there are seven people left. If I'm Scum, then there is Me, Toki and Petr vs. Agnar, Cranebeinn, Canute and Petrus. For whatever reason I decided to bus Petr (and Toki), let's just assume for argument's sake I do that.

So I go to the Town PRs and say "Petr is Scum. He was targeting Toki after claiming vanilla".

The protector says "Let's lynch the vig."

Why wouldn't I just say "Ok."?

Maybe it's too late. Maybe since I already revealed a finding on Petr, I don't want to risk being caught by agreeing to kill the vig when I've already revealed my Action implicates Petr. Maybe I'm even afraid it's a sting to test me.

But then, the Town comes up with a plan to not lynch at all.

Why do I go insane getting Petr lynched at that point?

Why don't I go into the Night Phase with three Scum and four Town and block Petrus and kill Cranebeinn or Canute? And win?

I'm not defending myself when I reveal my result on Petr, nobody has accused me at that point, and there's no reason for a Scum to try and solidify trust with the Town block when there are seven people left and just one mislynch away from winning. If I were Scum and took the actions I've taken in this game, I'd be the worst Scum ever.

Nobody knows what you said to Danr, so you could have told him you shat rainbows and we'd never know. But the very first post of day five is you saying that if you were wrong about Lodmund then you were 'wrong' about Dar, implying you thought he was town. I even brought it up at the time. Unfortunately for you Danr then reported to you that Dar had been investigated as scum, so you had to backtrack. In fact that was the day that Danr looked the most scummy.

If I was wrong about Lodmund, I must be wrong about Dar.

But then again, now that we know Lodmund was telling the (very bizarre) truth, it still is strange that Dar had the same idea about what I said that the Scum did. And then there was Dar's admission that the similarity was damning when he tried to suggest Lodmund was Scum and was trying to frame him. But I'm less confident about it today than I was yesterday considering I was so off on Lodmund.

It sounds like you're purposely taking that out of context as you can see I also make a case against him at the same time. But let's look at a paraphrased conversation with me and Danr.

By my time zone, the above quote is on July 25, 8:28 am

July 25, 8:14 am: Danr: You were right! Dar is Scum.

July 25, 8:44 am: Me: Yes! :grin: Cranebeinn targeted who he said he was going to.

July 25, 8:45 am: Me: Double Post: When should we reveal the result? We don't want a day where we can't draw people out because they have the easy vote on Dar.

July 25, 8:52 am: Danr: Wait until at least voting starts.

July 25, 8:54 am: I'm trying to set his guard down in-thread, maybe I can get something out of him in private.

______

And it continues until he's murdered.

I know it was somewhat of a silly plan to try and draw him out. What was he going to do, relax and tell me who his Scum team was? :blush: But I was trying to get suspicions off of him to see if I could glean anything from what he said.

But you already knew by how the 'town block' PM had wound down that you were suspected.

Well, 1. What is there to discuss when I think everyone is going to lynch Petr because he lied? So nobody talking didn't clue me into the suspicions at all. I was taken completely by surprise... and 2. I was house and dog sitting and swimming all day and actually didn't just sit by the group PM waiting for people to say things.

So that means you can't explain to me why you didn't just accuse her in the thread and have her defend herself; or accuse her and then suddenly backtrack like she just claimed to you?

I didn't think of it. :laugh: What's to explain? My point is that Agnar can look at the exact messages where we came up with this particular plan. So what if I didn't mimic the exact thing that happened with Cranebeinn? How does that seem Scummy? It just proves I didn't think of it as a tactic. I was still trying to come up with ways to kill Scum.

I'm not suggesting it, I'm telling you it's true.

So, after Petr and Toki turned up Scum? They were still suspecting me and not talking to me? Cranebeinn talked to me a lot. You know that. Some of it was in a conversation with you.

I never tried to talk to Canute in private again after voting started on Day Eight.

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Let me throw this out there to either further solidify Agnar's choice or to make Petrus think twice about this if he is, in fact, the vig.

It's Day Eight and there are seven people left. If I'm Scum, then there is Me, Toki and Petr vs. Agnar, Cranebeinn, Canute and Petrus. For whatever reason I decided to bus Petr (and Toki), let's just assume for argument's sake I do that.

So I go to the Town PRs and say "Petr is Scum. He was targeting Toki after claiming vanilla".

The protector says "Let's lynch the vig."

Why wouldn't I just say "Ok."?

Maybe it's too late. Maybe since I already revealed a finding on Petr, I don't want to risk being caught by agreeing to kill the vig when I've already revealed my Action implicates Petr. Maybe I'm even afraid it's a sting to test me.

But then, the Town comes up with a plan to not lynch at all.

Why do I go insane getting Petr lynched at that point?

Why don't I go into the Night Phase with three Scum and four Town and block Petrus and kill Cranebeinn or Canute? And win?

I'm not defending myself when I reveal my result on Petr, nobody has accused me at that point, and there's no reason for a Scum to try and solidify trust with the Town block when there are seven people left and just one mislynch away from winning. If I were Scum and took the actions I've taken in this game, I'd be the worst Scum ever.

It was evident, from the paucity of posts in the 'town block' PM that something was amiss. You weren't being talked to anywhere near as much as you had been, so you realised you were suspected.

The town didn't come up with a plan to 'not lynch' at all. The plan was to lynch you, but you wriggled your way out of it.

You 'went insane' to lynch Petr, because the other lynch candidate was you. There's no way Petr could pull off what you're pulling off, so it had to be you that lived.

And I don't think (despite his scumminess) that Toki had been converted to scum at that point. So there never were three scum and four town, and you couldn't have won at that point. The only thing you could do was convert Toki and buy yourself some time.

You never were just one mislynch from victory, that (and you knowing you were suspected) is why you had to try to solidify you town persona. Cranebeinn was still ready to lynch you after you bussed your teammates.

And you wouldn't be the worst scum ever, because here you still are, on the very cusp of winning. That's what it's all been about. Remembering that it's a team game, so as long as one scum survives and wins, it's a win for the rest.

Nice that you're willing to consider I am actually the vig, as I keep saying. Would it be too much to hope you'd unvote me? :look:

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No Pudding. In the first two posts of today you said I 'clearly' killed Cranebeinn (when I know I didn't) and you launched a full-scale attack on me, with the clear intent to get me lynched. As you said yourself, if you were town you would have thought about things, considered other possibilities, but you didn't, you came straight at me. As I am faced with that, and not a reasonable discussion from you, the only logical conclusion I can draw is that you are scum trying to achieve that last push to win the game. You and Agnar cannot both be scum. You're trying to get me to change my vote to Agnar, and maybe then you'll suddenly come up with some crack-pot theory of why Agnar is the criminal mastermind behind all of this and vote for her. And then you win. Or maybe you won't, but Agnar might unvote me, so you get a no-lynch and you just kill me anyway (or redirect me onto Agnar, which would be easier). And then you win. The only way town can win is by voting for you. So I don't need to consider that at all.

If I were Scum, why would I try to get you to change your vote to Agnar when you are already being lynched?

I've laid out my reasoning for believing you killed Cranebeinn very clearly. You have provided no discussion. In my first post, I voiced my reasoning behind suspecting you. Your idea that it is a "full–scale attack" is Serial Killer PerspectiveTM.

I'm not Scum. I am Town. If you are Town and you get lynched, Agnar (and by association the Scum team) wins. I'm Town.

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It sounds like you're purposely taking that out of context as you can see I also make a case against him at the same time. But let's look at a paraphrased conversation with me and Danr.

A weak case, sandwiched between you saying you think Dar's town.

July 25, 8:14 am: Danr: You were right! You shit rainbows

July 25, 8:44 am: Me: Yes! :grin: I love shitting rainbows

July 25, 8:45 am: Me: Double Post: When should I shit another rainbow? We don't want a day where we can't shit rainbows.

July 25, 8:52 am: Danr: Wait until at least until the urge to shit.

July 25, 8:54 am: I'm trying to shit a rainbow, maybe I can get something out.

You could say that Danr said absolutely anything.

Well, 1. What is there to discuss when I think everyone is going to lynch Petr because he lied? So nobody talking didn't clue me into the suspicions at all. I was taken completely by surprise... and 2. I was house and dog sitting and swimming all day and actually didn't just sit by the group PM waiting for people to say things.

If people don't respond to you you send them angry messages asking where the megabluck they've all gone, that's what you do. Unless you have a guilty conscience or fear you've been spotted as scum. Oh, and the thing to discuss would have been what we all thought Petr was doing to a very alive Toki.

I didn't think of it. :laugh: What's to explain? My point is that Agnar can look at the exact messages where we came up with this particular plan. So what if I didn't mimic the exact thing that happened with Cranebeinn? How does that seem Scummy? It just proves I didn't think of it as a tactic. I was still trying to come up with ways to kill Scum.

It strikes me as a crazy way to try to get the scum to target Agnar, by asking me, specifically me and only me, to make a case against her in the thread, so that you could defend her and blah blah.. when there are other and easier ways of doing that. That don't involve me randomly making a case against someone in the thread, that you later deny you asked me to because it was a crazy idea to begin with and there were clearly easier ways of doing it.

So, after Petr and Toki turned up Scum? They were still suspecting me and not talking to me? Cranebeinn talked to me a lot. You know that. Some of it was in a conversation with you.

Like I said, penultimate message to me was to say he was ready to lynch you, last message to me was to say he could see a play where you were bussing your team to solidify you as town.

If I were Scum, why would I try to get you to change your vote to Agnar when you are already being lynched?

Because you worry there's a possibility that Agnar might see the truth of what I'm saying and vote for you with me.

I've laid out my reasoning for believing you killed Cranebeinn very clearly. You have provided no discussion. In my first post, I voiced my reasoning behind suspecting you. Your idea that it is a "full–scale attack" is Serial Killer PerspectiveTM.

It wasn't reasoning, it was a firm stance that I 'clearly' killed Cranebeinn and in your second post you make a case against me. This isn't serial killer perspective at all, you're basically saying I'm being defensive when I'm defending myself against a lynch that will lose us the game. :laugh:

I'm not Scum. I am Town. If you are Town and you get lynched, Agnar (and by association the Scum team) wins. I'm Town.

Yeah, saying you're town over and over doesn't seem to work. I should know, I've tried it a million times. In the unlikely event that Aganr is scum and you're town (and Pernilla starts flying), then our loss is entirely on you.

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Except the penultimate message he sent me was that he was at the point where he was ready to lynch you, and the last message said he could see a play where you bussed your teammates to solidify your place in town. Especially, he mused, considering there was no-one left to convert.

Cranebeinn was still ready to lynch you after you bussed your teammates.

Doesn't it stand to reason that he would block me, then? I could see Cranebeinn saying something like "If you're going to stay home then I'll block Pudding. If anyone is killed we'll know it's Agnar."

If he wanted to lynch me today, don't you think he'd block me last night?

He said this to the two of us right before the day started:

"There aren't many actions left to coordinate.

Either Petrus kills me or you (Or Agnar?)

I could block her or not (or Agnar or you)

You could track the kill or block and hope to catch someone scumming it up

It's a bit redundant now with four people left"

Nice that you're willing to consider I am actually the vig, as I keep saying. Would it be too much to hope you'd unvote me? :look:

It would be easier if you weren't trying so hard to make me out to be Scum and not looking into Agnar at all. As I've said, it's hard to see Agnar as Scum as I tracked him twice doing nothing. I suppose it would be really hard for you to claim to believe me and suspect Agnar because if you believe me then you have to admit he did nothing on Night Nine. :sceptic: If he held off on killing on Night Nine to cause this tension between us then he's done a great job but I would think the two of us seemed the closest after being accused by Canute together and then voting together and seeming to share the same suspicions. You just seem more likely to be the person lying at this point. I've looked at the things Agnar said. I thought it was a little weird that he chose to watch us before posting. Like he wanted the tension to build so he wouldn't be suspect. He seemed to do the same thing on Day Eight. But the explanation he gave about distracting the information we were providing makes sense and it appears he was talking with Cranebeinn privately on Day Eight.

I'm really nervous. I know I'm Town. Whoever is lynched, it ends the game. Even a no lynch, there's no tomorrow. I was really surprised to see a kill at all. But as I've said several times, we all know you have a Night Kill. I have evidence that Adam didn't do anything on Night Nine and it's highly likely he would've with only four people left and that he could've if he were Scum since there can't be more than one Scum left. But I truly believe that there's a Serial Killer and I didn't want that to be the case. I was worried about it and probably should've voted with Cranebeinn and Canute yesterday but I really wanted to win together. I'm sure the Town will want to kill me for that and I have to be a good sport and fully admit...that it's all Canute's fault. If he hadn't flipped out I wouldn't have gotten tunnel vision on him. I really thought he was Scum. Like I said, the rule change and some of the things you said were really nagging at me yesterday but I was convinced Canute was Scum. Now I'm rambling again. I'm thinking about this game too much. :hmpf: I should be working and packing. I'm so far behind. This game shouldn't have lasted over a month. :wall:

You could say that Danr said absolutely anything.

I could but I'm not. That's what was said at the times they were said.

That don't involve me randomly making a case against someone in the thread, that you later deny you asked me to because it was a crazy idea to begin with and there were clearly easier ways of doing it.

:wacko: Huh? I didn't deny that. I know I asked you to. Agnar knows why. We discussed it before I asked you. That was the plan. Sorry you think it was so stupid. :sceptic:

It wasn't reasoning, it was a firm stance that I 'clearly' killed Cranebeinn and in your second post you make a case against me. This isn't serial killer perspective at all, you're basically saying I'm being defensive when I'm defending myself against a lynch that will lose us the game. :laugh:

But wouldn't anybody think it was you? You're the only one with a kill ability. And I still don't understand why assuming that the killer killed the killee automatically makes me Scum. Am I supposed to deny the result of my own Action and think that someone I tracked twice in the game who was doing nothing both times even after all the possible Scum were dead suddenly gained the ability to kill?

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Let me reiterate what I said earlier. The important point is not whether you think I'm a serial killer (but I'll say again, I'm not, I am the vig) but whether you are absolutely certain that Pudding is town. Beyond a shadow of a doubt. Remember that whatever you think of me, I cannot kill you, but he doesn't need to; he only has to achieve parity.

So, are you willing to bet the whole game on your vote, or are you willing to at least consider that even if I can't convince you I'm not a serial killer (and I'll say it again, I'm not), there is a safer option?

What is that safer option?

It strikes me as a crazy way to try to get the scum to target Agnar, by asking me, specifically me and only me, to make a case against her in the thread, so that you could defend her and blah blah.. when there are other and easier ways of doing that. That don't involve me randomly making a case against someone in the thread, that you later deny you asked me to because it was a crazy idea to begin with and there were clearly easier ways of doing it.

However stupid it was, it was a plan that we came up with and I consented to.

My biggest doubt involves Cranebeinn blocking Pudding Head. It's the most glaring hole here, and it's giving me headaches. In the last few posts, you have said that Cranebeinn was still suspicious of Pudding Head, which seems to support the idea that he would block him. But why would he vote for you yesterday, then block Pudding Head at night? This question is for both of you.

Furthermore... to the both of you, do you believe the scum had a recruiter who could recruit anyone, that they had a recruiter who could recruit just vanilla townies, or that there was one or more traitors who could be recruited? Or something else?

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I think that they were completely transparent about it and could only recall a traitor as they told us on their writeboards. Why else would two Scum confess? Would they go out of their way to sow discord amongst us and have us questioning each other throughout the game? Right now I'm terrified that you were the traitor and your writeboard and your plan to have people claim was an elaborate and well–thought–out ruse that will certainly pay off if you win. You did tell me to tell them that you were just stringing them along so I could win favor with them. Saying this now is so fruitless as if I'm right, Petrus won't be awake before the day ends and I can't do anything about it if I think it's true. For this to be true, you would've had to have a writeboard with them and then tell them to create another fake one. So you would've had to have two writeboards. And it would only stand to reason that the traitor would be the last member to inherit the kill. Again, I think you would've used it on Night Nine. I'm not sure you would've been able to count on this situation just by waiting one night. And I've written down all the possibilities. Killing one of us would've implicated me or Petrus so I think you could've gotten one of us lynched (with little effort) by just killing someone on Night Nine. The four enough had enough tension after Day Eight that you could've taken advantage. Perhaps if you did choose not to kill it was a conservative Scum play. I have been obsessing over all of these scenarios today.

The conversion to neutral then to Scum that was allowed in the first game fills in the answers for some lingering questions but it feels silly to even say it sometimes. The change in our win conditions bugs me. The fact that it happened before I caught Petr makes me think that if there were conversions they were complete before that night.

I imagine they had something. That's the weakest statement I've made all game. I'm very weary after considering all possibilities. I'm looking forward to the game being over. All I know for sure is that I'm Town. Petrus as the Serial Killer is my best guess. If you were the traitor or Scum the whole time, great job. I'll be annoyed to have put so much time in and lose but I'll get over that and will just be glad the game is over.

As far as the block goes, I assume I was unsuccessful because Cranebeinn blocked me. He blocked Petrus on Night Nine when they did not seem to be suspicious of each other. That was the night where he came up with the plan to have him block Petrus and me track you so that any kill that occurred would be attributed to Scum. It only follows to mix it up the following night and block me to be sure. He's very methodical and tries to cover as many bases as possible so I could see the plan being, Petrus stay home (assuming he would) and block me to ensure if there was a kill we could rule me out. Petrus seems to think he would've wanted to lynch me today. I didn't think there would be a today but I didn't get that feeling from him. All I know for certain is that my Action was not successful. It would've been great if it had been because I was tracking Cranebeinn and if he had blocked you or Petrus I would know for sure which one of you to vote for today.

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Vote Count

Petrus Fire-Starter (Pandora): 2 votes (Hinckley, Adam)

Pudding-Head (Hinckley): 1 vote (Pandora)

With a majority of 2 votes, Petrus Fire-Starter has been lynched. A conclusion will be posted soon. Please send in your night actions within the next 24 hours. (or don't, I can probably guess what you're going to do anyway)

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As the sun began to set, shadows loomed over Valhalla.

IMG_2857_zpscwmm5mm7.jpg

The einherjar had little time to prepare a defense. For much of the day, they had been busy arguing among themselves. However, Pudding-Head and Agnar Skull-Smasher eventually came to the conclusion that Petrus Fire-Starter (Pandora) must be the last warrior to be corrupted by the chaos that Ragnarok had wrought.

IMG_2861_zpstu0li5b1.jpg

The lynching party was interrupted however by a great rumbling in the distance...

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"Prepare yourselves, my warriors!" Kára bellowed, "the Jötnar have arrived at last!"

IMG_2867_zpssat76wgt.jpg

The skies darkened as the fire giants approached. The einherjar rushed to the wall to await their enemy.

IMG_2832_zpsrklv8xdz.jpg

As the warriors of Valhalla steeled themselves for combat, Pernilla the Pig slipped out into the night. As she escaped, she said her parting farewell: "oink oink!"

IMG_2838_zps8aggawvz.jpg

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